Protesters in Ukraine remind us of the priceless benefits of being EU members

[Muzh]

Doug, it is important to read that document carefully.  (And note that China and France signed on later).

The document does not commit the USA to help Ukraine fight against those who attack or invade Ukraine.

The document only states that the signing countries themselves will not attack or invade Ukraine.  Thus, only Russia has violated the agreement.

The document does state that the signing countries will "seek immediate United Nations Security Council action to provide assistance to Ukraine, as a non-nuclear-weapon State party to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons, if Ukraine should become a victim of an act of aggression or an object of a threat of aggression in which nuclear weapons are used;"

So even in the current case, since no nuclear weapons used, USA is not even obligated to seek UN help.

In short, USA never signed anything saying it would help Ukraine in the event of an attack or invasion . . . USA only said it would not be the country to attack or invade Ukraine.

= = = = = = = = =

Now . . . completely aside from this "Budapest Memorandum" . . . the USA and any other country can provide any and all assistance to Ukraine that it chooses . . . with some understanding of the consequences.

The document does state:
 
The Russian Federation, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the United States of America reaffirm their obligation to refrain from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of Ukraine, and that none of their weapons [doesn't specify, nuclear nor conventional] will ever be used against Ukraine except in self-defence or otherwise in accordance with the Charter of the United Nations
 
and
 
Ukraine, the Russian Federation, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the United States of America will consult in the event a situation arises that raises a question concerning these commitments
 
I guess this may explain the lack of insignias on the Russian soldiers, er... Crimean self-defense people shopping at the army-navy surplus stores.
 
So there you have it. The Russian Federation has kept its end of the bargain.
 
Edit so the following rhetorical question is not construed it was directed at ML but to the public in general.
 
Anyway, what's a piece of paper? A device used to wipe your ass, no?

[jone]

No need for me to do so.  My Sh&t don't stink.   

[BillyB]

The document does state that the signing countries will "seek immediate United Nations Security Council action to provide assistance to Ukraine, as a non-nuclear-weapon State party to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons, if Ukraine should become a victim of an act of aggression or an object of a threat of aggression in which nuclear weapons are used;"

So even in the current case, since no nuclear weapons used, USA is not even obligated to seek UN help.

In short, USA never signed anything saying it would help Ukraine in the event of an attack or invasion . . . USA only said it would not be the country to attack or invade Ukraine.

ML, you're not reading it correctly. Certain countries, including America, are obligated to seek "action" through the UN if Ukraine is a victim of an act of aggression. This doesn't just pertain to nuclear aggression. Read the "or" in there.


The problem is when consulting with the UN to seek action by sanctions or by military, Russia, who happens to be Ukraine's aggressor holds a veto card. Russia has a free pass to do whatever they want against the rules and veto any UN action against them. But, nowhere in the in the document does it say America must refrain from any action outside of the UN if Ukraine is a victim of aggression.


Now it's easy for people to dismiss their country's responsibilities when there are signs of trouble and blame it on Russia's veto power in UN or unclear wording in a document, but it's clear to me, America is supposed to provide security and protect Ukraine when they are victims of aggression. We're supposed to go through the UN first but it doesn't require us to accept the UN's decision.


Right now Ukraine is begging the West for help. If we don't show we're trustworthy and reliable, they may just tell Russia, "Keep your troops back, we'll run this country the way you want."

[ML]

ML, you're not reading it correctly. Certain countries, including America, are obligated to seek "action" through the UN if Ukraine is a victim of an act of aggression. This doesn't just pertain to nuclear aggression. Read the "or" in there.

No, sorry Billy, you are reading the 'or' it wrong.

". . . seek immediate United Nations . . . if Ukraine should become a victim of an act of aggression or an object of a threat of aggression in which nuclear weapons are used . . ."

Under your interpretation the two parts could stand alone as follows:

1) . . . seek immediate United Nations . . . if Ukraine should become a victim of an act of aggression

2) . . . seek immediate United Nations . . . if Ukraine should become . . . an object of a threat of aggression in which nuclear weapons are used

This allows for symmetrical treatment of acts of aggression (by any means) vs asymmetrical treatment of threats from nuclear vs non-nuclear.

= = = = =

But as I said, I support USA in taking action on general principles outside the Budapest Memorandum.

[krimster2]

On the banks of the Dnieper, such a lovely sight to see
are the six big reactors of the Запорізька АЕС
now Chernobyl had but four, but they’re the most famous in the nation
because one reactor melted and started spewing radiation
but Zaporizhia has a six-gun and they’re starting to take aim
and when they pull the trigger, the world will see the flame

[Faux Pas]

The document does state:
 
The Russian Federation, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the United States of America reaffirm their obligation to refrain from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of Ukraine, and that none of their weapons [doesn't specify, nuclear nor conventional] will ever be used against Ukraine except in self-defence or otherwise in accordance with the Charter of the United Nations
 
and
 
Ukraine, the Russian Federation, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the United States of America will consult in the event a situation arises that raises a question concerning these commitments
 
I guess this may explain the lack of insignias on the Russian soldiers, er... Crimean self-defense people shopping at the army-navy surplus stores.
 
So there you have it. The Russian Federation has kept its end of the bargain.
 
Edit so the following rhetorical question is not construed it was directed at ML but to the public in general.
 
Anyway, what's a piece of paper? A device used to wipe your ass, no?

Yes, those are *cough* Crimea self defense forces protecting ethnic Russia from the rash of Ukrainian Nazi hate crimes. *cough* Putin has denied all along that Russia has invaded Ukraine. *cough wink cough* Obviously Putin is a man of his word, no? *cough* Even the Russian media machine says it Crimeans standing up against the Nazis of the illegitimate government. *cough* Who can deny this? Afterall, it was on TV.

My MIL has apparently caught the Putin fever as well. Although my wife and her sister both see him as the evil dictator.

[Dewed]

seems oddly apt

[Noch1]

Considering Ukraine's financial problems, this is not a consideration now.
But because of all this, they will likely get more help in many areas faster.
Should they consider in the future, in better financial times.
TO build new Nuclear weapons? I mean they can't build a forces big enough
to stop RUssia, but likely are crazy enough to pull the trigger on a NUK
SO if ya have them, people tend to think twice before stealing things

[BillyB]

No, sorry Billy, you are reading the 'or' it wrong.

You do have a point and anybody can read the Budapest Memorandum on Security Assurances in whichever way they see fit. Lots of holes in there if what has been supplied at the forum so far is the full version. Even if nuclear weapons were used against Ukraine, all America is responsible for is seeking action through the UN to provide Ukraine with assistance and that action doesn't state it has to be military or sanctions against the aggressors of Ukraine. We could ask the UN to throw a goodbye party for Ukraine to ease their pain but lets be real, security assurances, to most people, means guaranteed protection.


Because of the language used in the Budapest Memorandum, Ukraine basically signed an agreement that a used car salesman wrote but does America want to be known as a used car salesman? Do we want to give Iran and North Korea the impression that the deals we're trying to make with them will be as solid and clear as the deal we made with Ukraine? Do we want to give our friends the impression that we could turn our backs on them when they're in trouble although we previously signed security agreements?


Russia broke their agreement with Ukraine. They didn't apply nuclear threats but other nations still have the right to petition the UN to punish Russia by sanctions or military means. Of course that won't happen because Russia has a veto so it's up to each and every nation to decide on whether or not they want to MAN up outside of the UN. America could stand up and be accused of sticking their nose in Ukraine's business but one thing will be certain, America will gain respect from our friends and enemies.

[Dewed]

it would be beyond stupid and crazy for Russia to use nukes so close to their Western border, unless they spin the sudden increase in cancer and lung disease of their Western population as an attack from the West...   It wouldn't be the first time a government has basically attacked itself, then blamed it on "the enemy"

Are they that crazy and stupid? and if so, it seems with their propaganda machines already primed and running smoothly, the majority of Russian citizens would believe it and support "retaliation"

stop the planet.. I think I'd like to get off now.

[pokerintherear]

It seems Ukraine the country has been eerily quiet. Calm before the storm?
   

[BillyB]

It seems Ukraine the country has been eerily quiet. Calm before the storm?
 

If I remember correctly, there's a presidential election in Ukraine in a couple of months. Putin may attempt to take Ukraine by influencing the election at that time. The world will forget what happened in Crimea in two months anyway so it'll be a good time for his next move. Ukraine is currently taking aggressive steps to get into NATO. Putin may have to act before the Presidential election.

[krimster2]

yes another "Russki Babooshki" video, poor elderly Russians just want to be with Russia to have a decent life, they are pure, noble souls these Babooshki...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=c3snoUfoTd0

[Ranetka]

I wish people stop quoting Budapest memorandum which has never been ratified by either of the parties and therefore not worth paper it's written on....

[krimster2]

a Crimean Tatar and a Russian occupier walk into a bar, well actually it was just the Tatar and he walked into it with his head - repeatedly....

http://maidantranslations.com/2014/03/18/fallen-crimean-tatar-reshat-ametov-simferopol/



In other words, how big of a weapons cache could a Tatar stash?
If a Tatar could stash a weapons cache?
Stay tuned tomorrow for the surprising answer

Meanwhile in Simpheropol, first Ukrainian defenders shot by Russians, at least one dead, more injured

 

[BillyB]

I wish people stop quoting Budapest memorandum which has never been ratified by either of the parties and therefore not worth paper it's written on....

The Budapest Memorandum is signed by countries such as America and Russia allowing Ukraine to be a party to the Helsinki Final Act and Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons which have been ratified. Does the acceptance of a new country into those treaties need a whole new ratification process? I couldn't find the answer to that.


Maybe Bill Clinton deserves the name "Slick Willy" because he purposely signed a document that doesn't back up his word? That means Ukraine isn't tied to it's obligations on that worthless piece of paper either. If I were Ukraine, I'd try to get my nukes back and fire up the reactors for new nukes.


I believe Bill Clinton didn't do anything tricky and he legally signed the Budapest Memorandum which America and Russia are obligated to honor. Not all international agreements have to be ratified to be legal. The President of the United States has the right to make executive agreements with other nations on his own without senate approval according to the link below.


http://www.law.asu.edu/library/RossBlakleyLawLibrary/ResearchNow/ResearchGuides/TreatiesandInternationalAgreements.aspx


Lately, people have argued the Budapest Memorandum is a reason why America should get involved with Ukraine but it doesn't mean it's the only legal reason.

[krimster2]

      On your knees

      Heroes don't die

[krimster2]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=ffYW3nlBwZk   On your knees!
   heros don't die

[lordtiberius]

not worth paper it's written on....

You know what else is not worth the paper it's written on? 

promises made by Russia . . .

You will reap what you sow lady

[die_cast]

Die_Cast, doesn't it bother you that Poland and Latvia and Lithuania and Estonia all have higher standards of living than does Russia?

Oh, I didn't know I look like Alexey Ulyukaev.  No, it doesn't bother me, it's not my job. 

It would bother the hell out of me.

It seems many things bother the hell out of you... may be you should visit a doctor? 

The people are happy and full of pride in their country.

Same as I am. 

I have news for you.  They were looking across the Polish border, not the Russian one.

I have news for you too. I don't care where they are looking. 

[die_cast]

When you wake up to the fact he was Moscows incompetent agent in Kiev-tehn you will be on a path to learn some truths.

Thanks a lot for trying to "wake up" me, but could you make less efforts?
It's really hard to accept anything you are saying in serious way after you claimed you were awarded a medal by the Soviet Union.  TBH, I didn't know you are that old (not to mention being an inventor).

[jone]

Oh, I didn't know I look like Alexey Ulyukaev.  No, it doesn't bother me, it's not my job. 
It seems many things bother the hell out of you... may be you should visit a doctor? 
Same as I am. 
I have news for you too. I don't care where they are looking. 

I don't live in Siberia.  I live in Los Angeles.  But if I did live in Siberia, I would be bothered.  I would probably walk around all day long with a chip on my shoulder.

[Dewed]

folks.. if you can't tolerate at least considering opposing ideas what is the point of a discussion?

A is brainwashed and doesn't know reality

B keeps trying to cram their version of reality down my throat

A no you started it

B no you did

A yer stupid !

B you smell !

Stop it or I am parking the car and you can all get out and walk.  OK ?

[Dewed]

don't get me wrong, I am equally concerned  for ALL OF US, even those which I strongly disagree

Those that know my rather reclusive presence here might think I'm having a mental breakdown, which I may well be. I'm an introverted geek that gets along with computers and dogs better than most people. Even the mods here must be thinking who let this whack job in

Regardless, let's try to focus on the topic at hand and keep our conversations civil. This site is not named RussianWomenBickering.com

[jone]

You do quite well, thank you.