Protesters in Ukraine remind us of the priceless benefits of being EU members

[Ranetka]

You know what else is not worth the paper it's written on? 

promises made by Russia . . .

You will reap what you sow lady

please address the point I made. rhetoric and vague threats does not provide a valid contribution to the discussion.

[JayH]

It's really hard to accept anything you are saying in serious way after you claimed you were awarded a medal by the Soviet Union.  TBH, I didn't know you are that old (not to mention being an inventor).

You know exactly how "old" I am!! 
I did not say it was Stalin or Khrushchev  that made  award !! 
 

EDITED BY DEWED.. please do not not continue to push the boundaries between your opinion and instigation

[JayH]

Or  How  123% of Crimea Managed to Vote !!!
For entry into Russia voted 123% of Crimeans
Original taken from teh_nomad in For entrance into Russia voted 123% of Crimeans

Sometimes emotions prevail over common sense, but even emotions can be traced to the illegitimacy of the referendum.

0_f8816_2a2901db_XL

Euphoria, the Russian national anthem, sailors, 93% ... At least someone tried to analyze the results of the referendum in absolute terms? A feeling that just brought the figure of 93% and more all do not care. It is clear that no country in the world does not recognize the referendum, but yesterday's poll on this blog showed that half of voters (including bots) considers referendum honest. If you throw bots, then perhaps there are people who genuinely believe that the referendum passed by the rules. But how is possible to believe? Analyze. official announcement on 00-00 from the Crimea : Turnout in Crimea 20.00 (22.00 MSK) was 81.36%, the chairman of the Committee of the Supreme Council of Crimea to organize and conduct a referendum Mikhail Malyshev. "After 20 hours in the Crimea voted 1000000 250 thousand 426 people. This result excluding Sevastopol "- he said. "Given Sevastopol voted one million 724 thousand 563 people," - said the head of the commission. If you count: 1 724 563-1 250 426 = 474 137 people from Sevastopol voted in the referendum. Go to website statistics Sevastopol and read at the end of last year Sevastopol population was 385,462 person. It is tailored to the children who did not have the right to vote. 474,137 - 385,462 = 88,675 people accidentally appeared in Sevastopol during the referendum. 474 137/385 462 * 100 = 123% of Sevastopol voted for entrance into Russia ... And around Crimea following figures : According to the Main Statistical Office of the region, the resident population on January 1, 2014 amounted to 1 million 959 thousand people, including 1 million 219 thousand - urban, 740 thousand - agriculture. Calculate what percentage voted on throughout Crimea: 1.724 / 1.959 * 100 = 88% According to the chairman of the commission, turnout was 81.36%. That is, come all - and infants, schoolchildren, and I suspect that the dead.
http://urfin1657.livejournal.com/1003644.html

[fathertime]

Those that know my rather reclusive presence here might think I'm having a mental breakdown, which I may well be. I'm an introverted geek that gets along with computers and dogs better than most people. Even the mods here must be thinking who let this whack job in
 

Dewed! 


After all these years of silently and diligently maintaining these sites you are finally going wild.  I think it is great. Mix it up, live a little...haha


Fathertime! 

[fathertime]

From what I've gathered recently here and elsewhere.....


1. the Budapest memorandum....not binding....(ML)....Good point.


2.  The vote and photos show a generally happy people in Crimea...by all indications they *on the whole* got what they want. 


3. Weak sanctions...lots of lip service...obama doesn't care enough to educate the public (billyB)....I agree. 


4. Russia has not moved into the greater part of Ukraine in any significant way as of yet, although many here predict they are going to soon.  I would think not.


5. There is a lot of name-calling substituting for backing up points. 


Fathertime! 

[Faux Pas]

From what I've gathered recently here and elsewhere.....


1. the Budapest memorandum....not binding....(ML)....Good point.

Nonbinding? FT you're beginning to sound a bit lawyer-ed up. It was an accord and while there are many ways to "weasel" out of it, it is the "word" of The United States of America. That should mean something

2.  The vote and photos show a generally happy people in Crimea...by all indications they *on the whole* got what they want. 

Yeah a 125% voter turn out should please everyone eh? I suspect if you look you'll find some pictures of happy faces in Auschwitz in 1944

3. Weak sanctions...lots of lip service...obama doesn't care enough to educate the public (billyB)....I agree. 

Obama is petered out. At this juncture he couldn't rally death row prisoners with guaranteed pardons. He has no desire or ability to confront Putin's actions

4. Russia has not moved into the greater part of Ukraine in any significant way as of yet, although many here predict they are going to soon.  I would think not.

Don't kid yourself, it's coming

[fathertime]

Don't kid yourself, it's coming

When?  Now or in 25 years?  What do you think? Many here think this is the beginning of a long march toward Kiev or even worse.  I don't think so.  At most, perhaps a few more border cities in Ukraine, but I think even that doesn't seem likely. 

Nonbinding? FT you're beginning to sound a bit lawyer-ed up. It was an accord and while there are many ways to "weasel" out of it, it is the "word" of The United States of America. That should mean something
 

I'm paraphrasing what I read here...


I don't think the word of the United States means much at all actually...we have broken many promises through the years when it has been in our best interests...and everybody knows/understands this.    We are not much better than other nations in that regard...although we often come up with good 'weasel' out reasons/excuses.

Yeah a 125% voter turn out should please everyone eh? I suspect if you look you'll find some pictures of happy faces in Auschwitz in 1944

[/size]There is a lot of references to Nazi's...I have to reject that as hyperbole (on both sides BTW)...It appears to me, and even our mainstream media (like CNN) that the majority of people in Crimea are happy about what has occurred.  I'm just saying....[size=78%]

Obama is petered out. At this juncture he couldn't rally death row prisoners with guaranteed pardons. He has no desire or ability to confront Putin's actions
 

Well Obozo has obviously sensed that the American people are not behind involvement....as BillyB pointed out he has not made an effort to 'educate' us...If he really cared he would have been out there speaking, making a case...but my feeling is he knows it is a losing battle and he is going to prance Kerry out there and make him look foolish instead.  Putin made a strong move and there has not been any good short-term counter moves to it. 






Of course this is all just opinion and I don't claim to know more than the next guy...I'm just a fella following the events through my own little biases...just like everybody else!   


Fathertime! 

[BillyB]

4. Russia has not moved into the greater part of Ukraine in any significant way as of yet, although many here predict they are going to soon.  I would think not.

I would really like to believe you're right and Russia is going to stop. No offense to Crimeans but Crimea has little value compared to other places in the world or even other parts Ukraine for that matter. So,..... is it true Putin is only doing this because ethnic Russians there need protection? He risked so much, taking a chance to be expelled from the world community, to gain little?


Fathertime, Obama needs to stop thinking everything will be alright just as most our citizens believe and take the current events deadly serious, including the missing plane. Our citizens have a right to live worry free but it's Obama's job to provide that environment. In another thread there's a discussion on whether or not if the crisis in Ukraine was even our biggest problem. I've cut and paste my answer below. These are things citizens of the world should not have to worry about but as current events are folding, and our current Western world leaders seem incapable of stopping, we will be worrying more.


Quote: "I agree the problem with Iran is bigger than Ukraine. The problems there will definitely hurt our economy than the problems in Eastern Europe. But I also think the problem in Ukraine increases our problems with Iran with the common denominator being Russia.


There are basically 3 things Obama could do during the crisis in Crimea.


1) Take a strong stance against Russia to the point Russia backs off Crimea. Afterwards Russia may be more motivated to help us with Iran due to the strength we displayed or be pissed off and not help at all.


2) Take the current soft stance which most people believe encourages Russia to not cooperate in anything we ask of them.


3) Take no stance and let Russia do what it wants. Russia in turn my help us control Iran but Russia just made a multi billion dollar economic deal with Iran so I think they never had any serious intentions to apply sanctions on Iran.


Iran is close to a bomb now. We know Israel is going to bomb them if the international community fails to control them. International relations with Iran's most influential partner, Russia, is falling apart. I predict a bombing in the future.


Putin isn't dumb and understands for every action, he alters the situation. He may have a master plan and try to alter the situation to his benefit. He may turn the dogs of war loose, offer full support and encourage Iran to start a Middle East war after getting bombed by Israel. A Middle Eastern war will definitely turn our attention away from Russia vs. Eastern Europe. There are Russian citizens living in the Baltics and other ex Soviet states that need to be protected from the fanatics of the West. Putin may come to their rescue while we're busy with Iran. With Russia and Iran making their moves, North Korea and other nations may act understanding there's strength in numbers and it's currently their best shot at dethroning America and increasing their real estate since America would have a hard time fighting on multiple fronts. The leaders of those nations are salivating at opportunities that just materialized due to Obama's show of weakness.


If world war happens, Obama will react slow as FDR reacted slow to the events of WWII. Obama may apply sanctions on a larger scale, let countries beat each other up, and let tens of millions die before letting America get into the war and through America's sheer strength and fresh troops, we will win a world war with a weak leader and your great grandchildren will someday read that Obama is one of the heroes of WWIII. Of course Obama may need a third term to right the wrongs in this world. Our citizens may give it to him.


Based on the amount of news coverage of late, a missing plane is more important to Americans that what Russia is doing. We may find the plane someday......delivering an Iranian nuke."


I'll add one more thing. A Boeing 777 airplane can travel across and ocean and with extra fuel tanks, it can travel easily half way across the world. Question; Is Americas West Coast or East Coast closest to Iran? I'm sure some Iranian nut job has already figured out it's best to deliver an Iranian nuke in an American made plane since their missiles aren't capable yet.

[Faux Pas]

When?  Now or in 25 years?  What do you think? Many here think this is the beginning of a long march toward Kiev or even worse.  I don't think so.  At most, perhaps a few more border cities in Ukraine, but I think even that doesn't seem likely. 



I'm paraphrasing what I read here...

That question is better directed at Putin. I have no crystal ball and I'm not clairvoyant. Putin already had Crimea for all intent and purpose. He didn't need to stage an invasion, he had it by agreement for all the purposes that Russia needs Crimea. It wasn't until his stooge, underling and thief got tossed out on his ass that he saw Ukraine slipping from his clutches. It's obvious to me, Ukraine is his target. When he goes for the rest of it likely will depend on world response to this effort. Yes, I can have an opinion like anyone else.

I don't think the word of the United States means much at all actually...we have broken many promises through the years when it has been in our best interests...and everybody knows/understands this.    We are not much better than other nations in that regard...although we often come up with good 'weasel' out reasons/excuses.

I'm not as free and easy with the facts/truth apparently as is a lot of folks around here. Our word "should" mean something and our politicians should not get free gratis for attempting to skirt it because they do not find it politically favorable to them personally. Our politicians need to be held accountable

[/size]There is a lot of references to Nazi's...I have to reject that as hyperbole (on both sides BTW)...It appears to me, and even our mainstream media (like CNN) that the majority of people in Crimea are happy about what has occurred.  I'm just saying....[size=78%]Well Obozo has obviously sensed that the American people are not behind involvement....as BillyB pointed out he has not made an effort to 'educate' us...If he really cared he would have been out there speaking, making a case...but my feeling is he knows it is a losing battle and he is going to prance Kerry out there and make him look foolish instead.  Putin made a strong move and there has not been any good short-term counter moves to it. 

Every one of Putin's moves are ripped right from the pages of Mein Kempf. It's more than ironic that it is Nazis and fascism that he is accusing the Ukrainian government of. The Ukrainians have a deeper scar of Hitler and fascism than anyone other country on earth.

Obama doesn't care. He doesn't care about most world events. You'd be hard pressed to find anything he does care about that doesn't involve White House dinner parties and appearances on the View. He's a celeb, not a President

Of course this is all just opinion and I don't claim to know more than the next guy...I'm just a fella following the events through my own little biases...just like everybody else!   

And you are welcome to it. As I am mine. From many of your remarks on these issues you seem to opine a lot based on very little factual information. I'm just attempting to help you out where I can 

[Gator]

Fathertime,

A key point is that the world community has done nothing to dissuade Putin from further expansions into bordering countries. 

We did nothing regarding Georgia.  In fact, Obama hit the Russia reset button.  In Crimea, there is little the world can do and so far has done even less than the little.

Besides, we need Putin to help us with Iran and Syria.  Thus, the smartest predictors in the world (the stock markets) say this blow over. 

Meanwhile, Putin has made Obama and thereby America to look weak.  Our only recourse is to win this economically, which we are doing even with a President who has been a hindrance to growth.  Perhaps Obama will now throttle back on his  campaign against conventional energy sources so that we can help Europe secure alternative energy sources.  Think about how that would affect the Russian economy.

[Muzh]

I wish people stop quoting Budapest memorandum which has never been ratified by either of the parties and therefore not worth paper it's written on....

I don't think you ratify a memorandum. 

[Muzh]

a Crimean Tatar and a Russian occupier walk into a bar, well actually it was just the Tatar and he walked into it with his head - repeatedly....

http://maidantranslations.com/2014/03/18/fallen-crimean-tatar-reshat-ametov-simferopol/



In other words, how big of a weapons cache could a Tatar stash?
If a Tatar could stash a weapons cache?
Stay tuned tomorrow for the surprising answer

Don't you know it was the Ukrainian Nationalists who killed him? Because all Ukrainian Nationalists hate jews. It was on RT so it must be true.

 

Meanwhile in Simpheropol, first Ukrainian defenders shot by Russians, at least one dead, more injured

According to a Crieman Self-defense, this was nothing but a mistake.
 
The Telegraph

[jone]

I was just wondering last night if all of the Russians on this board would scream foul if Kaliningrad (Konigsberg) were forcibly repatriated with Germany.  It is, after all, East Prussia.  The 500,000 or so people who live there could be induced to vote for repatriation at the point of German guns?  I'm sure there would be thousands of people who could be brought to the streets to celebrate under the German flag?

They could bus people across the border.  People could surround the nuclear missiles that are now hidden in various parts of the Oblast and claim them as German missiles.  Believe me, these people have much more in common with Germany or the Baltic States than they do Russia.

The only difference between Konigsberg (oops Kaliningrad) and Crimea is that Kaliningrad will not have to be supplied by its new masters by ship.

[Ranetka]

,

[Muzh]

And to everyone moaning about Russia being dishonest - how about no expansion of NATO to the east? You should not break YOUR promises first. Practice what you preach and stop being such hypocrites.

No arguments from me on this. The US promised Russia no NATO expassion and they should have kept their word.
 
EXCEPT, that I haven't seen a document stating such. Do you have a copy where it says that the US promised Russia there would be no eastern expansion of NATO?
 
You know, like a Moscow Memorandum? Or Bonn Memorandum. Or Brussels Memorandum that clearly states NATO is not going to move eastward?
 
I'd like to see it.

[jone]

I don't think in terms of promises kept, I think in terms of lying to the world.  Anyone can weasel out of a past promise.  But I wonder how stupid VVP thinks the world is when he tells these audacious lies?  Oh, I guess he isn't talking to the world.  He's talking to his own people!

[Ranetka]

No arguments from me on this. The US promised Russia no NATO expassion and they should have kept their word.
 
EXCEPT, that I haven't seen a document stating such. Do you have a copy where it says that the US promised Russia there would be no eastern expansion of NATO?
 
You know, like a Moscow Memorandum? Or Bonn Memorandum. Or Brussels Memorandum that clearly states NATO is not going to move eastward?
 
I'd like to see it.

I have to thank you....There is not one.

[pokerintherear]

Onward we march.........................Moscow signals concern for Russians in Estonia 

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/03/19/us-russia-estonia-idUSBREA2I1J620140319

[Ranetka]

[

[Muzh]

Interesting read.
 
Anyone remember Josif Broz Tito?
 
http://feldgrau.info/index.php/2010-09-02-14-48-28/8548-sovetskie-antiyugoslavskie-karikatury-1949-1951-godov
 
Any similarities with Ukraine are just a figment of your imagination.

[pokerintherear]

Twenty years too late.

Could you not say the same about Crimea 2 months ago?

[Ranetka]

[

[jone]

No, they were OK two months ago.
I am not sure what the situation with Russians in Estonia is now to be honest but in the 90s early 00s the situations with Russians there was bad, unfortunately Eltsin did not care and Putin I guess did not have the strength to react at the time.

Maybe the Estonians should invite their Russian minority to leave the country, like Russia did in Konigsberg, oops, I meant Kaliningrad.  Makes me wonder what is going to happen to the Tatars and Ukrainians in Crimea.

For those of you who don't know - this is the underlying philosophy of both Ukrainian Heritage and Russian Heritage Ukrainians right now:  "If they love Russia so much, they should just move there, but leave us alone."

This is NOT a bad idea.  Russia is having problems maintaining its population growth because not enough people are having more than two children.

[Ranetka]

[

[Muzh]

I believe Ukrainian population declined some 20% or so during independent years so they should not be too fussy either.
You say things that actually happened...My Uni friends parents had to move first to a barak (do you know what barak is?) in Narva, then to a middle of nowhere village in Russia. They were refused citizenship. Have you seen the passport which says "Alien of Estonia"? Well I have...How about not being able to do your job anymore in the age of 51 because you happen to be a Russian? (policeman) despite living in 95% ethnic Russian populated place (Narva). How about closing the Russian school when your kid had one year before graduating? Cool, innit.

Ranetka, I'm just talking of human nature here.
 
The Baltics states were "conquered" after WWII. The people in those countries never assimilated to the Russians and saw them as oppressors. The moment that they "got" their country back they made sure they were not going  to be "counquered" again. Now, this is debatable since there are people who will argue they just exchanged masters.
 
Something DID happened during all those years under Soviet rule for them to feel this way towards Russians.
 
The sad reality is that during Soviet times, the Russians made no qualms about WHY they had the Warsaw Pact countries. It was a buffer zone. Now, imagine yourself part of a buffer zone. Basically, you are the sacrificial lamb to be slaughtered to protect the people in Russia. No matter how you dice it, this is how it was presented to the world. Maybe your parents living there didn't see it that way since they were willing to sacrifice their lives for their motherland. However, Russia was NOT the motherland of those people originally from the Baltics, or from Poland, or Hungary, etc. I'm not asking you to understand the resentment these people have, just take it as a fact.
 
And this is the most recent example. Go back a hundred years and then another hundred.
 
No matter how you look at it most of the endemic people from the Baltics want the Russians out of their countries. Right or wrong, it is irrelevant. It is human nature.