Protesters in Ukraine remind us of the priceless benefits of being EU members

[LiveFromUkraine]

Myself, I would like to see a bit more solidarity in Europe among European citizens (sans politicians) and everyone put on a coat and turn down the heat, make a whole hearted effort to use public transportation.

A way for the ordinary citizen to demonstrate intolerance of the current situation.

I had to laugh when watching an interview of an "old soviet officer" (pro Russian) the comment about all Jew/Maisons to get out.......was he talking about the fascists?   Too funny!

Mostly I hear hopes of a better life/more money from the interviews of pro Russia people, I have not heard one peep about "not being discriminated against in a Russian Crimea" not a word of improved safety either....it's all about the money.

Anyone who believes Putin only lies to the west, is definitely drinking the Kool Aid!!

Some people are trying hard to stil make this a Russia against Ukraine/and or West issue, but I still believe it is just a normal human issue of people tired of corruption and wanting something better. Corruption being the key word.

There is a lot of koolaid drinking going on in this thread.  I don't think most people realize how the world needs a country like Russia.  Apposing countries tend to help keep things in check.  When one side is too powerful they tend to abuse that position in most cases. 

[tfcrew]

Turkey Warns Russia it Will Blockade Bosphorus if Violence Occurs

Pick any source....
http://www.google.com/#q=Turkey+Warns+Russia+it+Will+Blockade+Bosphorus+if+Violence+Occurs

[fathertime]

FT,

I have one objection to your line of thought, although we are very close.  The whole idea for the end of the Cold War was that we could get more out of cooperation than we could out of opposing each other.  Every country has their interests.  They should be expected to protect their interests.

But the greater good of the world is served when people rise above the regional interests and join the global economy.  Most of Europe had thought that Russia had done so.  I thought that Russia had done so.  I have traveled through Russia and seen that the middle class is indeed arriving.

Now, in one month, in what I firmly believe was an unplanned operation, Putin has taken Russia out of the global economy and set the world back two decades.

And the shitte thing about the whole situation is that he had it within his grasp to have his cake and eat it too.  He controls Ukraine through the pipeline, through the shared border and through the economic advantage that he has.  In a period of three or four years, it would have been as before, only better.

But he got his crank stepped on and decided to be a gunslinger.  Now like a kid telling a lie in class, he has no choice but to bluff his way out.  And the world is watching.  And no one believes him.  So the only thing he can do is be naughtier.  Mark my words.  He will invade Eastern Ukraine.  He has no choice.

For those who are worried about Crimea?  Why worry.  It is the boobie prize.  No one is going to be happy owning it now.  It will be a place of strife and will be sealed off from the rest of Ukraine.  It is the South Ossetia of the Black Sea.  Lucky they have some good harbors there, because that is the only way that Russia is going to be able to resupply it.

And when Russia invades Ukraine, those Ukrainian tanks are going to respond.  And the world will watch with horror for the first two weeks, this plucky little country responding to aggression.  And then they will back her with arms and soldiers.  And Russia will now have stepped on their own crank and Putin will have less than two years left in power before the people, again, rise up in revolt. 

That is why the United States should keep their nose out of the affair.  Putin is doing plenty well sealing his own fate without us.

Yo bud, interesting reasoning there....i think one of the places we don't  agree is you think Putin is going to go quite a bit further...I think he is done 'for now'....  if something wild happens in the next few days I'll fetch my huevos from on top of the refrigerator strap them on and respond...but it will be a few days...gotta run


Fathertime!   

[Muzh]

Non-military experienced people should avoid commenting on a military area, as specific and detailed, and mostly unknown to laymen, as the air defense of the US.

I'd like to offer you a sample of what is going on in the mind of at least ONE military intel for the US Air Force. He is a good friend of mine. Obviously, I will not divulge his name.
 
=====================================================================
Subject: Uhmmm.....we still want the Crimea....but would you be so kind as to  let our military guys leave without hurting us, please?
 
Sounds a little wimpy to me (see below) - Ukraine leaving with their tail between their legs.   http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/20/world/europe/crimea.html?_r=0   ======================================================================= 
 
Subject: They sure aren't Texans....Remember the Alamo!!!   
 
You should tell your wife to remember the Alamo and tell her Americans would fight it out even if outnumbered a 1000 to 1 and death was imminent.

========================================================================   
 
Subject: The difference between Americans and Ukrainians: Alamo versus Crimea...   
 
Ukrainians just pack up and leave when the odds are against them (as in Crimea)  but Americans at the Alamo, like Col Travis, took death before dishonor.  This is why the American soldier is number one in the world.  Good quote below....   Facing almost certain death, Travis vowed never to surrender or retreat and to "die like a soldier who never forgets what is due to his own honor & that of his country - Victory or Death."

======================================================================== 
 
Subject: Battle of Thermopylae versus Crimea Monty Python "Run away!"   
 
The Battle of Thermopylae, the Spartans perished against overwhelming odds but saved their country.  If the Ukrainians had stayed and fought, ultimately they might have kept the Crimea.  Now it is gone forever. You need that blood sacrifice to show intent.   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Thermopylae   ======================================================================== 
 
GQ, this one's for you. He he     
 
Subject: Lollipop Guild May be Responsible for Malaysian Plan Hijacking to Secret Location in Tibet
 
I now I shouldn't share classified information but I want to let you know who your son is going to have to do battle with now.  The Lollipop Guild-Putin alliance will be one tough adversary.

 My sources in Homeland Security are alleging that the Lollipop Guild (see attached photo) was behind the Malaysian Flight hijacking. They took the plane to a secret location in Tibet and are plotting further hijackings as part of their plan for world domination.  They want to start their own airlines after they get enough planes "Lollipop Airlines."  They are secretly in partnership with the russians and encouraged the recent takeover of Crimea.  This is the new axis of evil. 
      ==========================================================================
 
And here's the best one   
 
Subject: The Dominant Country is Always the Most Moral..   
 
According to the Genealogy of Morals (Neitzsche), strength, dominance and power projection come first - morality comes second and is determined by the victor.  Hence, any Empire, whether it be the Roman Empire, the British Empire or the American empire always represents the height of morality by sheer strength of will.   On an animal level, you don't look at a male lion that has protected its mating rights and say, "Bad immoral lion - you cut up the competition."  There really isn't morality in the natural world.  it is an invention of people to either justify what was done or as a power projection itself (biblical code was a way for the weak to obtain some power).  Hence, Russia won and is therefore right and moral.     The only choice is to fight and either die in your efforts or win - that is the only morality.  Or you kow-tow to the dominant actor - if you don't want to fight.  Obviously Ukrainians didn't care enough about the Crimea to fight for it - there it belongs to Russia on a moral basis.  Everything else is handwaving - the west projects a certain morality out of weakness.
 
http://www.anus.com/zine/db/friedrich_nietzsche/   
 
 
No one looks back at the Mongol Empire and says "bad boys."  They respect it and praise.  Everyone remembers Rome's accomplishments - not its crimes.  History gives a good perspective.  It praises power.   

[lordtiberius]

I think that FT's position is immoral and will lead to a larger war.  But despite the bispartisan support in Congress, most Americans agree with him.

http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/opinion/57706520-82/putin-paul-foreign-percent.html.csp

As I said in my video, Americans care more about Jobs, Jobs, and Jobs.  But they also care about justice and freedom.  When someone threatens their sense of justice and freedom, we will see those numbers change.  So our objective must be to change their minds. 

To the Obama voters on this forum, you choose this. Your decision to support this man has lead to this world destabilization and the threat of smaller wars breaking out all over the world.  Why is it that your choice for President will use force in Libya, Egypt and Syria but not in Ukraine?

[lordtiberius]

I think Russia's military could beat everyone in the world except America's and maybe China's who have been spending a lot on offense defense lately.


America's navy can beat the next 10+ nation's navies combined. One aircraft carrier alone has more air power than most nations. An enemy can blow a hole the size of the one in the USS Cole and our ships still won't sink. One sub can deliver 240 nukes, enough nukes for every major city in the world. But we should stick to comparing conventional weapons because nukes makes everybody equal. Our ships carry highly accurate cruise missiles that can travel hundreds of miles away and that can circle your house until it finds your front door to enter if programmed to do so.


When our planes have gone up against Russian built planes in various wars the last few decades, American planes have dominated. Israel have no complaints about our equipment vs Russian equipment owned by Arab nations. Air superiority is easy for America to achieve, even more so now than in the past since we increase the gap of technology. It's hard to shoot down planes you can't see on radar and that can destroy you before they get within eyesight.


Russia has one of the biggest armies in the world with a huge amount of armored vehicles. Boots on the ground, not planes or ships, is what it takes to gain real estate in war. During the Gulf war, Russian tanks had a difficult time penetrating our armor. One Iraqi colonel said in 30 days of air bombing, he lost 10% of his tanks but in one day of encountering the M-1 Abrams tank, he lost the rest. America has a huge supply of night vision equipment. A ratio of night vision goggles to soldiers higher than other countries. When one army can see and the other can't, it has a huge advantage if it chooses to stage battles at night.


America has great logistics which is important in a lengthy war. I'm not sure about Russia's logistics but there's little doubt on my mind they could quickly take out nearby neighbors.


Everything you read about the capabilities of America's weapons are most likely wrong. It's not desirable to let other nations know the true capabilities of our equipment. I had a friend who was on an aircraft carrier and when Reagan ordered ships to Libya, his aircraft carrier was going so fast it left it's battle group behind. It felt like an earthquake the whole time sailing to the Mediterranean. The engines/reactor weren't even at full power, if it were, it'll plow through the water so fast and hard, the ship would fall apart. Who would have thought an aircraft carrier could be the navy's fastest ship?


The will to fight and belief in the mission is important. It affects moral, which in turn affects performance. Everybody in America's military are volunteers so most of them are where they're at willingly. Most men in Russia's military are forced to serve so they may be less motivated to do their job. Putin would have a harder time motivating his soldiers to achieve his goals than Obama would with American soldiers. Propaganda is important and Russia is better than America at that. Saddam Hussein was not good at propaganda and some entire brigades and divisions of his military were surrendering before getting in a fight. Much of his soldiers didn't believe in the mission. They had no problem going up against Kuwait but when it came time to go up against a superior opponent, many surrendered. They valued their lives more than the mission.


America trains it's servicemen often. We have the funds to do so. Like it or not, America fights often. More training, more experience, means better soldiers.


If Putin knows he has the best military in the world, he would be using it on a larger scale right now, especially since he has home field advantage. He'd like to achieve all his goals now but he's still slow and cautious about the way he's doing things. That should tell you something pertaining to what he thinks of his military vs ours.

Really good post.  But we know that Obama is not going to get involved.  Would you agree with me that Russia might fire and even sink one of our boats and we, the satisfaction of the anti-America crowd, would still not get involved.  That is very dangerous.

How would Russia do against Poland?  Britain, France or Germany?  Estonia?  Lithunia?  Ukraine?  Isn't Putin's larger strategic goal to split up NATO?

[lordtiberius]

It must suck to only have one thing you are proud of in life.  It would at least make for some more interesting comebacks instead of saying the same thing over and over and over again.

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm3381853/

google me

[Muzh]

Really good post.  But we know that Obama is not going to get involved.  Would you agree with me that Russia might fire and even sink one of our boats and we, the satisfaction of the anti-America crowd, would still not get involved.  That is very dangerous.

How would Russia do against Poland?  Britain, France or Germany?  Estonia?  Lithunia?  Ukraine?  Isn't Putin's larger strategic goal to split up NATO?

So which pill are you taking today? The red one or the blue one?
 
Just yesterday you were "advocating" for no war at all. Now you are worse than a neocon hawk. What gives?

[LiveFromUkraine]

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm3381853/

google me

- IMDb Mini Biography By: James A. Bretney[/font]


Hilarious, you posted your own biography that you wrote yourself.   I think dealing with your inane rants on here is enough without having to deal with googling you. 


Your attempt to shut up someone based on services rendered shows your inability to address his points and thus makes you look silly as usual.

[BillyB]

Ukrainians just pack up and leave when the odds are against them (as in Crimea)

I think it was Obama telling Ukraine to pack up and leave so they don't start a war. The Ukrainian Prime minister was begging for military help to keep his country in one piece. If Ukraine has any hope in getting help from the west...later on, they need to take our advice now.


America retreated from the Pacific after Japan bombed us. General MacArthur took his troops and left the Philippines to fend for themselves. Japan took them over. Retreating to regroup isn't always a sign of weakness or cowardness. When the bullets start flying, we'll truly see what Ukrainian soldiers are made of. Only a day ago were Ukrainian soldiers were allowed to shoot to defend themselves.


Every young man in Ukraine has to grow up quick and think about who he identifies himself with. If he feels he's a Ukrainian patriot, he will more likely give his life for his country if it comes to that point.


Obama just gave a live speech. He is applying more sanctions that will hurt(his words). Russia will retaliate tit for tat probably loosening it's leash on Iran. Israel knows it's targets and have plan ready. Expect a bombing in the future. Expect to pay lots more at the gas pump.

How would Russia do against Poland?  Britain, France or Germany?  Estonia?  Lithunia?  Ukraine?  Isn't Putin's larger strategic goal to split up NATO?

Without America, Russia could crush NATO militarily. We've seen NATO in action in Libya and in the former Yugoslavia. NATO nations don't cooperate with each other very well and have a hard time controlling problems in little nations.


Of course Putin would like to see NATO go away. He's not happy seeing Russia's neighbors joining or trying to join NATO. Since he doesn't have the best military in the world, he has to use different means to break NATO and limit their growth. One way is to reduce the amount of potential member nations and another way is using Iran as a tool at the bargaining table. He's hoping the west will trade Ukraine and a few other nations for Russia's cooperation in controlling Iran.

[SANDRO43]

General MacArthur took his troops and left the Philippines to fend for themselves. Japan took them over.

Not quite so:

the invasion of the Philippines by the Japanese. MacArthur's forces were soon compelled to withdraw to Bataan, where they held out until May 1942. In March 1942, MacArthur, his family and his staff left nearby Corregidor Island in PT boats and escaped to Australia

MacArthur left but not most of his troops, who eventually surrendered to the Japs 2 months later.

[Gator]

Muzh,

Interesting discussion point that if Ukraine were truly committed to keeping Crimea, they would have attacked the "unidentified" invaders.   


This did not stop a similar action by Russia in 2008 in Georgia, with Russian troops repelling the Georgian attack and even occupying parts of Georgia outside of the disputed secessionist area. 

Ukraine knew that very well, and being badly outnumbered did not make a stand.  In contrast, the Alamo was a delaying action to give Sam Houston enough time to form an army that could challenge Santa Anna.  Sam Houston's army accomplished exactly that six weeks later, capturing Santa Anna, in a brilliant battle.

Even if Ukraine called up its full army, it still would be hopeless to attack the Russians because Ukraine has no airpower.   

 

[BillyB]

MacArthur left but not most of his troops, who eventually surrendered to the Japs 2 months later.

I went to go refresh my history and you're right. MacArthur even wanted to share the same fate as his troops but with other generals and the president convincing him he's more militarily valuable outside of a prison cell, only then did he leave. But still, I don't consider his retreat an act of weakness or cowardice as long as it's strategic.

[GQBlues]

I think Russia's military could beat everyone in the world except America's and maybe China's who have been spending a lot on offense defense lately....

You make a lot good points on this post, BillyB. Just remember, despite the many *advantages* our military *enjoys*, it still took us nearly 10 years to hold some semblance of military control in Iraq against an enemy who were far more than over-matched in their arsenal. AND, we still could not had accomplished any of it without the assistance and cooperation of the Saudis to tame the Sunnis and only have to deal with the Sh'ites.

Same in Afghanistan. Our celebrated military has been there over 10 years. How do you think we're doing over there against an enemy who doesn't even have one combat plane, much less control the airspace? We are still having a difficult time to figure out something as trivial and simple as IEDs.

If war did broke out in the region against Russia, how prepared do you think we will be when the potential enemy resembles that of the indigenous, much like in Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan?

[GQBlues]

...Subject: Lollipop Guild May be Responsible for Malaysian Plan Hijacking to Secret Location in Tibet...

WOW! Muzh, those are the guys last seen boarding MAS! I'll be damned!

They were however sporting tinfoil hats with ionized gas coating (plasma) when seen passing through airport security in Kuala Lumpur. Many thought it strange and didn't understand what it was for. The rest of course is, hysteria history.

LOL.

[GQBlues]

...google me

LOL. I did before, man. But I keep coming up with this...





*Google me* LMAO! What a joke!

[LiveFromUkraine]

If war did broke out in the region against Russia, how prepared do you think we will be when the potential enemy resembles that of the indigenous, much like in Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan?

Hitler against the Red army.

[Muzh]

I think it was Obama telling Ukraine to pack up and leave so they don't start a war. The Ukrainian Prime minister was begging for military help to keep his country in one piece. If Ukraine has any hope in getting help from the west...later on, they need to take our advice now.


America retreated from the Pacific after Japan bombed us. General MacArthur took his troops and left the Philippines to fend for themselves. Japan took them over. Retreating to regroup isn't always a sign of weakness or cowardness. When the bullets start flying, we'll truly see what Ukrainian soldiers are made of. Only a day ago were Ukrainian soldiers were allowed to shoot to defend themselves.


Every young man in Ukraine has to grow up quick and think about who he identifies himself with. If he feels he's a Ukrainian patriot, he will more likely give his life for his country if it comes to that point.

What kind of revisionist BS is that?
 
The US forces fought until they could no longer. Many US troops died on the way to POW camps and many more were tortured there.
 
What's this bullshevik MacArthur took his army and fled?

[Muzh]

Muzh,

Interesting discussion point that if Ukraine were truly committed to keeping Crimea, they would have attacked the "unidentified" invaders.   


This did not stop a similar action by Russia in 2008 in Georgia, with Russian troops repelling the Georgian attack and even occupying parts of Georgia outside of the disputed secessionist area. 

Ukraine knew that very well, and being badly outnumbered did not make a stand.  In contrast, the Alamo was a delaying action to give Sam Houston enough time to form an army that could challenge Santa Anna.  Sam Houston's army accomplished exactly that six weeks later, capturing Santa Anna, in a brilliant battle.

Even if Ukraine called up its full army, it still would be hopeless to attack the Russians because Ukraine has no airpower.

I'll make sure I relay your comments to the military intel. LOL
 
I should also point out that with this guy, you'll never know when he is serious, joking, or making a veiled statement.

[Muzh]

WOW! Muzh, those are the guys last seen boarding MAS! I'll be damned!

They were however sporting tinfoil hats with ionized gas coating (plasma) when seen passing through airport security in Kuala Lumpur. Many thought it strange and didn't understand what it was for. The rest of course is, hysteria history.

LOL.

LMAO
 
I knew you'd get a kick out of that. It surely had me in stitches.

[GQBlues]

There were 3 words Gen. McArthur said that rung and lasted through the Philippines psyche and became of the country's symbol of salvation.

"I Shall Return!"

(Sandro - is this proper English? *Shall* instead of 'will'?)

[BillyB]

Just remember, despite the many *advantages* our military *enjoys*, it still took us nearly 10 years to hold some semblance of military control in Iraq against an enemy who were far more than over-matched in their arsenal. AND, we still could not had accomplished any of it without the assistance and cooperation of the Saudis to tame the Sunnis and only have to deal with the Sh'ites.

I've considered those points when I wrote my post. It's important to not mix up a military operation with a nation building operation. America's military did extrememly well in Iraq and Afghanistan and would have done so in Vietnam if the politicians didn't hold the military back.


Soldiers, who's expertise is to kill, aren't very good at nation building or even keeping the peace. Soldiers aren't diplomats or policemen but they would be good at keeping a nation safe from internal and external threats during it's rebuilding process which depends more on it's citizens than any outside help. America could help Iraq and Afghanistan with security(our military), money, resources such as food and farm equipment, education and training to become economically successful but if it's citizens aren't motivated to succeed with the tools and education handed to them, nation rebuilding will fail. Germany and Japan, with our help, rebuilt their nations just fine after WWII but their citizens are of a different mindset of those in Iraq and Afghanistan.


Even though I believe America's military could kick Russia's butt, I believe America would fail if it chose to occupy and rebuild Russia.

[GQBlues]

I've considered those points when I wrote my post. It's important to not mix up a military operation with a nation building operation. America's military did extrememly well in Iraq and Afghanistan and would have done so in Vietnam if the politicians didn't hold the military back.


Soldiers, who's expertise is to kill, aren't very good at nation building or even keeping the peace. Soldiers aren't diplomats or policemen but they would be good at keeping a nation safe from internal and external threats during it's rebuilding process which depends more on it's citizens than any outside help. America could help Iraq and Afghanistan with security(our military), money, resources such as food and farm equipment, education and training to become economically successful but if it's citizens aren't motivated to succeed with the tools and education handed to them, nation rebuilding will fail. Germany and Japan, with our help, rebuilt their nations just fine after WWII but their citizens are of a different mindset of those in Iraq and Afghanistan.


Even though I believe America's military could kick Russia's butt, I believe America would fail if it chose to occupy and rebuild Russia.

Point taken.

But if we did engage in Ukraine, whether in defense of Ukraine or defeat the Russians, we will still find ourselves IN Ukraine doing nation building whether we like it or not.

[Muzh]

Point taken.

But if we did engage in Ukraine, whether in defense of Ukraine or defeat the Russians, we will still find ourselves IN Ukraine doing nation building whether we like it or not.

Why do you think we will be doing that? I truly believe that given enough time (sooner rather than later) the Russians themselves will make a correction that's been past due.

[BillyB]

Point taken.

But if we did engage in Ukraine, whether in defense of Ukraine or defeat the Russians, we will still find ourselves IN Ukraine doing nation building whether we like it or not.

Even without war happening, Obama is going to help rebuild their nation. It's happening right now. To what extent we'll help is anybody's guess. I believe most Ukrainians want a change from what they've had in the past and will embrace outside assistance to rebuild their nation. Ukrainians aren't going to do better than the citizens of Germany or Japan but they'll do better than the citizens of Iraq and Afghanistan.