Protesters in Ukraine remind us of the priceless benefits of being EU members

[Stirlitz]

Without America, Russia could crush NATO militarily.

What?

[Gator]

What?

Ditto. 

[Muzh]

I'm going to side with Billy here.

[alex330]

I'm going to side with Billy here.

Yes, without the United States NATO is dead in the water. We provide most of the weapons, funding, and fuel. We had to step in and help with all refueling in Libya as one example.

[Muzh]

Yes, without the United States NATO is dead in the water. We provide most of the weapons, funding, and fuel. We had to step in and help with all refueling in Libya as one example.

Not to mention that there is no desire from the Europeans to exercise military muscle in Europe. Only the former Warsaw Pact nations that are part of NATO now and they are sorely undermanned and under equipped.

[Gator]

I just added the armor of the top three  members of NATO (excl. USA).  The total is 1,238 tanks vs. Russia's 15,000 tanks.  It sounds as if NATO is outnumbered. 


Keep in mind the decisive tank battle fought in 1991, during the Gulf War, between American-British armored forces and those of the Iraqi Republican Guard.   Iraq had Russian tanks.   Iraq lost 160 tanks, and the Brits-Americans none.  So, NATO should prevail. 

Wait....a caveat......many of the Iraqi tank crews did not start up their engines when the battle started.   If the Russians decide to start their engines, I will have to agree with Billy.

[Muzh]

I just added the armor of the top three  members of NATO (excl. USA).  The total is 1,238 tanks vs. Russia's 15,000 tanks.  It sounds as if NATO is outnumbered. 


Keep in mind the decisive tank battle fought in 1991, during the Gulf War, between American-British armored forces and those of the Iraqi Republican Guard.   Iraq had Russian tanks.   Iraq lost 160 tanks, and the Brits-Americans none.  So, NATO should prevail. 

Wait....a caveat......many of the Iraqi tank crews did not start up their engines when the battle started.   If the Russians decide to start their engines, I will have to agree with Billy.

Actually, here is an article on how NOT to do maps of military strength.

[Hammer2722]

Most of Iraqi tanks were older models that required them to stand still in order to fire accurately while Allied Coalition tanks could fire on the move with very high accuracy....

[BillyB]

Yes, without the United States NATO is dead in the water. We provide most of the weapons, funding, and fuel. We had to step in and help with all refueling in Libya as one example.

Our Secretary of Defense Robert Gates had harsh words below for our NATO allies. I suspect he held back from what he really wanted to say since it was a public announcement.


http://articles.latimes.com/2011/jun/10/world/la-fg-gates-nato-20110611


Russia also has a couple of advantages more over NATO minus America besides military. They are one entity. When you get a group of partners, some will not pull their load which creates discontent among each other. Also the heartbeat of each nation is important when it comes getting into a fight. Russia's citizens are more likely to support Putin in a fight than the citizens of the West supporting our leaders. If you think Obama was weak in his reaction to Russia, Obama had to pressure Europe to get tougher on Putin. There was a poll done to show how many Americans would agree to war if a NATO ally was attacked. Most are undecided or wouldn't want to go to war even if it's our obligations. Putin not only sees Obama's weakness, he sees weakness among American and European citizens. A significant amount of people would allow Russia to take over most those countries below rather than fight Russian troops.


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/04/01/americans-nato-poll_n_5069838.html?ncid=txtlnkusaolp00000592

[BC]

Lets not forget it is his back yard, not that of the west.  We likely know very little of the intricacies of how thing actually work there and the strengths and weaknesses of those pulling the strings.

He is surely better informed, thus can make more advantageous, even bold decisions using the ties, political, business and otherwise, built up over a couple decades.

Do folks really think he wants Europe, or the world?  Naa... that's not his goal he will however take advantage of any occasion that he deems beneficial to strengthening his future position and country without going to war.  Isn't that what any world leader wants or does?

He has learned a lot over the years, even much from the west - as far as how not to do things go...  He certainly has seen the gridlock of western forms of democracy.  Maybe the west can learn a bit from him instead? 

[Dewed]

I really can't see the U.S. standing by while NATO jumps into the fire. if anything that is exactly what the U.S. is waiting for..

"Yes we'll help, but we aren't going to do it alone"  Call Obama weak if you like, but personally I think that is the correct approach in this case.

[Muzh]

I really can't see the U.S. standing by while NATO jumps into the fire. if anything that is exactly what the U.S. is waiting for..

"Yes we'll help, but we aren't going to do it alone"  Call Obama weak if you like, but personally I think that is the correct approach in this case.

I believe that is exactly what is happening.

[Faux Pas]

I really can't see the U.S. standing by while NATO jumps into the fire. if anything that is exactly what the U.S. is waiting for..

"Yes we'll help, but we aren't going to do it alone"  Call Obama weak if you like, but personally I think that is the correct approach in this case.

I believe that is exactly what is happening.

I would say that is a misconception. NATO is an alliance and will act as one. There is no separation of the U.S. and Europe in NATO. There will be no NATO Europe manuvering in Ukraine. It would be a NATO that includes the U.S. or they won't be there at all

[fathertime]

"Yes we'll help, but we aren't going to do it alone"  Call Obama weak if you like, but personally I think that is the correct approach in this case.

I have to agree with this statement...Obama is not weak in this situation...  If our nation is dragged along with 20 other nations, I could live with that, although i'd prefer we stayed out and if i had a vote would vote to leave it alone...regardless we sure as hell shouldn't be leading the charge.


Fathertime! 

[Boethius]

Here is an interesting synopsis of FSU expert Andrew Wilson's (no, not that Andrew ) time on Maidan.


http://www.theguardian.com/books/2014/nov/05/ukraine-crisis-what-it-means-for-the-west-andrew-wilson-review

[Gator]

This is the Andrew Wilson named in Boethius's post: 

http://www.ecfr.eu/S=0/%20profile/C33


Wilson wrote about 5 things the West could learn from Ukraine:

http://qz.com/277502/five-things-the-west-can-learn-from-the-ukraine-crisis/


I found it very insightful. 

[calmissile]

This is the Andrew Wilson named in Boethius's post: 

http://www.ecfr.eu/S=0/%20profile/C33


Wilson wrote about 5 things the West could learn from Ukraine:

http://qz.com/277502/five-things-the-west-can-learn-from-the-ukraine-crisis/

I read his work before and agree with you.




I found it very insightful.