Poll for the unmarried men

[Turboguy]

jb, you keep trying to bring me into this.  I was not worried about your speaking softly to me.  It has nothing to do with the posts I made. 

Yes, I am not a newby. I don't know where I am on trips totally but I think it is 9 since the start of last year and probably 20 all together.  If I end up being an example of what "not to do" that is fine.  That will have meant I crashed and burned and I will have deserved it. 

I listen to the advice I hear a lot more than you might believe. Just after I listen, I decide what I think is right for me and not what you think is right for me.  I think you and bc and Ken C have a lot of experience and good advice and I pay particular attention to what you say.  I like you guys and I think you mean to be as helpful as possible.  I just think sometimes you are too direct and sometimes the coments have been really in poor taste.  That is all I mean.

[BillyB]

Welcome AJ, with your unique writing style I can't confuse you with any other AJ out there.

Well, lemme put it this way... I wasn't reading RWD at the time (late fall/winter?) If I recall correctly... It got so out of control, and "chopped up" (locked, Mod edits, posters' removing stuff) it was hard to keep up with that "mess"...

Point was, whether it's now an archaeological dig or not, Photo Dude did NOT take kindly to the "advice" being offered him... Was it sugar coated? I'd say it resembled more of a forced rectal exam LOL...

And speaking of sugar... I don't disagree that "tough lessons" in life are usually the ugliest -- But isn't the entire process, of finding a loving RW to be your wife, a pretty rugged task "as is"? -- Why would anyone want to come to a board to express their frustrations about the "process" just to be pissed on? (vs. pissed off I suppose?) Point being - Credible boards and sound advice come in all shapes, sizes and forms... Some sweet as sugar - and some harsh as nails...

But taking the high road by guiding someone who is misguided, whilst instilling some integrity in the process, speaks volumes about a mans true character...

Reading what Killer-b said here and in another post where he said 17(now 20+) pages of photoguys thread is a mess, I have to agree that it's a mess. Good advice in there but who's insane enough to read it again? Lot's of repetitious advice that photoguy clearly wasn't going to absorb.

Many guys want to help but the guys that give advice in moderation will have the most success. Photoguy is to the point he doesn't respond to many of the guys here. In effect rejecting the advice that was given to him. IMO, photoguy is worse off now because he has one less place to go for advice. I know many of you guys are going to say that it's his problem that he can't take it but the wise man gets people to listen to him. The effort to help photoguy has failed not only photoguy but potential newbies reading that thread because they'll quit reading. Yeah, some newbies don't have a spine to handle the truth may be true but my four year old son don't have a spine but I'm going to teach him over time on how to do right and be a man. It ain't going to happen quickly and it ain't going to happen if he doesn't respect me. First I got to get him to respect me and listen to me, then I can give him advice. My son's failure will be my failure.

A newbie looking from the outside in will see that Photoguys failure is the people at RWD's failure too. RWG has a high number of boneheaded newbies and I enjoy the times I can help someone from saving thousands of dollars and heartache from making a mistake. Instead of leaving beat up or humiliated, they end their day a better man. If they don't like my advice, I quit giving it to them. Saves me from typing to a person that's not responsive to me. Too much criticism will have reverse effect thus thwarting the clueless criticisers efforts. How smart is that? The best men to give advice to Photoguy at the moment might be guys like Clyde and Turboguy. Why? Because PG values their input over most others here. I'm not trying to insult anybody here but it's the truth like it or not. Since PG is more responsive to Clyde and TG, they will get better results giving the SAME advice to PG than the other posters here. Clyde and TG may not be the premier experts and may not give out the best or same advice compared to others, but they've accomplished what others have not by having some pull with PG. Having that pull, their advice will be taken more seriously by PG.

I remember posters being hard on Clyde at RWG only for Clyde to leave and I figured Clyde wouldn't take advice from men taking shots at him or making him feel less of a man than they are. Why would a man want to listen to and be like the men they don't respect? I thought it was ashame that Clyde would have one less place he can go to for advice. But then again, it's one less place he goes to where people take shots at him. No matter how some people thought Clyde was going to fail, those same people ended up failing to get their advice to Clyde based on their delivery and their own stubbornness not accepting or realizing what they wanted to say wasn't going to be accepted by Clyde. The result was threads turning into a mess just like PG's.

[jb]

If I end up being an example of what "not to do" that is fine.  That will have meant I crashed and burned and I will have deserved it.

Why, though, would you want that?  I think you have the native intelligence to avoid the pitfalls if you would just set aside these crazy ideas and pursue more suitable women.  You often speak of writing to women in their 30's and 40's, but you only travel to meet with the 20 y.o.'s, why is that?  I'll tell you why, the older, more suitable, women don't appeal to your eye.  It's OK to not be honest with us here on the board, but it's a terrible thing to not be honest with yourself.

You are setting yourself up for the inevitable crash and burn, as you did with the latest K-1 girl, and I'd like to see you avoid that.  On another thread we posted the profiles of several really stunning women over 35-40 as an example, I think you viewed them with only passing interest simply because it was something to read on an otherwise boring day, but that evening you probably cranked out yet another letter to another girl in her 20's. 

That's your mind set.

[Killer-B]

Spot on Billy...

[BC]

Turbo,

You really should have left Photo out of the fine discussion that had started where folks were primarily relating their own experiences on this topic.

Why you insist on opening a can of worms for reasons other than baiting fish puzzles me.  I would much rather see you using your own experience to be argumentative than the experiences of others not here.  I'm sure Photo would appreciate it also.

First you defend Photo and now use him to defend rationale for your POV.

I dunno.. playing white knight never got me anywhere either..

[jb]

BC,

As you know, one of the best debating defenses is to deflect argument away from the topic most difficult to defend.

However, I've come to believe Turbo is one of those who truly believes he is without sin.  No amount of clue batting will convince him that a young girl who is willing to marry a man his age doesn't have an agenda.   I'm married to a RW and I knew what her agenda was.  It was to create a family based empire so that her sons would have a shot at a better life, her own well being was purely secondary.  Her biggest interest was to see her children succeed.  While I filled that stepfather bill, I was also totally interested in the family dynasty,,, and I truly believe my wife absolutely loved me when we finally got married,,, I also know if I had not had the interests of the family at heart,,, first and foremost,,, pure and simple,,, she would have passed me by as unsuitable.

All women have an agenda, that is a fact of life. It's up to us men to sort it out and decide if we can live with it.

If Turbo believes there is a young girl out there, whom he can barely talk to, and she doesn't have an agenda that doesn't have a page beyond being married to man almost old enough to be her grandfather, then he deserves all the grief such a relationship will bring him.

I could clue bat Turbo from now til the cows come home, but I know it would have no effect.

[Admin]

Weighing in on the debate - AND - tying it into the topic below about LP at P-L. I have never had any problem with harsh and straight-forward comments directed at trying to gain someone's attention. When I would see LP flail someone at P-L, I was often one of his strongest supporters. LP, however, was extraordinary at sending a message while NEVER attacking someone personally. Now that is not to say that he never engaged in personal attacks - he most certainly did - BUT - it was ALWAYS after someone retaliated and began to attack him first - ALWAYS.

It is the personal insults that are often hurled and claimed as a "clue bat" that I take issue with.

The other thing I despise is the arrogance and condemning judgements that sometimes comes out of the 'clue-batting.'

In the case of PG - I *always* felt it was TOTALLY OUT-OF-LINE to attack the man's career/vocation -particularly in a manner that comes across as insulting, demeaning, or condescending - which it did in this instance. I have known too many people that worked in what some might consider menial jobs and who have amassed a TON of $$ or find their life's gratification in measures some would consider out of the mainstream - to fall for the trick of believing a person is defined, or valued, by the work he/she does.

I also felt it was COMPLETELY CLASSLESS to make disparaging references to the physical appearance of the girl he was spending time with.

Them's my $.02 

- Dan

[Turboguy]

You're good Dan.  That is exactly the point I have been trying to make and it took me 10 posts and you worded it better in one.  I too have no problem with someone telling someone else that they are wrong.  I just like to see it done professionally and with a little class as well as some consideration.

No, I don't believe I am without sin.  If I would have had RWD to help me make better decisions ages ago when I started, I would be married longer than most everyone here now.  I have made a lot of mistakes and some of them were expensive in both time and money.  I am far from an expert.  I am not sure anyone can ever be an expert in this field.  There are too many variables.

You said you really beleived your wife truly loved you when you got married.  I was reading a poll I think at AWA that said the 95% didn't love the man they were marrying so don't be so sure.   I also obeserved Luda's friend Oksana who with her husband was a love bird and talked of her undying love but to Luda in confidence said she did not love him but he was a good man.  So don't be so sure but as long as they convince us they love us who cares.

I agree with you jb.  All women have an agenda.  Most men do too but we are too close to the situation to realize it.

I agree with you jb, clue bat away, I won't even blink.

[KenC]

Billy,
I think that your post above has a lot of inconsistencies from what really transpired in the PG case.  He was afforded the "kid glove" treatment like most newbies here.  He didn't get smacked around until he started to bite the very same people that tried to help him.  When it was pointed out that his glasses were truly rose colored, he transformed himself from the naive and floundering man child he was into some kind of super stud (in his own mind)  When he tried to be the expert in giving out advice to others is when I personally went after him.  And do you also forget his challenging posts when he came looking for a fight? There is no way this forum should accept any liability for his failure, if indeed he does fail.

I do agree that some of the "advice" given was brutal and over the line, even in my book.  Personal attacks on the looks of a man's woman should never be posted on a public forum for example.  But PG was his own worst enemy.  The more he squirmed to protect his ridiculous postions, the more ridiculous he became.  I think it is ironic that you bring up teaching your 4 year old in your post because that is about the maturity level PG displayed at times.  I too have a son, but he is 26 and already a successful adult.  I didn't sugar coat the world to him, I was honest with him always.  He is a better man for it.  Too bad someone didn't straighten out PG as a child.  But I will leave you with one last piece of advice.  The best thing you can teach your children is to be responsible for their own actions.  To be proud of their successes and to step up for their failures.  Because that is life and PG will have to face the results of his foolish actions, sooner or later. All the glory or the blame will be squarely on his shoulders.
KenC

[Voyageur]

My friend Turboguy takes a lot of heat in this forum, including many personal attacks.  Even after these attacks and with the history he has told all of us about, he still tries to help the newbie (and other-not-so-newbies) in a pleasant and less confrontational way and I admire this in him.   

T/G can certainly take care of himself, he does not need anyone to fight his battles. I agree with BillyB that ultimately people listen to others whom they regard and respect. I do not think anyone is asking anyone else not to say what they think about situations. But sometimes the level of vitriol and anger and rancor says more about the person writing it than the intended recipient. 

[KenC]

Voyageur,
So am I to believe from your post that the quality of the advice given is immaterial to the pleasantness used?  So it would be OK if the advice given was totally wrong as long as it is presented nicely?
KenC

[jb]

Dan,

I'm trying hard to relate,,, really hard.

The point I've always tried to make is that there are some people who shouldn't be here in the first place, frankly, PG was one of those.  He was out of his depth from day one, he was not able to read the handwritting on the wall, and he was not, (to read his posts), able to deal well with the day-to-day transition of a woman who had been raised in a Soviet Communist environment, and who also didn't have a firm grasp of English, into life in the USA.

Anyone can get on a plane and go fetch an innocent and uneducated gal on a moments notice.  However that does not bode well for her transition to life here. 

Why don't we stop making allowances for stupidity and simply start saying what we think?  I am married to a woman who was raised under the Communist, Socialist rule, I know how hard it was for her to get her act together when she got here.  I think we often sweep the real problems of marriage to an RW under the rug in favor of a more PC post.  The women deserve better consideration than that.

Ooops~! a post by Voyageur interrupted me.

Voyager, I don't dislike anyone here, although Billy-B is on ignore here because of his comments about "Only Steers and Queers" live in Texas, and I don't need that crap.  Your friend Turbo gets heat from me because of his inconsistancies, I don't "hate" him, I merely try to enlighten him.  In fact, he is in my own age group.  If I were to meet him in a pub I'd probably buy him a beer, right after I shook him by the shoulders and said; "What the hell are you thinking~!"   I know he isn't that dumb.

And there is nothing personal in this.  Turbo knows that.

[Killer-B]

KenC you just love stirring the pot don't ya LOL - I'll let Voyageur speak for himself, but strongly suspect that no, that is not what he (nor anyone else for that matter) was saying... Give it a rest...

My question is, whilst I thought Dan's Post hit the nail on the head - How come HE doesn't have an "Ignore" button? ROTF! (JK!)

[Voyageur]

KenC,

No I did not mean to say this. I am sorry if you got this impression. Simply, just IMHO, i believe that advice is taken better when the message is presented in an non-insulting way.

The message can be truthful but maybe the way of stating it has big impact on whether the recipient of the advise takes it to heart or not.  Of course, sometimes this advise is not

In my opinion this is especially true when dealing with matters of the heart. Where hopes of happiness and new family are involved. Again, this is just my opinion.

[Turboguy]

Well jb, tell me something, are you asking us to make you the offical judge of who should be allowed in RWD or what. � To me that is showing the side of you that makes me uneasy sometimes.

I believe anyone should be allowed here, photo, jb, leslie. � My exception to that would be trolls and people who have profit agendas and don't follow the rules and a few like that. �  Perhaps we could get Dr whoever it is's compatability test and adapt eHarmonys test to decide who to admit to RWD.

If photoguy was out of his depth that is his problem and he will be stuck with dealing with it. � I don't think it is your place or my place or anyones place to decide. � Someone sticks their face in the door and doesn't create problems in my book we should try to help them.

You are right jb, I know it is not personal. �  I'll be down that way in August and would be happy to buy you a beer as long as you don't shake me too hard/

Voyager, thank you for the nice compliment and the support. � I appreciate it.

KenC as far as your comments to voyager, go back and read Dan's post. � If it doesn't sink in, read it again. � If it still doesn't sink in read it again.

Ken, did I read your last comment right.  You believe advice is taken better when it is offered in an insulting way?  I can't believe you belive this so I won't comment in case you are there editing your remark to say what you ment to say.

[Admin]

Dan,

I'm trying hard to relate,,, really hard.

The point I've always tried to make is that there are some people who shouldn't be here in the first place, frankly, PG was one of those.  He was out of his depth from day one, he was not able to read the handwritting on the wall, and he was not, (to read his posts), able to deal well with the day-to-day transition of a woman who had been raised in a Soviet Communist environment, and who also didn't have a firm grasp of English, into life in the USA.

Anyone can get on a plane and go fetch an innocent and uneducated gal on a moments notice.  However that does not bode well for her transition to life here. 

Why don't we stop making allowances for stupidity and simply start saying what we think?  I am married to a woman who was raised under the Communist, Socialist rule, I know how hard it was for her to get her act together when she got here.  I think we often sweep the real problems of marriage to an RW under the rug in favor of a more PC post.  The women deserve better consideration than that.

Ooops~! a post by Voyageur interrupted me.

Voyager, I don't dislike anyone here, although Billy-B is on ignore here because of his comments about "Only Steers and Queers" live in Texas, and I don't need that crap.  Your friend Turbo gets heat from me because of his inconsistancies, I don't "hate" him, I merely try to enlighten him.  In fact, he is in my own age group.  If I were to meet him in a pub I'd probably buy him a beer, right after I shook him by the shoulders and said; "What the hell are you thinking~!"   I know he isn't that dumb.

And there is nothing personal in this.  Turbo knows that.

John,

What part of have difficulty relating with?

I re-read my post, and break it down to three basic messages:

1) Personal insults are a bad thing
2) Attacking someone's career/job choice is a bad thing
3) Making disparaging comments about the appearance of a person who someone else likes is a bad thing

Those are really the three things I was trying to say - and said, I think. Which is it you struggle with?

- Dan

[jb]

1) Personal insults are a bad thing

Personal insults are a bad thing, as in;  " you were ugly and stupid", that would be a personal insult.

2) Attacking someone's career/job choice is a bad thing.

Frankly, I think it's a good thing to point out if a man does have not the personal wealth and resources to pull this off.

3) Making disparaging comments about the appearance of a person who someone else likes is a bad thing

I'm not sure where this item is going, but I rarely make such comments to, or about people I don't know personally.  Once again, Dan, you may be ugly, but that's your problem, not mine.

I think it's important to seperate agendas, mine is clear, I like truth.  Those who like muddy waters can follow their own path.

[KenC]

Ken, did I read your last comment right.  You believe advice is taken better when it is offered in an insulting way?  I can't believe you believe this so I won't comment in case you are there editing your remark to say what you meant to say.

It is funny that everyone else understood what I wrote. My point is is that bad advice is still bad advice even if offered in a pleasant manner.  Good advice is still good advice even if given in a less than pleasant tone.  Most all of the posters here try to be pleasant first.  If you remember, PG got a lot of nice comments and encouragement until he didn't like the advice given regarding visiting Larissa in a city other than her own and paying for her "interpretor" friend.  He was the one that got twisted because he didn't like what was posted.  He went further off the deep end when most everyone raised serious doubts about her motives when he told the story about her refusal to kiss him.  (Maybe the story has changed now as you indicated in another thread, but what else is new for PG?)

PG got plenty of pleasant advice before things turned ugly.  He made them ugly by attacking the messangers of good solid advice. I always thought that if a guy comes here and asks questions, maybe he just doesn't know the answers.  But in PG's case, it turned out he had all the answers. Whatever.
KenC

[jb]

T/G,

Before I get banned from this board for having started this terrible thread,  I am neither judge, jury, or executioner for the mistakes you, or anybody else makes.  The important thing is,,, do you see yourself in any of the scenarios presented.  If so, perhaps it is time to correct your habits and start thinking of RWs as real live people and not as objects.  Everything you've ever posted is about you, not about them.  Think about it.

[Admin]

Personal insults are a bad thing, as in;  " you were ugly and stupid", that would be a personal insult.

Frankly, I think it's a good thing to point out if a man does have not the personal wealth and resources to pull this off.

I'm not sure where this item is going, but I rarely make such comments to, or about people I don't know personally. 

Once again, Dan, you may be ugly, but that's your problem, not mine.

I think it's important to seperate agendas, mine is clear, I like truth.  Those who like muddy waters can follow their own path.

jb,

"Ugly" is subjective.

"Stupid" is something impossible to discern via internet posts - though one might conclude that since the venue is an internet board, anyone managing to find their way here *probably* has an IQ above the mean which disqualifies them as being "stupid." But maybe not.

I wholeheartedly agree that the board provides value by explaining to a person that this endeavor is expensive and can take a lot of time and so on. To draw the conclusion that a guy cannot afford it because his job *may* pay too little is far beyond the scope of what I believe the board members can credibly offer to others. Just MO.

John - my original post about "weighing in" was not directed at you. It was generic in focus and intent.

I am not so sure your agenda is as clear as you suggest. I have seen about 70 to 80 percent of your posts that were pretty helpful. I have seen about 10 to 20 percent that were true gems. And I have seen another 10 percent in which you were attacking, accusational, confrontive, arrogant and bent of creating rancor.

An example of your not-so-subtle attempt to stir things up unnecessarily is your upthread comment about putting someone on "Ignore."

That comment serves no useful purpose - except to allow you to vent your sense of indignation - and to possibly inspire a response from the intended recipient. You have done this on a couple of occasions. It seems childish to me jb - a kid playing games.

While I applaud your efforts to remain a 'kid at heart", it is sometimes misplaced.

- Dan

[Admin]

T/G,

Before I get banned from this board for having started this terrible thread,  I am neither judge, jury, or executioner for the mistakes you, or anybody else makes.  The important thing is,,, do you see yourself in any of the scenarios presented.  If so, perhaps it is time to correct your habits and start thinking of RWs as real live people and not as objects.  Everything you've ever posted is about you, not about them.  Think about it.

No, no, no jb. You are not going to get banned for this. In fact, judging from the responses, this is an airing of an issue the board probably needed.

And BTW - to get banned now, you have to cross through 3 warnings first - and each one is visible to the membership. If you want to check out the first ever person receiving a first-level warning - check out user Tim7 and you will see the warning symbol in his posts right under his Member ID. Only the fourth level is a BAN.

- Dan

[jb]

That comment serves no useful purpose - except to allow you to vent your sense of indignation - and to possibly inspire a response from the intended recipient.

How could I possibly know if he/she/it is on "ignore"?  That post doesn't make sense... I only knew about it because Killer-B made reference to it.

I don't necessarily want to stir things up, but I was very offended by the comments that said all Texans were either steers or queers.  It may not bother people from Colorado, but it bothered me.  I'm a sensitive guy too.

[Admin]

How could I possibly know if he/she/it is on "ignore"?  That post doesn't make sense... I only knew about it because Killer-B made reference to it.

I don't necessarily want to stir things up, but I was very offended by the comments that said all Texans were either steers or queers.  It may not bother people from Colorado, but it bothered me.  I'm a sensitive guy too.

John,

Allow me to set the record straight. Another member came on and made a CLEARLY joking comment  to someone else that you took as offensive. He told you it was meant in a joking manner - and I told you I had interpreted it in a joking manner - and here you are for the third or fifth time bringing it up again because you didn't like the fact that I removed it all from the board. In fact, I may do it again.

Your agenda is crystal clear John - and it has absolutely nothing to do with the "truth" as you asserted earlier.

- Dan

[RacerX]

Why I sometimes question the “wisdom” of the “old” married members is that it is apt to be:
1.  Based on the experience with primarily one woman
2.  Based on a past relationship that has since metamorphosed into a man/woman kind of thing which may or may not have anything to do with RW or at least the ones whose photos fill these pages.
3.  Based on a woman who can live with a “forum junkie.”
4.  And often, based on a relationship that doesn’t seem to be one of equals (at least if even half of what I read is any reflection).

I also wonder if one man’s (self proclaimed) success has any more value than say a younger man’s failures.  I personally enjoy reading the exploits of those ‘crazy’ guys who are currently out there actually meeting those fabulous FSU creatures whether they fall flat on their respective faces or not.  If I want to hear about married couples, I can always tune to Al Bundy reruns.

[Killer-B]

How could I possibly know if he/she/it is on "ignore"?�  That post doesn't make sense... I only knew about it because Killer-B made reference to it.

Ohhhhhh no you don't jb - Don't toss me into THAT mix - You know darn well what Dan was saying - and that remark was about your shot at BillyB - Had NOTHING to do with my latter comment about Dan not having an ignore button - What part of "JK" and LOL did you not understand?

And by the way, I am 100% Texan through and through, and the "Steers & Queers" joke is as old as dirt - and find it very hard to believe that you'd seriously take offense to that off the cuff (old) joke?

KB-