Poll for the unmarried men

[BC]

That's funny, in the Navy it used to be common to send the new recruits to the Bosun's Locker to fetch 60 feet of water line.  The aviation side wanted a gallon of prop wash.   Operative word there is "kid".  The vast majority of the men who stumble through our doors are 40+ y.o. men, not young, dumb, totally inexperienced, kids.  In my world we treat men differently than we do kids.

I rember in my early AF days they sent me to supply to get among other things.. PropWash..

I asked why do we need that.. there are only jets on this base!

[jb]

Ken,

The difference being as far as this type of relationship is concerned many of these 40+ers are a "kid" in knowledge and experience.

Your point is well taken, lack of pertinent experience is a factor, but should not be a mitigating factor in bad behavior when given the best offerings of the truly experienced members of the board.  I hate to keep referring to PG, but he's the best example, also the most fresh, in my mind, in that he belabored the issue at every turn.  He even turned to such off-the-wall, almost mystic concepts, such as being able to read Larisa's mind instead of admitting he needed to be relying on better language abilities.  In short, he lost the respect of many of the more experienced members when he cooked up that crock of sh!t.  Truth of the matter is, I no longer felt concern or pity for the fool after that, I just wanted him to go away.

[Admin]

Let's let that be the final word on PG - unless, and until, he wants to come back and visit.

- Dan

[Ste]

We used to send the apprentice lad to the stores for 'A Long Weight' - but you have to be aware in my dialect 'weight' is pronounced 'wait' It's not funny if you have to explain it......

Anyway of course the lad would be told to 'hang on a minute' and be left there until:

1. He rumbled the Wizard Wheeze

2. Someone told him about our prank

3. the storeman felt sorry him.

4. The factory closed.

Also we sent folks to the stores for:

1. A Bucket of Steam

2. Red oil for the red oil lamp (railway job this one)

3. An innertube for a Zepperlin (his one was stupid - no one fell for that)

4. A Bubble for a Spirit Level (my favourite!)

Also traditionally the apprentices had to stand on tables and sing us Carols on the last day before Xmas break. Nowadays of course this is breach of human rights and mental torture. Post Apprenticeship Humiliation Disorder.

Ste

[jb]

Surprisingly The RWD Commandments or Tablets or whatever you want to call them are indeed almost never mentioned around here, in fact I had to hunt the other day to even find them

Interestingly enough, we have a current thread,  http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=1684.0 , where Infoman wants to bring a RW he has never met to Paris for a 1st meeting.  I didn't see a single reference to the "Ten Commandments" saying this might not be the best course of action.

I think you are right, perhaps the "Ten Commandment" should be more visible.  Maybe Dan could maybe look into this????

[BC]

Good point jb.

I would sorta lump this together with sending someone money you have never met before.

[edit] gawd...I just looked at this response to jb's post.. i'm getting awfully redundant lately.. is there a virus going round? LOL

[Bruce]

Racer -

"I think my main point was that with only few exceptions, most of the married guys on this board get their "daily input" from a single FSUW and just like any of the members, whose past day or so of life's experience seems to strongly influence their "on board" persona, a little humility wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing. I have no trouble with people expressing strong opinions, hell I kinda enjoy them, but in many cases it hits me like the scratching of fingernails on a chalk board when they extrapolate from their warm, fuzzy, albeit tiny world and start offering advice like an all knowing RW-sage."

Most of the time I agree with you. In this case I strongly disagree with the above paragraph. Yes, all of the "married guys" need to remain as humble as possible. However, I believe most of the married guys are very humble and very polite. Some of them want to jump out and do their best to stop a train wreck in progress. Bold direct words is how they best communicate.

I believe most of the experienced guys on this board have not just a RW but an extended Russian family. They have relatives that they communicate with, or attempt to communicate with, Russian acquaintances, wifes friends etc.  Married guys like Ken, Ken C, Leslie, JB, Connor, Dan, BC also have the experience of reading / communicating with guys again and again over the years on this and other boards. They have seen the signs and symptoms of a train wreck ie. the same mistakes repeated again and again. When it walks like a duck, swims like a duck and quacks like a duck, you got it..........chances are it will be a duck, once again. To their credit they do their best to still help guys, even when the guys do not want to listen. I take my hat off to all of them as well as to the agency owners out there that communicate regularly on this board like Rver (also married to wonderful Rw), and Jack who offer a wealth of on the ground real time experience dealing with FSU women. Bruno adds a different type of agency / computer savy experience which helps guys in different ways.

In my case I and my present tenant are pretty much the only non-immigrants on my Brooklyn block. I ride the train each day where the majority of the population is speaking Russian. Our neighbors are Ukrainian and Belarussian. When my dishwasher conked out last night it was the Ukrainian neighbor next door speaking fluently with my wife and me in broken English to help me take my washing machine apart etc. to see what was going on / help me manage the mini-flood we unfortunately had on the scene. Unfortunately for me, Ukrainians / Russians also answer me in sometimes worse English than my Russian the minute I try to communicate with them in Russian.
I see and interact with more FSU people on a daily basis than just about anyone else in the USA - and all I do is echo the "married guys" above. These guys know their stuff. Though nobody is 100% correct, especially when dealing with matters of the heart, these are great experienced family men who know how to make a relationship work, have a great family, and most importantly, know the intracacies and culture that make RW the unique beautiful women we love.

Some of us have and some have not gone the agency route to help us in the FSU. Unfortunatley, a minority of us, like myself have tried tours and many agencies over a long period of time until I found my wife. Alot of us, like myself, have dated many FSU women, learned alot of language, learned alot of culture and been to many places in the FSU before they found their wife. Some of the married men worked for years and had many trips over to the FSU before they happened to find a wife. Every guys learning curve / level of pickiness is a little bit different, but chances are as a group we have been around the FSU long enough to know the signs of a good relationship and the red flags that will almost certainly come back to bite a guy / make a marriage all but impossible for not only the average, but the exceptional guy.

Turbo, yes a guy often has to make his own mistakes, but a blue sky is still blue and most guys will call it that way every time.

Ken - Krusty........................just great!

Dan's note: Edited to test spurious character problem. NO TEXT was changed.

[Turboguy]

You made some good points Bruce.   I think though one of the things that makes it tough is that there is always an element of luck involved.   If someone thinks that WMVM is the only way that works, some guy will have a big accident and meet has gal with a WOVO.   We can all say Kharvov and places like that are the best and sure enough somene will trip over a moscovite.

Yes, I think for the most part following the examples and advice of those with a lot of expereince and background will benefit those who will listen.   Perhaps that is stupid to say that because it should be obvious.   That is one of the best parts of a site like this is to be able to listen to those who stubbed their toes before you and hopefully some of them will end up with toes that don't get hurt.

[ConnerVT]

Bruce -- A wonderful, well spoken post.  Thank you.

There will always be the two extremes in advice giving. The trick for the listener is to pick out a tidbit or two of something that makes sense to them and will be put into practice. The same extremes come from the listeners. Some will take everything as gospel and end up in flames on the side of the mountain for flying too low. Others will discount everything that does not fit into the narrow perspective that they are holding onto and end up on the mountain next to the first one. We cannot change that nor should we become belligerant with them or try too much to get through to these folks on either end of the spectrum. When we lead a horse to water and he won't drink should we beat him for it? Yell at him? Throw rocks? Should we beat him a year later for this incident?

Ken -- What you are overlooking is that most of the time when things 'get ugly', it is not because one person is trying to change the mind of another poster that's considered clueless.  Usually, they have already been written off as someone who will do whatever they wish, if only to prove they are correct.  They are usually beyond help.

What is considered the 'continual bashing' is rather for the non-participant in the discussion -- the guy who happens across the thread, either in real time, or after the flames have died down, and found it while browsing or conducting a search.  The crusty, mean old guys are trying to show the counterpoint to what they believe is wrong.  To help the one who hasn't yet made up his mind.

For those whom have spent much time on this (and other RW fora) have seen that there is usually a strong "Wish Fulfillment" mechanism that goes with the pursuit of a Russian wife.  Maybe it is what draws guys to RW agencies.  Maybe it is grown by the hype people read on the Internet.  What ever the reason, one of the first steps a person must get over is the"...this will be easy, I'll find a little Russian hottie and set up house..." mindset, and realize it will take hard work to make it a reality.

Finding one or two guys who write "It could happen to you!" can cement that hyped up perspective.  Us old, crusty married guys don't like to see that happen, as it hurts so many people -- the fool who thinks this, the women he writes and meets, as well as the guys who follow after him in the waters he has disturbed...

[BC]

I just noticed a lot of questionmarks in these recent posts and looked at these same post in both IE and Firefox.. Firefox (my normal browser) is showing a lot of ? (questionmarks) in the exact same places IE is showing that funny nbsp...  obviously something is amiss and getting worse.

Reflecting back on my last lashing response to Turbo, I can see where the placement of these questionmarks (at the end of every sentence) does make his prior post seem a bit.. well 'ambivalent' (for lack of a better word) and sarcastic in nature.  I really thought you were doing this on purpose.

To try and set the record straight, I do sincerely apologize Turbo for the undue harshness of my last post when you obviously had already agreed to a sizeable chunk of what I and others were trying to get across anyway.

[viking]

Bruce,

Loved every word. Well done. When you want out of BKLYN for a day and would like to spend some time on the beach in LI. Just shout. I'm about a 30 min drive away and would like to meet you and your family.

[Ste]

I just noticed a lot of questionmarks in these recent posts and looked at these same post in both IE and Firefox.. Firefox (my normal browser) is showing a lot of ? (questionmarks) in the exact same places IE is showing that funny nbsp...  obviously something is amiss and getting worse.

I'm getting similar, but a wierd character not a ?. It's like broken fence symbol!

I'm on Mozilla 1.7 on Solaris 11 here

Ste

[Admin]

Interestingly enough, we have a current thread,  http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=1684.0 , where Infoman wants to bring a RW he has never met to Paris for a 1st meeting.  I didn't see a single reference to the "Ten Commandments" saying this might not be the best course of action.

I think you are right, perhaps the "Ten Commandment" should be more visible.  Maybe Dan could maybe look into this????

Check this out:

http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?pid=2

Maybe a link in the Top Menu??

- Dan

[jb]

I think though one of the things that makes it tough is that there is always an element of luck involved.

I don't agree, there is not much luck involved in this.  There is some hard critical thinking to be done, application of some basic logic and common sense, setting realistic goals, some serious soul searching, careful evaluation of what woman's age group is right,  paying attention to red flags, learning as much about Russians as possible, and doggedily doing your homework.  Even then you will not be "lucky" if you are looking in the wrong area for love. 

I would never trust my future to "luck".

[jb]

Check this out:
http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?pid=2
Maybe a link in the Top Menu??
- Dan

I think a prominent link there would be a good idea.  It might give the newbie a starting place.

[BillyB]

When we lead a horse to water and he won't drink should we beat him for it? Yell at him? Throw rocks? Should we beat him a year later for this incident?

There is no doubt many newbies could interpret and value the wisdom of experienced men leading them to the water but when they see the same men beating and yelling, insults included and trying to help, as it's called, to get the horse to drink with the same results now as was a year ago, the newbies are going to think these wise men aren't so wise after all. I get the impression some people have little tolerance for a forum with too many people who are newbies. Maybe they need to focus less energy on these non responsive people heading for a wreck. I know if I focused to much energy on people like that, I'd probably blow a gasket and leave this place in a huff too. I also get the impression that some of the posters who want to help can't tolerate the people they are trying to help. I see some people/newbies voted with a "thanks, but no thanks" attitude in the poll.

I hope nobody gets insulted with what I've been saying. I have spent more time with you guys in this thread than I would with unresponsive newbies because I hold you guys in higher regard and expect you guys to perform at a higher level or at least get there. People are born equal but they don't end up equal. Everybody has something they could improve on.

Ste, did you find that thread where we voted you moderator yet? While you're at it, get me some chem(chemical) light batteries that the Army uses. Anyway, you've been fired but there is an opening for Homey the Clown. Krusty's been taken.

[catzenmouse]

I just had a long response to several posts blipped when I hit post so I'll just keep it simple here.

 I agree with jb that they should have a highly visible place on the site.

 Bruce, Excellent post.

 Connor, I hear ya.

Ken

[KenC]

Bruce,
Great post! I never considered the number of Russians I have met here since Lena arrived.  I have become more immersed in her culture here in America than I ever did while I was in Russia.
KenC

[BC]

Re: Commandments/Tablets..

Definitely a Sticky in the Starting Out section. Big, Bold, Red, Flashes.. the whole shebang..

[Daknack]

I think one of the wisest things Ive done is meet as many RW/UW and RM/UM as Im able too here in the states.  There are definate differences in personality.  Oddly enough though, Ive met only one couple thats RM/RW.  Take from that what you will.  Maybe th grass isnt just greener for AM but RM too.  Although Helen13 would tell me they dont count as Russian because they are jews.  I think anyone with a head on his shoulders is going to gather as much info as possible and above all take his TIME with things.  More messes are made by rushing a difficult project than anything else.

As for leading a horse to water... you can make him drink.  Pull his head under the water and keep it there.  He will drink!  Sure some might get in his lungs... 

[BC]

Wow.. had to abstain from voting since I am married and finally, finally can see the results!

[Vaughn]

  If there's even one newbie following this thread, I hope you'll read and heed what I am about to write - even after 3 1/2 happy years with my Russian wife, I just now read RWD's Ten Commandments for the umpteenth time since landing by chance on this board - what? 18 months ago? My initial reaction to some of the posts here were akin to skepticism, sometimes resentment. How many times did I think, "Geeez, these dudes are sure being tough on this new guy!"

  I wrote to and then met my future wife without counsel of ANY board advice. I broke at least 3 key Commandments in the course of my wayward path: At my own silly insistence, I wired her some money (along with assurance that nothing later was expected in return). I utterly failed to even consider a back-up plan: if things went South, well, I had always wanted to see the former Soviet Union with my 35mm SLR in tow. And the agency - which happened to treat us both quite fairly - was more than happy to continue translating our e-mails so long as I was content with the convenience of not having to explore other means.

  I am an unlikely example of a man who was able to beat the house odds despite his gross ignorance of the numerous pitfalls that are sure to bring down most like me. In short, I WAS my own red flag.

  There were a few things about ourselves that saved us: I was familiar with her language, we kept our expectations very reasonable, and most of all, we mutually practiced extreme patience. Being older than average didn't hurt us, either. I shudder to think of my certain demise had I begun such a process when I was, say, 35. Back then, of course, I knew it all, and few who had worthwhile advice could manage to sway me. When I see fellows like KenC, Jet, Conner, and BC - to name only a few - serve up what seems like harsh intolerance to some - and then I reread those tablets - I realize that just a couple of years ago I stumbled through a minefield unscathed, and perhaps that's why I'm repeatedly reluctant to dole out advice to newbies. There are so many train wrecks I've witnessed, online and around this town. jb's correct - there's no luck - I consumed every remaining ounce of it in 2001/2002. Sorry 'bout that.

  Although we have many members here who never used an agency, this board isn't an exclusive clubhouse as I once perceived it to be. Meeting your future through cyberspace is not only unnatural, it's extremely risky business. Despite my fortunate outcome, I would not replay the courtship odyssey as I have done it.   

Wake Up and Listen to These Guys!

Respectfully,  Vaughn

[Killer-B]

- there's no luck - I consumed every remaining ounce of it in 2001/2002. Sorry 'bout that.

- this board isn't an exclusive clubhouse as I once perceived it to be.

As us poker players say, "I'd rather be lucky, than good"... Good post Vaughn - And one would think that with your "language experience" (and yes, by the sounds of it, a wee-bit of *LUCK*) all things panned out for you despite a couple missteps?!... But I am certain it was no cake-walk either.  I think in a way, you make your own luck - It's just "common sense" really... But if you look around at the world these days - Doesn't seem to be much of that going around 

Anyway, I just wanted to write you cuz your 2 legged horse avatar cracked me up!!... 

I think you're well qualified to "dole out advice" - You're a member of the "Been there, Done that" club now!

Continued success with you and your wife!

KB

[Shadow]

Vaughn, don't tell others that all it takes is common sense and a little luck in writing the right woman at the right time. Before you know it all newbies will understand this and we have to change the name of this board to KrustyOldMenDiscussion  :noidea:

[jb]

all it takes is common sense and a little luck in writing the right woman at the right time.

I wish it were that easy.    I'm still trying to analyse the data of this poll.... No, no, not what you are thinking, I can easily figure the 75% ratio, what bothers me is that we have a board membership of 1,000+ men, the odd few women who stumble in here, and only 35 people bother to participate. I'm trying to figure out what this information is telling me.