What are your thoughts?

[Slingerland]

 Hello!  It’s been a few months since I’ve posted, but I would love to have the opinions of the folks here.  (Yes, I know how loaded that statement can be…)  A few years back, I introduced myself here: a possible job in Rostov-on-Don.  I knew nothing about FSU women and wanted ideas.

The physical location of the job changed, and I lead a joint American-Russian software development team.  The Russians came to the US for the software go-live period, and a romance developed between me and “Marina” on the Russian team.  It looked like the romance would actually bloom: she had a multiple entry business visa to the USA; the customer was inquiring about sponsoring an H-2B visa for her. 

The she claimed her Russian manager assaulted her.  She left the Russian company and vanished.  She stayed in contact with “Yulia” (one of the other team members) for a while, but then simply vanished.  Needless to say, I was floored by the whole situation.  Yulia was extremely kind, but knowing her as long as I have, I knew she was keeping things Marina told her private (and she did the same for me, too.)

So it’s been a few months… I’ve moved on to another contract.  I still got a birthday card from Yulia and her husband; we exchanged Christmas cards and emails; connected on Facebook.  In other words, our family and professional lives drifting apart.  Then out of the blue Yulia called me at work.  She told me she had a difficult thing to ask me, but I told her to go ahead.  It took a while to bring me up to speed.

Marina surfaced in Kazakhstan, working for a sub-subcontractor of a company under an ESA contract of some kind.  Then during the unrest she transferred to another subsidiary of the same company… in Kyiv.  And now, she is unemployed in Ukraine… she contacted Yulia to ask if there was a chance of getting a job in the USA again.

And that was Yulia’s question for me: would my employer be willing to bring Marina back?

I didn’t know what to say.  It had been a whirlwind romance, and even at my age (and supposedly knowing better!) I had jumped in the deep end of the romance pool and let my heart be broken.  And the way Marina broke it off was harsh: I didn’t know if she was telling the truth or lying to me.  Yulia tried to be the good go-between friend, but I knew there were things she wasn’t telling me.

But it’s been months, and the infatuation is gone.  Up until her “breakdown” Marina was a superb employee and was worth far more than she was being paid.  She would be a good hire for us… unless she had another bolt-and-run episode.

I don’t understand Russian psychology at all so I’m at a loss to decide what to do.  If I approach my boss, then a part of my reputation rides along, even if I don’t work with Marina.  If she went straight to the boss, the boss would still come to me and ask my opinions.  And I’m not 100% impartial here: part of me would like to see her again, even if just to hear her story while looking into her eyes.

So… my question to the gang here… what would you do? 
 

[The Natural]

Well, as you put it here, I wouldn't trust her anymore. She broke your heart as you said and disappeared for months without explaining anything. Then when she's in trouble she suddenly remember (and need) a good contact, you're good again.
 
But ultimately only you can decide this as it's your life. Good luck anyway.

[Faux Pas]

 

But it’s been months, and the infatuation is gone.  Up until her “breakdown” Marina was a superb employee and was worth far more than she was being paid.  She would be a good hire for us… unless she had another bolt-and-run episode.

I don’t understand Russian psychology at all so I’m at a loss to decide what to do.  If I approach my boss, then a part of my reputation rides along, even if I don’t work with Marina.  If she went straight to the boss, the boss would still come to me and ask my opinions.  And I’m not 100% impartial here: part of me would like to see her again, even if just to hear her story while looking into her eyes.

So… my question to the gang here… what would you do?

I don't know what the rest of these yahoos would do but, I realized long ago, I don't think like most of them.

For me, you answered your own question and I'd hire her, if we (company) needed her. If it's a great hire for the company and that is primary in your thought process, go to the top cheese in charge and tell him to make it happen.

Your past romance and subsequent broken heart wasn't intermingling or interfering before was it? Can you work in the same company without harboring ill will whether or not you have another romance or ever get your past questions answered? If that answer is yes, put the gal to work.

[jone]

It is never good to mix a work situation with romance.  There really is no going back.  If she really is as good as you say, help her get a job elsewhere.

Two things I know about Eastern European women:

1.  They never go back to a relationship
2.  Very few times are they doing something that they don't have a reason for doing.

While these seems to be contradictory, my guess is that she is using your former feelings for her to get her out of a jam.  By reciting her work history, she seems more grasshopper than woman. 

Finally, you said it yourself.  You want to look in her eyes again.  Gong! 

[Lily]

I think that I am getting the situation more or less. The question is whether to give Marina a favorable reference at your work, and to possibly pave her a way to some and work in the US?
 
Looks like the professional vs. personal side of the relationships is here.
 
Perhaps a Russian part of mentality would be to use rather the informal ways to help people out of the situation. As an example - Yulia called you out of the blue and asked to help Marina to get a job.
 
Why don't you call Yulia back and ask her your questions about Marina? Well, she may not tell you the whole truth, I know, and it looks like she is on her side, but nevertheless.
 
Regarding your personal relationships with Marina. What would be your gut feeling about whether she was honest with you? We cannot make a good decision here, as we don't know the real situation, and we were not there to observe what happened.

[pokerintherear]

Just skimmed it and could smell drama from the start. Not worth it. Next topic

[Hammer2722]

I think if Marina wants a job in the US, she should contact you directly and not be using Yulia as a go between. Seems like a crappy thing for her to do after what she did to you. ....

[Slingerland]

I think I'm agreeing with everybody's thoughts in regards to the personal side.  I must admit though that my hormones are remembering the vacation she and I sent together (sigh.)

As far as the work side, she didn't just bail on me, she bailed on her job here.  She was assuming my old job, a position of responsibility.  Both my employer and the client were willing to sponsor a H-1B visa for her to immigrate.  But when she ran off the job, she embarrassed the Russian team; to be honest I'm surprised Yulia is willing to be a go-between.

There are a lot of questions here, too many to be answered by Marina going to Yulia, to me, back to Yulia, back to Marina.  Marina sent the Vonage box back, so I think Skype is going to be my friend... time for some serious questions to be answered face-to-face (well, Skype-to-Skype) before I put my professional reputation on the line.

[Gator]

Welcome back Slingerland.  I recall your posts vividly - a very entertaining yet sad romantic story.  For those who don't know Slingerland's story, the above summary is GP vs. the X rating of the real account.

How did the technical project fare after Marina took flight?     Were her technical skills missed, or were others able to pick up where she left off?   If her absence created a void, then I say you should consider hiring her.  If you managed without her, why do you need an unstable employee?

If you recommend her for employment, managers will have questions about her stability.  How can you vouch for her?  You can not.  So you really need to have a long talk with Marina and make your own assessment before recommending her.   You knew this before posting today, so why are you asking us? 

[SteveOR]

I don’t understand Russian psychology at all so I’m at a loss to decide what to do.  If I approach my boss, then a part of my reputation rides along, even if I don’t work with Marina.  If she went straight to the boss, the boss would still come to me and ask my opinions.  And I’m not 100% impartial here: part of me would like to see her again, even if just to hear her story while looking into her eyes.

So… my question to the gang here… what would you do?

Concentrate on the professional aspects of the issue.  The personal ones are gone and if you're smart you won't try to bring them back.
 
From a cold, professional perspective:  Don't give this flake a recommendation.  Your reputation is too important.  If she goes straight to the boss and the boss comes to you for input, tell the truth, especially about your past personal relationship, without giving a recommendation.  Either way the problem will resolve itself without professional damage to you. . .
 
 
 
 
 
 

[Slingerland]

 

How did the technical project fare after Marina took flight?     Were her technical skills missed, or were others able to pick up where she left off?   If her absence created a void, then I say you should consider hiring her.  If you managed without her, why do you need an unstable employee?

I stepped back into my old job (the one she was going to take over) and the customer was very happy.  I still work for them 1/3 of the time as a consultant; they’re hired somebody else as the technical architect.

There are other projects she can be assigned where there is no interaction between us or the previous customer.

If you recommend her for employment, managers will have questions about her stability.  How can you vouch for her?  You can not.  So you really need to have a long talk with Marina and make your own assessment before recommending her.   You knew this before posting today, so why are you asking us?
 

Why did I ask?  Because as you guys know, I don’t have much of a clue about FSU culture.  Lily made a valid point that maybe Marina is tentatively reaching out because she doesn’t see another way out of the situation she’s in.  If Marina was American, I would know how to react.  But the gang here might know a way to interpret her actions I don’t.

What can I say?  I’m a romantic sucker at heart… if I can help her, maybe it would be a good thing.

I’ve sent an email to Yulia asking for a Skype call tomorrow.  I intend to ask some questions we’ve skirted around, and I want to see her facial expression and body language. 
 

[Slingerland]

Skype call with Yulia is over.  I made the call from my home office to her home computer for privacy.  I've known Yulia for a number of years, and watching her on the call I believe she is telling the truth.

She doesn't know what is going on in Marina's mind, and she was shocked to hear from her.  The other blunt discussion points were:

• Yuila was very surprised about what happened last summer.  She thought it was a fairytale romance in the real world.  But when Marina broke it off so abruptly, at first Yulia thought that I had done something horrible.  So she straddled the fence.
• Yulia SUSPECTS that Maxim and Marina were an item in the past and reconnected after Marina's vacation with me.
• Yulia SUSPECTS the "sexual assault" was just role playing.  Yulia said the words Marina cried on the video were "just not right."  Yulia says Marina's speech was slurred... drunk or stoned... and she doesn't believe that Marina was actually forced into anything.
• Yulia SUSPECTS the video was made WITHOUT Marina's knowledge.  When Marina found out about it... and the possibility of Maxim sending it to me for whatever reason... Marina freaked out and concocted a story to explain it.

And my other thread tells the rest: Marina's story spun out of control, my boss got involved and involved the owner of the Russian partner.  Maxim was fired and Marina went off the radar.

So: if Yulia is right, Marina owes me a personal WTF? question and answer session.  BUT... would Marina make a good employee?  To be blunt there are lots of good programmers in Arkansas who don't need H-1B support.

So I asked Yulia to tell Marina I would talk to her on Skype first.  We need to get the WTF? out of the way.  Then we can talk about jobs.

[Muzh]

 
 
I think you are still having wet dreams about this broad and want to dive in head first. And now you are asking for validation for this very stupid move.
 
Anyone feel like saying "atta boy?"
 
Not me. Not even good luck. Sorry.

[jone]

We need a good train wreck emoticom for this forum.

Keep going in the direction you're going.  The train will leave the tracks.  I see nothing in your future with this woman but additional hurt.

[Slingerland]

Keep going in the direction you're going.  The train will leave the tracks.  I see nothing in your future with this woman but additional hurt.

You're right of course, I don't see anything either.  I'm already regretting that I offered to talk to her; I can't see ever wanting anything to do with her romantically.

Oh well... maybe I should email Gemini about her friend here in the US.   

[Hammer2722]

Skype call with Yulia is over.  I made the call from my home office to her home computer for privacy.  I've known Yulia for a number of years, and watching her on the call I believe she is telling the truth.

She doesn't know what is going on in Marina's mind, and she was shocked to hear from her.  The other blunt discussion points were:
 

• Yuila was very surprised about what happened last summer.  She thought it was a fairytale romance in the real world.  But when Marina broke it off so abruptly, at first Yulia thought that I had done something horrible.  So she straddled the fence.
• Yulia SUSPECTS that Maxim and Marina were an item in the past and reconnected after Marina's vacation with me.
• Yulia SUSPECTS the "sexual assault" was just role playing.  Yulia said the words Marina cried on the video were "just not right."  Yulia says Marina's speech was slurred... drunk or stoned... and she doesn't believe that Marina was actually forced into anything.
• Yulia SUSPECTS the video was made WITHOUT Marina's knowledge.  When Marina found out about it... and the possibility of Maxim sending it to me for whatever reason... Marina freaked out and concocted a story to explain it.

And my other thread tells the rest: Marina's story spun out of control, my boss got involved and involved the owner of the Russian partner.  Maxim was fired and Marina went off the radar.

So: if Yulia is right, Marina owes me a personal WTF? question and answer session.  BUT... would Marina make a good employee?  To be blunt there are lots of good programmers in Arkansas who don't need H-1B support.

So I asked Yulia to tell Marina I would talk to her on Skype first.  We need to get the WTF? out of the way.  Then we can talk about jobs.

Dude, after learning all of this I would not give Marina the time of day. Definitely not worth the heartache and your a glutton for punishment if you do talk to her.....

[GQBlues]

I can't envision a company who would sponsor an anyone who had proven to be as stable as a brick on wet mud. Much less one that would involved the DHS. Heck, I can't envision anyone who would continue to associate with anyone, personally and professionally, who showed zero emotional stability and offer no regards to a subject person in her life.

Slingerland, your life can't be this desperately lonely. Why don't you just wire her a wad of cash now with a promise of continued monthly support and be done with this.

At least you can save yourself further unwarranted emotional pain.

But yes, as is always the case, one silly character here will post a silly "give her another chance", and guys like you will eat it up and do it anyway.

So good luck.

...So: if Yulia is right, Marina owes me a personal WTF? question and answer session.  BUT... would Marina make a good employee? ....
So I asked Yulia to tell Marina I would talk to her on Skype first.  We need to get the WTF? out of the way.  Then we can talk about jobs.

She doesn't owe you doodley-phsyt! She didn't then, She doesn't now. That silly romantic garbage left in our brain from being played last summer is just that - garbage. The mind can really be such a terrible thing to waste. The only one who faulted in this entire silliness was you for being so gullible as to paint a romantic picture unto something so blatantly ridiculous.

Doesn't it make you cringe to think you got your company, and its principals, involved in your ridiculous saga? Now, you're contemplating of doing this again? Man, you need to get laid bad..

... To be blunt there are lots of good programmers in Arkansas who don't need H-1B support....

Yeah. But unfortunately, no one will be willing to put up an act and swim in the sheets with you, right? All along whispering BS in your ears about how much of a white knight in a shining armor you are...

Unbelievable!

[Larry1]

What can I say?  I’m a romantic sucker at heart… if I can help her, maybe it would be a good thing.

I think you are still having wet dreams about this broad and want to dive in head first. And now you are asking for validation for this very stupid move.
 
Anyone feel like saying "atta boy?"
 
Not me. Not even good luck. Sorry.

Keep going in the direction you're going.  The train will leave the tracks.  I see nothing in your future with this woman but additional hurt.

Dude, after learning all of this I would not give Marina the time of day. Definitely not worth the heartache and your a glutton for punishment if you do talk to her..... 

Heck, I can't envision anyone who would continue to associate with anyone, personally and professionally, who showed zero emotional stability and offer no regards to a subject person in her life.

Slingerland, your life can't be this desperately lonely. Why don't you just wire her a wad of cash now with a promise of continued monthly support and be done with this.

At least you can save yourself further unwarranted emotional pain.

But yes, as is always the case, one silly character here will post a silly "give her another chance", and guys like you will eat it up and do it anyway.

These guys are exactly right.  It would be a huge mistake for you to try to get back together with her. To forestall any such moves on your part I recommend a pre-commitment approach: hire one of those Cossacks who whipped the Pussy Riot girls at Sochi to come here and if you display any signs of wanting to get back together with her the Cossack will lay into you with his whip.

There are so many great girls in FSU.  Find one of them.  You will soon get over Marina. 

[ML]

Two points:

1) For work, there are a lot of good programmers in Arkansas; as you said.

2) For romance, there are tons of good women in the FSU who do not have issues.

Simplify your life; hire local and start your FSU search for romance.

Go here, and dive in:  http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=14615.0

[Slingerland]

 

I can't envision a company who would sponsor an anyone who had proven to be as stable as a brick on wet mud. Much less one that would involved the DHS. Heck, I can't envision anyone who would continue to associate with anyone, personally and professionally, who showed zero emotional stability and offer no regards to a subject person in her life.

I am 90% positive you’re right: management will NOT hire her back.  BUT… I don’t have the power to hire (but they’ll ask my opinion.)  And since one of the hiring managers is a woman, who knows? 

Slingerland, your life can't be this desperately lonely. Why don't you just wire her a wad of cash now with a promise of continued monthly support and be done with this.

Although rough (and yes, I didn’t quote all of them), your comments have some validity.  So let me add a couple of things about me:

I was raised in Arkansas in the image of Ashley Wilkes (my mother was a GWTW fanatic.)  I was taught the manners of old gentility.  So yes, I treat women in a way that gives them the ability walk on me.  For a while, anyway.  To people raised in a more “modern” (rude, predatory) style of manner, I seem to be weak.  But don’t mistake politeness and willingness to listen for weakness.

Once I’m stabbed in the back, that’s it.  So in the case of Marina, IF she wants any help from me, she can call me.  I will politely listen to her, as I was taught a gentleman should.  And I will just as politely tell her that she burned a lot of bridges.  So I will neither help nor hinder her.  Let management decide.  And they’ll say “no” most likely.

And as far as rekindling anything… well… nope, not gonna happen.  But I can still be polite.

 

[Slumba]

I am glad you updated us with the info from Yulia.

I don't think you should communicate with her, at all.  She will still try to manipulate you.

Even if she knows all that Yulia told you, she would still use the uncertainty present, to manipulate you.  Women are past masters at this, as your direct experience now shows you.

Maybe you remember the case of General Petraeus and the woman he had an affair with, Paula Broadwell? 

She appeared on the Daily Show with Jon Stewart, with her husband in the audience and later on stage, and joked around with both Jon and hubby. Watching it after the affair becomes public, you realize that this entire performance by her, was right in the midst of her affair with Petraeus.

I recommend you watch this segment (don't have to see all of it), and realize that just about any woman who is not either a moron or completely unstable, is capable of pulling off exactly such a performance:

http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/wed-january-25-2012/exclusive---push-up-contest-to-benefit-wounded-veterans


Watch her body language, speech, etc. NOT A TRACE of anything resembling remorse, or any hint that anything is wrong, while she is repeatedly cuckolding her husband and yet appearing with him on national TV.


(Interesting thing about Gone With The Wind: in the 1950s or so, they did a survey and asked which woman they would want to be seen as, or like.  The great majority of women said Melanie.  A survey done in the 1990s I believe, resulted in Scarlett being favored.)

You might do well to remember that in your code of honor, a southern belle commands respect and gentility from southern gentlemen.  But, when the belle commits acts of betrayal or grave duplicity she loses part of her privilieged status.  Am I correct in this?  If so, what manner and level of insult would be required for you to say that "Marina"  no longer is deserving of the protection of such chivalry?

Though not raised in the South, I too have struggled with this sort of social conditioning... so I certainly don't fault you for wanting to be honorable; but a person who wants to manipulate you and abuse your own honor for their material well-being - well, such words for such a woman are just not uttered in polite society, are they? "Bless her heart ..."

[TheTraveler]

i'm with ml:

"simplify your life".

[Larry1]

I was raised in Arkansas in the image of Ashley Wilkes (my mother was a GWTW fanatic.)  I was taught the manners of old gentility.  So yes, I treat women in a way that gives them the ability walk on me.  For a while, anyway.  To people raised in a more “modern” (rude, predatory) style of manner, I seem to be weak.  But don’t mistake politeness and willingness to listen for weakness.

For your future interaction with FSUW I think you should be aware that many of them can sense what they see as weakness in sort of the same way that a dog is said to sense fear.  Many of them (most?) react very badly to any weakness they see in a man.  I'm not suggesting that you act impolitely.  But try to be aware of how your actions can be perceived.

And do not be a doormat.

[Patagonie]

 
I am 90% positive you’re right: management will NOT hire her back.  BUT… I don’t have the power to hire (but they’ll ask my opinion.)  And since one of the hiring managers is a woman, who knows? 
 
Although rough (and yes, I didn’t quote all of them), your comments have some validity.  So let me add a couple of things about me:

I was raised in Arkansas in the image of Ashley Wilkes (my mother was a GWTW fanatic.)  I was taught the manners of old gentility.  So yes, I treat women in a way that gives them the ability walk on me.  For a while, anyway.  To people raised in a more “modern” (rude, predatory) style of manner, I seem to be weak.  But don’t mistake politeness and willingness to listen for weakness.

Once I’m stabbed in the back, that’s it.  So in the case of Marina, IF she wants any help from me, she can call me.  I will politely listen to her, as I was taught a gentleman should.  And I will just as politely tell her that she burned a lot of bridges.  So I will neither help nor hinder her.  Let management decide.  And they’ll say “no” most likely.

And as far as rekindling anything… well… nope, not gonna happen.  But I can still be polite.

You are already renouncing to take control of yourself.
It is very rare that an FSU woman would told you FRANKLY a lot of bad behavior of an other woman. Escpecially in the story you wrote to us.
It is not the time to set up back this story in your work and if the real truth one day comes back you will suffer severely from it.
Are you understanding that what she did at any level was the mark of a LOW VALUE woman.

Are you understanding that by complying you are only aiming a low value life ? And that has huge impact on your esteem. Do you know how much your own esteem is the warranter of your health, and physically and psychologicaly ?

I know that the control about yourself around a woman is THE ABSOLUTE WEAKEST POINT of many men all over the planet. And to be the smartest, the fastest, the richest, the most famous, the beefiest, don't change anything to the fact.

All posters here had very valuable posts. You will the one to chase the mess or to escape from it.
Even when i was like you i helped myself with the price of my pride and it sometimes helps me very much.

[jone]

We all heard you were the 'Beefiest', Patagonie.