What would a U.S.-Russia war look like?

[Ranetka]

Once again, Jone. You dismissed the information presented to you without checking it first. You are not worth talking to. Very disappointed.

[missAmeno]

This is the address I see in address bar, sorry. The article is dated on 24/03/14, title is "Всех кто сдал Крым- посадить. Киев сегодня"

Thank you. I found it now. Its late today so tomorrow I will try to find more info

[jone]

Aside from the fact that you just agreed that such was not law, but a proposed first reading, it is easy to see what is signed into law each day.  The Kyiv Post keeps a running summary of new laws that are actually signed by Turchinov.  The biggest issue before the Rada right now is the Austerity Bill, not deciding penalties about who goes into Crimea.

Sometimes your lack of understanding of your own government is beyond believing.  And you are right.  When I saw the masthead for your quoted source, I immediately dismissed it and went to sources that have reported accurately on events.  I have two in Russia that I read (in Russian) and two in Ukrainian that I read, but I have those translated.  I do not read Ukrainian.

My problem with you, Ranetka, is you say things as if they are fact, when in truth, you knew that such was not an enacted law.  That is deceitful. 

[Ranetka]

Thank you. I found it now. Its late today so tomorrow I will try to find more info

I found a conformation on site vesti.ua.  The law is called Закон об оккупированной территории. If I find a link to the text i'll post you a link.

[Ranetka]

Aside from the fact that you just agreed that such was not law, but a proposed first reading, it is easy to see what is signed into law each day.  The Kyiv Post keeps a running summary of new laws that are actually signed by Turchinov.  The biggest issue before the Rada right now is the Austerity Bill, not deciding penalties about who goes into Crimea.

Sometimes your lack of understanding of your own government is beyond believing.  And you are right.  When I saw the masthead for your quoted source, I immediately dismissed it and went to sources that have reported accurately on events.  I have two in Russia that I read (in Russian) and two in Ukrainian that I read, but I have those translated.  I do not read Ukrainian.

My problem with you, Ranetka, is you say things as if they are fact, when in truth, you knew that such was not an enacted law.  That is deceitful.

I had sai immediately the law is accepted in the first hearing. Despite you dismissing the source I found conformation in Ukrainian source so factually the source was correct. The fact that such law is accepted in the first hearing is important enough info for me. You for example dismissed the facts that maydan activists were paid because no one could present you with the news link.

Your problem with me is that I present an alternative view which you do not like.

[CanadaMan]

The US has made many mistakes.  But I will not go through each of the scenarios you just mentioned and explain why you are wrong on most counts.  While you make the US an aggressor nation, we have not expanded our contiguous borders since the late 1840s.  Russia, on the other hand, is the only aggressor country in the world right now.

The U.S. is not an aggressor country? Huh?
Russia is the only aggressor country in the world now? Huh?

Just because the U.S. didn't try to annex any of the countries it most recently invaded this century does not mean it wasn't an aggressor country!!!

Get real.

[lordtiberius]

Ahh jone picking on the foreigners while the English speaking Judas comments unmolested.  I think thou dost protest too much.  Any more business ops in Putin's Russia? Maybe tea with Lushenko soon?

[missAmeno]

Ranetka, here is more detailed info about proposed law (and you can see to what extend it was distorted in Russian news by yourself)

http://postup.brama.com/usual.php?what=77856

[lordtiberius]

The U.S. is not an aggressor country? Huh?
Russia is the only aggressor country in the world now? Huh?

Just because the U.S. didn't try to annex any of the countries it most recently invaded this century does not mean it wasn't an aggressor country!!!

Get real.

I don't always blame Bush, but when I do, I blame America first, often and for everything and when I can't do that I blame God.

Hope & Change

[missAmeno]

You for example dismissed the facts that maydan activists were paid because no one could present you with the news link.

Ranetka, here is a little bit that I hope will explain better why so many Ukrainians these days are so anti-Russian and hopefully open your eyes on 'paid maidan activists' tale.

http://24tv.ua/home/showSingleNews.do?katuvannya_v_zakoni_siloviki_vikradayut_i_znushhayutsya_nad_lyudmi&objectId=402179

http://24tv.ua/home/showSingleNews.do?ukrayina_v_krovi_yuristi_zbirayut_dokazi_nasilstva_u_chornu_knigu&objectId=405894

[Ranetka]

Ranetka, here is more detailed info about proposed law (and you can see to what extend it was distorted in Russian news by yourself)

http://postup.brama.com/usual.php?what=77856

I was mostly concerned in up to 15 years for cooperation with Russia or Russian representative and restrictive travel to Crimea .  this confirms by your source. your source also points out it is not clear how to define a representative. I guess if become an active law it may give concerns to Ukrainian citizens who currently live in Russia.

[Ranetka]

Ranetka, here is a little bit that I hope will explain better why so many Ukrainians these days are so anti-Russian and hopefully open your eyes on 'paid maidan activists' tale.

http://24tv.ua/home/showSingleNews.do?katuvannya_v_zakoni_siloviki_vikradayut_i_znushhayutsya_nad_lyudmi&objectId=402179

http://24tv.ua/home/showSingleNews.do?ukrayina_v_krovi_yuristi_zbirayut_dokazi_nasilstva_u_chornu_knigu&objectId=405894

Thank you. I 'll read your links tomorrow, it takes time for me to read Ukrainian.
I am sure not everyone was paid but see no reason why my relatives would lie to me just the same.

[jone]

I had sai immediately the law is accepted in the first hearing. Despite you dismissing the source I found conformation in Ukrainian source so factually the source was correct. The fact that such law is accepted in the first hearing is important enough info for me. You for example dismissed the facts that maydan activists were paid because no one could present you with the news link.

Your problem with me is that I present an alternative view which you do not like.

Of course I am not in favor of you advocating Russian interests when they have a gun to the head of their neighbor.   But I am also very cognizant of the fact that you repeatedly say things as fact.  And unless called out, you don't recant.  This was an easy one.  It took less than five seconds after reading it to know that you were quoting Russian propaganda and the source was distorting the truth - LYING. (Why didn't you do your own sniff test on it.)  You did not admit it was only first reading of a proposed action that would never pass the Rada until I called you out.  Look at the history directly above! 

Why should someone have to call BS on you to get you to acknowledge that you are drinking the Kool Aid?

People would take you much more seriously if you chose to actually to think of whether something is being delivered to you to incite you to bad feelings about Ukraine, than to parrot here on the board as something that has happened.  This is not the first time you have done this.  Unfortunately, I have friends in Crimea who drink the Kool Aid for breakfast, lunch and dinner.  They never stop to think if what they are being told is the truth.

If you take time to think in the future, we would much more respect that which you say.  And perhaps you will see that Ukraine isn't a country that deserves to have it's men killed through an invasion.  (Not likely.)

[jone]

The U.S. is not an aggressor country? Huh?
Russia is the only aggressor country in the world now? Huh?

Just because the U.S. didn't try to annex any of the countries it most recently invaded this century does not mean it wasn't an aggressor country!!!

Get real.

Do I think that the US does aggressive things?  Absolutely.  Do I think my country should not have been in many aggressive situations?  Absolutely.

My definition of an aggressor nation is one that conquers other nations to add territory to itself.  Sorry that I did not define that in more detail. 

Just out of curiosity, Canada Man, how many countries do you think have increased their territory through wars since WWII?

[missAmeno]

I was mostly concerned in up to 15 years for cooperation with Russia or Russian representative and restrictive travel to Crimea .  this confirms by your source. your source also points out it is not clear how to define a representative. I guess if become an active law it may give concerns to Ukrainian citizens who currently live in Russia.

You misunderstood. Up to 15 years not just for cooperation with Russia or Russian representatives but for cooperation with Russia or Russian representative that is harmful to national interests of Ukraine. And yes, on proposed law is not clearly outlined what kind of activity would fall under such description and because of this and many other issues (some of which potentially could be in breach of human rights) have been decided document requires approval by international law and should be subjected to the examination of the Venice Commission.

[missAmeno]

You did not admit it was only first reading of a proposed action that would never pass the Rada until I called you out.

Jone, you are wrong too. It was passed by Rada at first reading but there will be second reading and who knows how many more before it (or any other proposal) becomes law. At this stage all what it means is that various legal bodies will look at it.

[CanadaMan]

My definition of an aggressor nation is one that conquers other nations to add territory to itself.  Sorry that I did not define that in more detail. 

My definition of an aggressor nation is one that invades other countries.
Period.

If you want to believe that raping and pillaging a nation, but leaving its borders intact, is somehow more noble than invading and annexing a nation, then so be it.


The U.S. is in a different territorial paradigm than most other countries.
It is unlikely to invade Canada and annex any part of it, although it could easily do so in the future any time it wished to.

Other than that, there's only Mexico to the south. Perhaps they might take a shine to annexing that country at a later date.

Annexing countries half way around the world is a tricky and costly business to maintain.

[lordtiberius]

50 German made Leopard tanks in Ukraine headed east.  Will join the 6 Abrams tanks in theater.

Also more bad news for Vladi, China cut Gazpron out of Turkmenistan gas deal.  China sides with the west.

[BillyB]

  China sides with the west.

China sides with themselves and does what is in their best interest. While the World's attention is in East Europe and America is looking weak in it's actions, China is trying to own the South China Sea by bullying and starving our allies.


http://news.yahoo.com/philippine-supply-ship-evades-chinese-blockade-090235347.html

[Ranetka]

Of course I am not in favor of you advocating Russian interests when they have a gun to the head of their neighbor.   But I am also very cognizant of the fact that you repeatedly say things as fact.  And unless called out, you don't recant.  This was an easy one.  It took less than five seconds after reading it to know that you were quoting Russian propaganda and the source was distorting the truth - LYING. (Why didn't you do your own sniff test on it.)  You did not admit it was only first reading of a proposed action that would never pass the Rada until I called you out.  Look at the history directly above! 

Why should someone have to call BS on you to get you to acknowledge that you are drinking the Kool Aid?

People would take you much more seriously if you chose to actually to think of whether something is being delivered to you to incite you to bad feelings about Ukraine, than to parrot here on the board as something that has happened.  This is not the first time you have done this.  Unfortunately, I have friends in Crimea who drink the Kool Aid for breakfast, lunch and dinner.  They never stop to think if what they are being told is the truth.

If you take time to think in the future, we would much more respect that which you say.  And perhaps you will see that Ukraine isn't a country that deserves to have it's men killed through an invasion.  (Not likely.)

yet again lots of emotionally charged rhetoric with no substance behind. no facts, no contra-arguments, nothing.

[Faux Pas]

My definition of an aggressor nation is one that invades other countries.
Period.

You mean like Canada?

[justme100]

Even if allegedly USA  financially and politically supported Maidan it is Ukrainians in hundreds of thousands who came out on the streets of Kiev in sub-freezing temperature to fight for their future. Crimea people had a right to express their opinion as anyone else and by the way some from Crimea been on Maidan too and were fighting too.


As you are from Crimea do you know if you will be able to get any visas for traveling to other countries. My understanding is, as Crimea referendum was found illegitimate by other countries, you will not be able to obtain visas to travel those countries. Is this correct?

Yes, correct. According to EU law Russian citizens with Crimean registration can now apply for a Shengen visa only to Kiev embassy, not to Moscow. Don't know what about the USA, heard nothing about this.


Yes, I know about people from Crimea on Maydan. I have two neighbors who were there, one of them is now taking treatment course in a  drug hospital, but still happy to have his new chic car.

[justme100]

People come to the USA embassy in Saint Persburg to gift caravay and say thanks for helping return Crimea home

[missAmeno]

Justme, what is your view on alleged Russian plan for Ukraine which they hope EC and USA could agree upon in which Crimea will have new independent referendum and have united Ukrainian-Russian government?

[missAmeno]

Yes, correct. According to EU law Russian citizens with Crimean registration can now apply for a Shengen visa only to Kiev embassy, not to Moscow. Don't know what about the USA, heard nothing about this.

My understanding only Ukrainian nationals living in Crimea will be able to apply for visa in embassies located in Ukraine, those who took/take Russian passports will not be able simply because they are not Ukrainians anymore. So they would have go through embassies in Russia but they won't be able to receive visas because Crimea is not recognized internationally as a part of Russia.

http://en.itar-tass.com/russia/725254