What would a U.S.-Russia war look like?

[GQBlues]

...I don't know and that is a good question. Probability that accurate information on that incident will never be revealed. Trust me here, if it's not convenient to the powers that be, it will not be revealed. If it is told, it'll be suppressed so that few ever hear it. That's the world we live in. Those rules apply to the West, EU and Russia....

FP-

I did a little search and actually found an investigation done by ARD, Germany's equivalent to BBC (western media, if you will)...

"...Fresh doubts surfaced on April 10 when ARD (the BBC of Germany) on its primetime policy special programme "Monitor", produced by the ARD subsidiary station WDR-magazin, aired an in-depth investigation into the shootings, under the title, "Deathshot in Kyiv: who is to blame for the Maidan bloodbath?" The questions raised in their investigation directly contradict the Maidan government's version of events.

The Germans, like the Estonians, are also a very credible source and the German press has invested a lot more effort into the objectivity of its reporting into the events taking place in Eastern Europe than its English-language counterparts.

The German team from ARD interviewed a senior member of the investigation team who told Monitor: "My findings disagree with the official position of the [Ukrainian] government and the Prosecutor General."...

Article carried by BNE.EU

So, no, no Russian bias here... http://www.bne.eu/content/snipergate-who-ordered-shootings-kyivs-maidan

But like you implied, unless it follows the narrative, likely the 'truth' will be buried deeper than the shale they're drilling unto today in Ukraine. But that doesn't ever negate the truth behind this crisis.

[lordtiberius]

Unbiased I am sure.  Because the Russians, the Germans and Estonians, despite the mystic chords of memory are unbiased . . .

[lonedrake]

While there is plentiful video footage on YouTube showing snipers in uniform firing on protestors as well as protestors hiding behind wooden shields being gunned down by police automatic weapon's fire, there is also footage that appears to show protestors being killed by shots fired from the Hotel Ukraina, which sits atop the hill at the back of the square and was fully controlled by the opposition on that day.

Monitor reported eyewitness accounts of shots being fired from the hotel. A protestor called Mikola told Monitor he was on Institute Street, home to many government buildings next to the hotel, who also claims he was shot at from behind, with the government forces in front of him. "Yes on the 20th we were shot at from behind, from the Hotel Ukraina, from the 8th or 9th floor also… Almost from the very top [of the building].. They were mercenaries, definitely professionals."

This claim is apparently backed up by one video that shows a person killed by sniper fire who was standing on the terrace that is across the road from the hotel (clearly visible in almost all the footage) and overlooks Maidan; the direction of the shot seems to come from the hotel, while the government forces were at the bottom of the hill with no clear line of fire onto the terrace.

 I watched a couple of the "sniper fire" footage. Most of the shots came from in front of the protesters. Other footage shows where these snipers were. They were clearly police. They were acting like they were being/had been shot at. I have no doubt the majority of the victims were killed by the police. It was probably only 1-3 snipers that did 90% of the killing. They had an opening where they had clear view and knew exactly who they were shooting and where.
 If you watch one of the medical guys....he was in the crosshairs of the snipers almost the whole time. He was never shot.

HOWEVER....in one footage clip....at least one shot was fired at the protesters from behind and to the right. It came from the same direction that whoever was filming was located. You can see the bullet hit the tree....on the "backside". A couple of the protesters glanced up and to the right.....right where that shot came from.

 Now who was up there?  Could have just as easily been police. Whoever it was did not shoot much more after that.

When I was in Kiev....I looked for that bullet hole. The tree was wrapped in ribbons and pictures. They covered where I believed the bullet hole was. But , all those trees in that area had something on them. Memorials.

[Belvis]

It happened in Ukraine among "Ukrainians."
So, really. Why is your country in such a rage?

You're right, all victims were identified as Ukrainians now. Why in a rage?
Watch and don't ask silly questions:

Can't get past the partisan war?
Ooops, a little miscalculation maybe?

Yeah, ruling junta has made not little, but great miscalculation about partisan war. After Odessa people of East Ukraine will fight by any means to prevent Odessa like massacres. Woman in Slavyansk (East Ukraine):

[lonedrake]

all victims were identified as Ukrainians now.

 What is your source?  I have seen the claims from both sides and would just like to know the truth.

[BillyB]

What is your source?  I have seen the claims from both sides and would just like to know the truth.

The truth is whatever you want it to be. What happened in Odessa adds fuel to the fire for each side to justify paying back the other.


There are other operations around Ukraine where the Ukrainian military are killing pro Russians. Of course ethnic Russians are getting killed in those skirmishes. Putin who says he cares about them aren't going to send his military in to save them anytime soon. Putin's goal is Ukraine and as long as things progress into a civil war, Putin will keep his soldiers waiting in the background only to be used for the final blow.

[fathertime]

You know what I believe and what I think we should do.  But I don't trust Obama to lead or order men to battle.  Until we fix that, there is not much we can do.  Even sending SOF into, means Obama MIGHT hang them out to dry aka Extortion 17.  I am willing to accept your hands off policies as long as you accept that this will be a proxy war and that the West has a right to arm the anti-Putin Ukrainians (the fascists), deal?

 
Well of course we have the RIGHT to arm whomever we decide to…I don’t think it is a good idea in this case, and I would speak out against us doing it in Ukraine.


Fathertime! 

[lordtiberius]

A majority of Americans distrust Obama as a commander:  52%
http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2014/images/05/05/poll.russia.ukraine.1.pdf

http://www.financialbuzz.com/americans-oppose-military-action-against-russia-global-news-58776

According to the McClatchy/Marist opinion poll, 55 percent of Americans consider Ukraine to be important to the national interests of the US. About 39 percent are of the opinion that the country is unimportant to the US. There is almost no partisan divide when the question is raised.

However, only 7 percent of Americans say that the US should move militarily against Russia. About 46 percent of the respondents say that the best manner to deal with this problem is resorting to political or economic solutions and 43 percent believe that the US should be uninvolved in the matter. This corroborates the CNN/ORC poll done in early March when only a small percentage of Americans preferred to get the United States to interfere by armed combat in the crisis.

Two thirds of US citizens hold the opinion that Russia will not be satisfied with only Crimea and will surely send its army into other regions of Ukraine.

http://www.financialbuzz.com/americans-oppose-military-action-against-russia-global-news-58776

This is a proxy war, we should give the Ukrainians (or as the Putinists say the 'Kiev Junta') enough guns to drive the Russians into the sea defend themselves. 

And I am very disappointed in the Germans.

@DamonMacWilson
So called pro-Russian separatists are too organized, too well armed to deny Moscow's hand says LtGen Schissler at #ACCommanders #ACUkraine

I don’t think it is a good idea in this case, and I would speak out against us doing it in Ukraine.

Why?

[Faux Pas]

FP-

I did a little search and actually found an investigation done by ARD, Germany's equivalent to BBC (western media, if you will)...

"...Fresh doubts surfaced on April 10 when ARD (the BBC of Germany) on its primetime policy special programme "Monitor", produced by the ARD subsidiary station WDR-magazin, aired an in-depth investigation into the shootings, under the title, "Deathshot in Kyiv: who is to blame for the Maidan bloodbath?" The questions raised in their investigation directly contradict the Maidan government's version of events.

The Germans, like the Estonians, are also a very credible source and the German press has invested a lot more effort into the objectivity of its reporting into the events taking place in Eastern Europe than its English-language counterparts.

The German team from ARD interviewed a senior member of the investigation team who told Monitor: "My findings disagree with the official position of the [Ukrainian] government and the Prosecutor General."...

Article carried by BNE.EU

So, no, no Russian bias here... http://www.bne.eu/content/snipergate-who-ordered-shootings-kyivs-maidan

But like you implied, unless it follows the narrative, likely the 'truth' will be buried deeper than the shale they're drilling unto today in Ukraine. But that doesn't ever negate the truth behind this crisis.

GQ
I believe this to be key:
"Monitor reported eyewitness accounts of shots being fired from the hotel. A protestor called Mikola told Monitor he was on Institute Street, home to many government buildings next to the hotel, who also claims he was shot at from behind, with the government forces in front of him. "Yes on the 20th we were shot at from behind, from the Hotel Ukraina, from the 8th or 9th floor also… Almost from the very top [of the building].. They were mercenaries, definitely professionals."

Who these snipers are associated with and who gave the order will probably never be known. The secrecy which in and of itself lends itself to be a government entity of some sort. The Fascists is as an easy escape goat as is Yanukovict. Berkut uniforms firing from the positions of the opposition at the end of the day proves little and doesn't exonerate Yanu. Other eye witnesses said they were not in unis.

It was designed for complete secrecy and mystery which points to "power". Yanu, Berkut, Putin and even Nuland fits this profile. The fascists or the opposition, not so much.

[fathertime]

Why?

I feel there are numerous reasons to stay away which I've stated many times upthread and in others.  One bottom line is it is not our fight. 

Of you feel there is a compelling case to commit our limited resources then you should make it.

Fathertime!

[lordtiberius]

I feel there are numerous reasons to stay away which I've stated many times upthread and in others.  One bottom line is it is not our fight. 

Of you feel there is a compelling case to commit our limited resources then you should make it.

Fathertime!

I just think it is consistent some would say hypocritical that you would condemn in stentorian tones the atrocities of anti-Putinist forces while blind to those committed by his cohorts in his name.

[fathertime]

I just think it is consistent some would say hypocritical that you would condemn in stentorian tones the atrocities of anti-Putinist forces while blind to those committed by his cohorts in his name.

You are now just making things up once again.  If you can provide the quote where I loudly criticized Ukrainian forces for attacking pro Russia gunmen I will stand corrected.   Now that you made the accusation if you cannot provide the quote doesn't mean you are lying and further weaken your credibility?

Fathertime!

[lordtiberius]

You are now just making things up once again.  If you can provide the quote where I loudly criticized Ukrainian forces for attacking pro Russia gunmen I will stand corrected.   Now that you made the accusation if you cannot provide the quote doesn't mean you are lying and further weaken your credibility?

My credibility?  I am not the only one criticizing you.  People who hate me agree with me against you.  You won't even admit that Russians have invaded Ukraine . . . 

For all others, VICE News captures the thuggish nature or the new Donetsk People's Republic:



In this video you will see beatings aka mob rule or as a prominent forum noninterventionist proclaims "letting others handle it", and you will see how Sergey demand money from a bank at the point of a gun with a piece of paper saying its legal.

[fathertime]

My credibility?  I am not the only one criticizing you.  People who hate me agree with me against you.  You won't even admit that Russians have invaded Ukraine . . .

You made the accusation. .it should be easy for you to provide the quote. 

Crying victim that everyone hates you is no evidence. Where is the quote? Maybe you were just making things up again (lying)?

Fathertime!

[lordtiberius]

You deny there is an invasion.  You deny that a state of war exists in Ukraine.  You proclaim the innocence of those provocateurs killed in Odessa.  You call the government in Kiev illegal.  Or am I making this up too?

[fathertime]

You deny there is an invasion.  You deny that a state of war exists in Ukraine.  You proclaim the innocence of those provocateurs killed in Odessa.  You call the government in Kiev illegal.  Or am I making this up too?

You failed to provide any evidence for your first lie so why should I bother to address the new lies?

It is interested to see you meltdown because somebody disagrees...carry on...I'm a little anxious to see what you will make up next.

Fathertime!

[lordtiberius]

What is funny is that you are the first to complain about the pettiness of others but cannot see that you yourself are acting in such a fashion.

[fathertime]

What is funny is that you are the first to complain about the pettiness of others but cannot see that you yourself are acting in such a fashion.

I was waiting for you to provide a quote regarding the first falsehood you wrote...but obviously none is forthcoming.

When somebody is so willing to bald-face lie because they're being disagreed with it also calls into question everything else they say...personal history...what they have done/accomplished..etc. 

I'd rather just exchange viewpoints/ideas with rational somewhat balanced people.

Fathertime!

[Muzh]

You're right, all victims were identified as Ukrainians now. Why in a rage?
Watch and don't ask silly questions:


Yeah, ruling junta has made not little, but great miscalculation about partisan war. After Odessa people of East Ukraine will fight by any means to prevent Odessa like massacres. Woman in Slavyansk (East Ukraine):

Sorry but your Ministry of Propaganda info is erroneous. The majority were NOT from Ukraine. You can guess from where. That must be the rage your country is going through.


Putler knows that if he escalates this conflict it will be the end of the world as we know it, as the song goes. So he is hoping that the tourists do their job and create a flood of sentiment towards Russia. The simple problem is that even on Eastern Ukraine over 70% DO NOT want to be ruled by Russians. So get ready for the partisan war.


BTW, keep beating the shit out of the Tatars in Krim. Seems you guys enjoy tribal terrorism.

[Shadow]

And where is YOUR proof of identification?
Or does it become truth when you lie?

[fathertime]

And where is YOUR proof of identification?
Or does it become truth when you lie?

Muzh made a statement of fact...if he has credible links then lets take a look...thus far he has provided nothing...
I'm also curious as to who exactly was killed...I think they were Ukrainians but haven't seen a list names and where they lived yet. 
Fathertime!

[Muzh]

And where is YOUR proof of identification?
Or does it become truth when you lie?

LMFAO


Why do I have to lie? I'm not trying to make millions my vassals. Did you already forgot what happened in Europe some years ago? Or is it that you remember it vividly?

[Muzh]

Muzh made a statement of fact...if he has credible links then lets take a look...thus far he has provided nothing...
I'm also curious as to who exactly was killed...I think they were Ukrainians but haven't seen a list names and where they lived yet. 
Fathertime!

Oh, here is the other one.


Why do you really care who was killed? Do you have a dog on this fight?


I asked you a question sometime ago and you conveniently ignored it.


As far as I'm concerned you are probably getting paid by the Ministry of Propaganda.

[Shadow]

LMFAO


Why do I have to lie? I'm not trying to make millions my vassals. Did you already forgot what happened in Europe some years ago? Or is it that you remember it vividly?

Yes, I remember that 29 million Russians died in order to let the Americans claim victory over fascism.
And this will not be different. Russians will lose the most people, and America will claim it solved the problem.

[fathertime]

Oh, here is the other one.


Why do you really care who was killed? Do you have a dog on this fight?


I asked you a question sometime ago and you conveniently ignored it.


As far as I'm concerned you are probably getting paid by the Ministry of Propaganda.

Thus far the evidence for your earlier statement about who was killed in Odessa is that fathertime is getting paid by the Russians.  That is very strong evidence, perhaps even overwhelming! You mist have had a lot of success in life with reasoning like that!

Fathertime!