Somebody explain this to me

[Jumper]

Svoboda party only got something like 10% of the vote in last Rada elections.

Exactly.

Yet that party formed coalition with other parties to now have a majority of seats in the Rada.

During the 2009 and 2010 local elections in Galicia, the party made significant gains and became a major force in local government.[18][19] In the 2012 Ukrainian parliamentary elections, Svoboda won its first seats in the Ukrainian Parliament,[20] garnering 10.44% of the popular vote and the 4th most seats among national political parties;[21] this transposed into 37 parliamentary seats.[22] In October 2012, Svoboda joined a formal coalition with the centre-right Batkivshchyna and UDAR parties to form the parliament's collective opposition, now a majority.

 Most Ukrainians I know are no more comfortable with the extremist group than they would be with Russia.
My wife and her friends are generally more simply concerned for the future of the country, as neither option looks that good, and frankly are worried at
their  friends that support Putin ,or the extremist.

 I was merely pointing out that this does not seem to be nearly as  polarized for the average Ukrainian,  in comparison to posters responding here.

[jone]

Whynotme,


If you're looking for the Volhyn Massacre, look up Katyn Massacre.  The link is probably filed right next to it.

[whynotme]

There is nothing in the moderation log which indicates any of your posts have been moderated or deleted.

Generally, we do not delete links on this forum and certainly not on historical matters.

Sorry, my link is really at place.

http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=17005.msg356575#msg356575

[whynotme]

Whynotme,


If you're looking for the Volhyn Massacre, look up Katyn Massacre.  The link is probably filed right next to it.

Who was killed at Katyn and how many? Do you see any difference? I don't prove any mass murder...
And very sad that they hide the thruth about Hatyn and 628 others burnt bellorussian villages for purpose not to break peace between nations

[whynotme]

For those who don't know - among 300 chasteners 100 only were germans, others - ukrainians. Now they are heroes of modern ukraina.

[SANDRO43]

Who was killed at Katyn and how many?

...a mass execution of Polish nationals carried out by the People's Commissariat for Internal Affairs (NKVD). The number of victims is estimated at about 22,000, with 21,768 being a lower limit.The victims were murdered in the Katyn Forest in Russia, the Kalinin and Kharkiv prisons and elsewhere. Of the total killed, about 8,000 were officers taken prisoner during the 1939 Soviet invasion of Poland, another 6,000 were police officers, and the rest were arrested Polish intelligentsia the Soviets deemed to be "intelligence agents, gendarmes, landowners, saboteurs, factory owners, lawyers, officials and priests"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katyn_massacre

[jone]

Exactly.

Yet that party formed coalition with other parties to now have a majority of seats in the Rada.
 Most Ukrainians I know are no more comfortable with the extremist group than they would be with Russia.
My wife and her friends are generally more simply concerned for the future of the country, as neither option looks that good, and frankly are worried at
their  friends that support Putin ,or the extremist.

 I was merely pointing out that this does not seem to be nearly as  polarized for the average Ukrainian,  in comparison to posters responding here.

Jumper, you are correct.    And your wife represents the point of view that I have heard over and over again.  We don't want Russians.  We don't want extremists.  We want to remain neutral and live our lives in peace. 

Right now, the hero of the day is the Acting President Oleksandr Turchynov who has had enough sense not to exacerbate the situation further.  It was he who chose not to sign any laws prohibiting Russia from being used as an official language.  It was he who gave the order in Crimea to the troops not to shoot.  It was he who made sure that Russian provocateurs were not abused while being sent back beyond the border. 

This is a man that Ukraine could build a country behind. 

[Misha]

I find Putin using "Nationalist" as a negative word laughable.  In Russia a "Nationalist" would simply be a patriot.  But in Ukraine a "Nationalist" is apparently something to be feared.  Hysterical.

Nothing really new there. Under the Soviet regime, a "nationalist" was guilty of being a Bourgeois nationalism and could be jailed or worse. A patriot was of course a supporter of the regime and this was of course good. Putin is merely using the same logic: a Ukrainian doing things that he likes is a good patriot of Ukraine, whereas those who are against the policies of Russia are bad nationalists and therefore by extension must be Fascists as Russians can rightfully go to war against Fascists to liberate to populations 

[whynotme]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katyn_massacre

I talked about another massacre ... the name sounds very familiar

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khatyn_massacre

[Muzh]

bandera's responsible for a number of brutal ethnic cleansings. (google up massacre in vohlynia and eastern Galicia) killing masses of Jews, Poles and Russians. His portraits displayed on Maidan and groups of people shouting slogan from those times (Москаляка на гиляку - Hang the Russian) send a very clear message to many people.

Can we please be equitable?
 
Lenin clearly stated that for the revolution to succeed, they had to kill at least 10% of the population to create enough fear for it to be taken seriously, and then he proceeded to do so.
 
Now, every city, town, and village has a statue of Lenin. Let's not talk about Stalin.
 
There were mass killings on both sides. One was NOT more benign than the other.

[Muzh]

Yet many Ukrainians themselves see the leaders of protester in several cities as being leaning far towards nazism and fascism.

My inlaws live in eastern Ukraine, Russified Eastern Ukraine. Where the word nazi and fascism is very taboo. And they tell me that the nazi menace from western Ukraine is a real joke. Many are more concerned about the nazis coming from Moscow.

[Misha]

Also, it is always about having people look left when what concerns you is to the right. I was reading an intriguing piece that detailed how the Russian army is still dependant on suppliers located in Ukraine to ensure that their helicopters can even fly:

It is difficult to overestimate the significance of Motor Sich [based in Ukraine] for our [Russian] aviation at least because its engines are used in all our helicopters, including the combat ones: all modifications of Mi-8, Mi-171, Mi-24, Mi-35, Mi-26, Mi-28, Ka-27, Ka-29, Ka-32, Ka-50, Ka-52... Some of these engines are manufactured (or assembled from supplied components) in Russia, but only some and not very many at all. No earlier than on 18 December 2012, did Russia manage to assemble the VK-2500 engine for Ka-52 and Mi-28 out of Russian components, a local version of TV3-11BMA once designed by Motor Sich specifically for Ka-50. Previously, Russia used to receive the majority of components for VK-2500 from Motor Sich.

It is a known fact that Russian servicemen are expecting over 1,000 new attack helicopters (not including the transport ones) to be delivered shortly, which means at least 3,000 engines, two main ones per each helicopter and at least one spare one. However, Russian manufacturers are clearly not capable yet of producing so many new engines: 50 such engines were planned to be made in 2013, but no victorious reports were observed. Even if everything goes as planned, this is not enough to implement the helicopter programme because old engines will also need to be replaced. Therefore Ukraine's Motor Sich remains the main supplier of VK-2500 and its components as well as other engines for helicopters used by the Russian Air Force.

In spite of the bravado, Russia is still coasting on the manufacturing supply chain established by the Soviet Union. The generals must have freaked when they understood the certain outcome of Ukraine turning to the West and the impact of this on Russian military armaments  Russia is talking loud to divert attention from the fact that it is carrying a small stick.

Source: http://gorshenin.eu

[GQBlues]

So now Obama is in a European cruise mode to convince the European leaders to take this silly sanction further than where it is today. But with Europe's serious economic woes, elevating the sanctions already in place is tempting Russia of a counter move which will undoutedly send the European economy in an even more precarious tumble. They jobless rate are still in the double digits with a large majority of that number in the younger crowd. In Spain, I believe, the jobless rate for the younger set is a whopping 50%. The EU's deficits are equal to or are more than their respective GDPs.

Any serious nudge, like losing 30% of their energy source, even for a short duration of time - will be catastrophic.

A buck tells me this will be another sell-out, as was the League of Nations, the UN, etc...; and like I said before, Obama will soon learn a bitter lesson in diplomacy when dealing with our brethren across the pond.

The US should not even be in this silly crisis. There's absolutely NO reason to be other than Obama seeking ways to get back at Putin for his silly bruised ego.

[Misha]

Any serious nudge, like losing 30% of their energy source, even for a short duration of time - will be catastrophic.

It would be 30% of their natural gas, not their energy. Great strategy, except for the fact that it is spring and Europe has stockpiled gas after Russia played the "we will cut off your gas" card a couple of time    If Putin wants to freeze Europe into submission, he should time his invasions for the late fall so Europe runs out by the January  [size=78%] [/size]

[GQBlues]

Agree with you Misha, somewhat...but not fully.

I'm sure they can increase Norway's output in addition to what they get out of Africa. But these are, for the most part, temporary fixes that even the Europeans leaders are not too comfortable chewing on at this present time. Heck, they even have 'stockpile' volume at this time, but if the crisis was never a threat to European economy, one would think this should not have been a *crisis* to begin with, no?

The powers-that-be aren't quite convince this matter is a simple matter at all otherwise they would've jumped all over this issue prior to the referendum and a parade of Biden, then Obama should not have to take place and these clowns would be at the homefront peddling their silly insurance before the deadline instead.

Anyway, the US is better off sending the technology to Europe instead of importing gas to Europe to wean itself of their dependency with Russian energy source. The Europeans can then begin their own 'fracking' production. But either way, this is and will still be, years away. Even Russia's option of marketing their NG to Asia would require large capital and little return and will also take years to take place.

Both Russia and Europe neither have time or 'timing' on their side at this time. It's just a question of when does this push comes to shove. Neither is in a position to try at this time...

[Muzh]

Here is an interesting panel. Be forewarned it is about 2 hours long so those with short attention spans or unable to listen to an opposing point of view will be easyly bored. However, it may explain a lot of the discussion on this forum.
 
Russia's Annexation of Crimea
 
Regional experts talked about Ukrainian reaction to Russia’s annexation of Crimea, and the country’s political prospects. They also discussed the logic of Russian actions, and the impact on U.S. and European Union policies in the region.
 
http://www.c-span.org/video/?318412-1/russias-annexation-crimea

[Misha]

Agree with you Misha, somewhat...but not fully.

I'm sure they can increase Norway's output in addition to what they get out of Africa. But these are, for the most part, temporary fixes that even the Europeans leaders are not too comfortable chewing on at this present time. Heck, they even have 'stockpile' volume at this time, but if the crisis was never a threat to European economy, one would think this should not have been a *crisis* to begin with, no?

The thing is, gas contributes something close to 25% of the Russian state's revenues. Stop selling gas to Europe, and soon Russia won't be paying pensions. We all know how testy those babushki can become    Exporting gas to China would mean building a pipeline through or over the Altai mountains if you want the shortest route (good luck with that) or going way out East through forest and swamp at a cost of at least $8 million per km.


All told, Russia threatening to cut off gas to Europe is a case of it cutting off its nose to spite its face. It will be the one that will be seriously hurt in the long run

[GQBlues]

Exporting gas to China won't help them because it won't make sense for China do this because the western sanction would likely include not doing business with any countries doing business with Russia. China relies very heavily on global commerce. There isn't such a huge commercial interest with Russia alone.

India? Same thing. So this is not even in the loop for options with Russia. Long term, Russia and the US is screwed which results on market imbalance the world over.

Short & Mid-term, Europe is screwed, Russia is screwed, and eventually so do the US & China.

All of these goes beyond just a Gas/Oil issue between the two economic zones. At the present time, $ 400 billion of annual trade in the Euro-Russia trade is vital to Europe as much if not more so than Russia, hence the apprehension, deliberation and the coaxing that took place in Brussels last week and Obama's visit this week.

add: I won't be surprised if these guys aren't already getting together and are instead discussing 'exit' strategies and get themselves out of this mess with as much face-saving grace as they can.

[Ranetka]

Can we please be equitable?
 
Lenin clearly stated that for the revolution to succeed, they had to kill at least 10% of the population to create enough fear for it to be taken seriously, and then he proceeded to do so.
 
Now, every city, town, and village has a statue of Lenin. Let's not talk about Stalin.
 
There were mass killings on both sides. One was NOT more benign than the other.

Do as I did - find Right Sector and Svoboda programs - they are available online. Read it, ask your wife to translate. Do not believe someone's opinion, form your own. After that we can talk again why I posted that link.

[2tallbill]

I talked about another massacre ... the name sounds very familiar

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khatyn_massacre

You are talking about this?

http://www.volhyniamassacre.eu/history/history

http://www.economist.com/blogs/easternapproaches/2013/07/polish-ukrainian-relations

[Dewed]

Think with your head.  Disbelieve half of what you hear and then discount the other part by 2/3rds.

   I like to follow up with 3/8 of a fifth of my favorite adult beverage.

[JayH]

All told, Russia threatening to cut off gas to Europe is a case of it cutting off its nose to spite its face. It will be the one that will be seriously hurt in the long run

This is a key point to illustrate Putin's stupidity. His actions have guaranteed that Russia will never again be trusted in any way. It has already accelerated all the thinking on how to cut the reliance on Russian anything. If the world had continued on a path to greater stability--Russia would have had a prosporous future--now it will again be cast as a world pariah.Alternative gas supply is not far away- Russia will be cut out of the system soon.
The improvements in Russia will remain static and start to fall behind the world again-- the question is how much of that so called "support" for Putin will endure that-- and for how long?
Typical of dictatorships  is the creation of bs to sell its own citizens-and Moscow is up to it's neck in that.

[Dewed]

Can't remember where I read it, but a quote that stuck with me.. in WWII context
"Part of the brilliance of being stupid is unpredictability."

 Frankly that's the scariest part of all of this to me. Putin seems to be thinking short term and has yet to realize the long term results of his actions. I would think being globally shunned ain't no picnic.

[whynotme]

You are talking about this?

http://www.volhyniamassacre.eu/history/history

http://www.economist.com/blogs/easternapproaches/2013/07/polish-ukrainian-relations

No. Khatyn was in Belarus. Your links are about Volhyn massacre. Well, the same murderers.

And their inheritors
http://www.globalresearch.ca/who-is-in-charge-of-ukraine-today-ukraines-neo-nazis/5374443

[Muzh]

No. Khatyn was in Belarus. Your links are about Volhyn massacre. Well, the same murderers.

And their inheritors
http://www.globalresearch.ca/who-is-in-charge-of-ukraine-today-ukraines-neo-nazis/5374443

You knew I was going to dig this up.
 

While many of Globalresearch.ca's articles discuss legitimate humanitarian or environmental concerns, the site has a strong undercurrent of reality warping and bullshit throughout its pages, especially in relation to taking its news from "Russia Today", along with other unreliable and/or open sources.
 

Rational Wiki
 
Democratic Underground