The Propaganda War

[LiveFromUkraine]

Logic, not bias, says if the majority of Ukrainians are pro Russian and pro Yanukovych, Putin would just need to sit back and let the Ukrainians elect another pro Russian candidate instead of doing what he's doing.


Anybody with half a brain knows Ukrainian elections are always rigged.  I've never started a hate campaign against Yanukovych in the past and not making statements now because I'm upset, it's a fact Ukrainian elections are rigged just as some protestors are paid.  It's also a fact anybody who comes close to beating Yanukovych is jailed or poisoned. If the man enjoys such popularity to win elections easily, he and his master, Putin, wouldn't need to do those things.

lol  First you say America would help protect elections from being rigged and now you are stating Yanu's elections were rigged even though EU and Canada monitored them. 


Anyone with half a brain would understand why some would elect Yanu since nothing really changed under this orange revolution administration.  Instead of giving people there more credit you seem to think they are idiots for not electing the same group who did nothing to help their lives.

According to an OSCE report the elections are in line with European standards and were "much more democratic than in many other former Soviet countries."

http://www.robert-schuman.eu/en/eem/0950-viktor-yanukovych-winner-of-the-presidential-election-in-ukraine


Billy, logic would state that people decided to give a new runner a chance to see if things change.  Why is this so hard to understand?

[BillyB]

lol  First you say America would help protect elections from being rigged and now you are stating Yanu's elections were rigged even though EU and Canada monitored them. 

Do you know why people have a hard time debating you? Because you put words in people's mouths and make stuff up, then get excited over something they never said.


I said earlier UN will help protect elections and America assists people in other nations to get to the point they can have a fair and free election. America will let UN, not themselves, monitor the election.

Anyone with half a brain would understand why some would elect Yanu since nothing really changed under this orange revolution administration.  Instead of giving people there more credit you seem to think they are idiots for not electing the same group who did nothing to help their lives.

Again you're making stuff up about my opinions and getting excited about it. Can you quote me more often? You'll make less mistakes. Earlier I mentioned leaders in the Orange Revolution have failed. I also said everybody in the current Ukrainian government should lose their job, not just Yanukovych, because they too, as a whole, failed the Ukrainian people.

http://www.robert-schuman.eu/en/eem/0950-viktor-yanukovych-winner-of-the-presidential-election-in-ukraine[/color]

I can find special interest websites to support my argument too but why don't you go to the website that matters most? Probably won't support your argument? Go to the OSCE website and read their report on Ukraine's last presidential election based on what they monitored. They said the election met most international commitments, not all. Although Central Election Commission (CEC) signed off the election, 33% of the members wrote dissenting opinions. 33% is not a majority but one out three members seen something wrong with Ukraine's last election. That is 33% too much IMO to call the election fair.

[missAmeno]

What CIA chief John Brennan did in Kiev last week?

I do not know even if he was there for sure but even if he did that is such minuscule matter in the whole thing that it doesn't matter anymore.

I have grown up in city about 50 miles from Kiev. Regardless what Russian media tries to portray in news these days Kiev and its surrounds never have been anti-Russian. Half of population spoke Russian, another half spoke in something broken between Russian and Ukrainian, very rarely you would come across someone who in day to day life spoke clean Ukrainian language. Never met anyone who strongly disliked Russia and/or its population.

And I do not know no one Ukrainian who wants Ukraine once again be part of Russia. No one! I am not saying there isn't such people but no, they are not majority whatsoever. I do not know either anyone who hates Russia and/or Russians (yet! because many soon will after what Russians do in Ukraine) But I do know those who ready to fight for Ukrainian independence and no, not because they are brainwashed by Ukrainian news but because they do not want to be part of Russia in any form or shape.

[LiveFromUkraine]

Do you know why people have a hard time debating you? Because you put words in people's mouths and make stuff up, then get excited over something they never said.

I'm getting excited?  It seems you are making stuff up bro.  The only person I see getting excited is you and that is probably because you got called out for being biased.

I said earlier UN will help protect elections and America assists people in other nations to get to the point they can have a fair and free election. America will let UN, not themselves, monitor the election.

You said America will promote fair elections by UN monitors.  You still don't accept the word of third party monitors because it goes against your bias. 

This is what you stated.

America can get involved but will promote UN monitors to watch the elections, not rig the election.

I said the same thing. 

First you say America would help protect elections from being rigged and now you are stating Yanu's elections were rigged even though EU and Canada monitored them.

Now Billy is trying to twist things around by saying I am putting words in his mouth.  Sorry Billy, go back to the corner.

Again you're making stuff up about my opinions and getting excited about it. Can you quote me more often? You'll make less mistakes. Earlier I mentioned leaders in the Orange Revolution have failed. I also said everybody in the current Ukrainian government should lose their job, not just Yanukovych, because they too, as a whole, failed the Ukrainian people.

Nah, you keep stating the elections were rigged and I stated why I thought you were wrong and the logic behind it.  I can't help if you are at a loss for words and instead of debating me on my points you decided to make this personal with "Excitement" and misquotations. 


You sound like a politician man.

I can find special interest websites to support my argument too but why don't you go to the website that matters most? Probably won't support your argument? Go to the OSCE website and read their report on Ukraine's last presidential election based on what they monitored. They said the election met most international commitments, not all. Although Central Election Commission (CEC) signed off the election, 33% of the members wrote dissenting opinions. 33% is not a majority but one out three members seen something wrong with Ukraine's last election. That is 33% too much IMO to call the election fair.

Post away dude.  I also would be interested in your explanation into the special interests of the group behind the link I posted.   As far as I know this is a EU based research group who said the election of a (according to you) Pro Russian was all fair. 

Maybe we should get Ukranian monitors because our last couple of elections have been seriously debateable as to their "fairness".


We can't even get our elections 100% right without any problems and you expect other countries to do the same. 

[missAmeno]

Are you sure you inderstand the situation?

Yes, I am sure
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xVDx-TqeWj4&feature=youtu.be

[ghost of moon goddess]

There are many posts about it on FB. Those people are not Russians. They are local, they are pro-Russian ("pro-Soviet" would be better to say), but they are Ukrainians.
Local militsia, local "Berkut" in some places support them. Those masked men are mostly veterans (who were in Afganistan, etc.) and ex-military men.

The word "поребрик'' (curb/kerb) is not used in Ukraine 

[Chelseaboy]

They must be undercover USA operatives then,fully skilled in the Russian language..because they can't possibly be Russian troops fermenting trouble in a neighbouring country can they ?

Nah..the Russian and also the anti  evil  USA posters are sure that cannot be.

It's all a USA/EU conspiracy after all and poor Putler is soooo misunderstood by his non- fanboys/girls 

[Ranetka]

The word "поребрик'' (curb/kerb) is not used in Ukraine 

1

really? I googled поребрик Донбасс and a dozen ads come up selling curb calling in ПОРЕБРИК in Donbass region. May be they don't call it this where you live?

[LiveFromUkraine]

They must be undercover USA operatives then,fully skilled in the Russian language..because they can't possibly be Russian troops fermenting trouble in a neighbouring country can they ?

Nah..the Russian and also the anti  evil  USA posters are sure that cannot be.

It's all a USA/EU conspiracy after all and poor Putler is soooo misunderstood by his non- fanboys/girls 

That's only because Russia hasn't perfected the drone attacks.  The US wouldn't get their hands dirty when they can hire it out to contractors. 

[Ranetka]

http://atf-zarya.com.ua/trotuarnye-elementy/porebrik

there...your curb sold in Donetsk and called it not бордюр, not even бровка or трампель but .....ta-da... поребрик......

[GQBlues]

So, USS Donald Cook was supposedly buzzed by 2 SU-24 fighters in the black sea. They report this is a direct provocation by the Russian government. To which I say...WTF is an American battleship still doing on the black sea? Their presence there alone is a provocation to this crisis.

The NATO exercise had long since pass and if this is an extended NATO exercise, then why don't they get Europe's fleet out there instead.

Another fine European mess we're about to get pulled into again.

[Gator]

The best way to determine the identity of the protestors is for the Ukrainian security services to encircle one of these buildings, storm it and and take prisoners.   And be prepared for a counterattack. 

Interrogation of prisoners would determine their identity.   Yes, it could get bloody.  As it stands now, Ukraine does not defend itself.  That fact is not lost on the rest of the world.   

[fathertime]

So, USS Donald Cook was supposedly buzzed by 2 SU-24 fighters in the black sea. They report this is a direct provocation by the Russian government. To which I say...WTF is an American battleship still doing on the black sea? Their presence there alone is a provocation to this crisis.

The NATO exercise had long since pass and if this is an extended NATO exercise, then why don't they get Europe's fleet out there instead.

Another fine European mess we're about to get pulled into again.

Well I have to agree...I don't even see the point of the destroyer being there at all.  If anything is launched off of it, Russia would have reason to blow it up, at which point we have an unnecessary escalation.  At which point, I would suspect the American people will be furious with Obama for putting it's crew members in harms way and involving us. 


Obviously our nation would be angered if Russian war vessels started showing up around Florida and Cuba.  Since the ship being there serves no purpose that I can think of, I feel we should move it out of there to keep our military out of this conflict. 


Fathertime!   

[Chelseaboy]

The Destroyer is there at the behest of Romania.


Why Romania specifically asked for a USA Warship,rather than a British or German one for example ,is open to debate.

[Ranetka]

The best way to determine the identity of the protestors is for the Ukrainian security services to encircle one of these buildings, storm it and and take prisoners.   And be prepared for a counterattack. 

Interrogation of prisoners would determine their identity.   Yes, it could get bloody.  As it stands now, Ukraine does not defend itself.  That fact is not lost on the rest of the world.

it's the beginning of a Civil War. Stuff often happening after revolutions. There are certainly all kind of people, including Russians, Russian agents, all kind of men wanting a bit of action for different reasons...But the majority are locals or semi-locals acting with support of local population and local police etc. It is NOT Ukraine defending itself, it is Civil War with neighbour v neighbour.

it could get as lovely as in Syria where democratic revolution has now forced over a million people out of their homes seeking refuge in neighbouring countries. Since Russia has an interest in the region and at the very least does not want refugees from across the border the Syrian scenario is not going to happen. But military operations are very possible. The west will of course cry invasion and blame Putin....

[BillyB]

The NATO exercise had long since pass and if this is an extended NATO exercise, then why don't they get Europe's fleet out there instead.

There's nobody better than America when it comes to security. Europe can't even rely on themselves to get it done. One American ship near Russia in response to tens of thousands of Russia's troops and war equipment on Ukraine's border isn't much for Russia to worry about and claim provocation.


The Philippines recently was bullied by China and now inviting American troops into their country. Again, people say America sticks it's nose in too many people's business but when there is trouble, America is first to be called on....to stick it's nose in somebody's business.


http://news.yahoo.com/philippines-aims-us-defence-deal-obama-visit-174845753.html

[Faux Pas]

So, USS Donald Cook was supposedly buzzed by 2 SU-24 fighters in the black sea. They report this is a direct provocation by the Russian government. To which I say...WTF is an American battleship still doing on the black sea? Their presence there alone is a provocation to this crisis.

The NATO exercise had long since pass and if this is an extended NATO exercise, then why don't they get Europe's fleet out there instead.

Another fine European mess we're about to get pulled into again.

Well I have to agree...I don't even see the point of the destroyer being there at all.  If anything is launched off of it, Russia would have reason to blow it up, at which point we have an unnecessary escalation.  At which point, I would suspect the American people will be furious with Obama for putting it's crew members in harms way and involving us. 


Obviously our nation would be angered if Russian war vessels started showing up around Florida and Cuba.  Since the ship being there serves no purpose that I can think of, I feel we should move it out of there to keep our military out of this conflict. 


Fathertime!   

The Donald Cook has as much right to be in the Black Sea as any other warship from any other nation. The Black Sea is international waters.No nation has the right to buzz it without a just response. Doesn't matter "why" it's there, what matters is how other nations in the region/area respond to it. It is certainly cause for concern and caution. The 6th fleet isn't that far away and if it should appear in the Black Sea, it isn't a threat. It's a warning war is near.

IMHO

[GQBlues]

Well I have to agree...I don't even see the point of the destroyer being there at all.  If anything is launched off of it, Russia would have reason to blow it up, at which point we have an unnecessary escalation.  At which point, I would suspect the American people will be furious with Obama for putting it's crew members in harms way and involving us....

Of course. Hell, I didn't see any Russian warships cruising along Venezuela's coastline during their recent unrest. 

....Obviously our nation would be angered if Russian war vessels started showing up around Florida and Cuba.  Since the ship being there serves no purpose that I can think of, I feel we should move it out of there to keep our military out of this conflict. 

Too late, at least according to this idiot...

...“Donald Cook’s mission is to reassure NATO allies of the U.S. Navy’s commitment to strengthen and improve interoperability while working toward mutual goals in the region.”...

So it isn't about any silly request by any country, or any NATO exercises.


"....On Wednesday, NATO’s top military commander in Europe said American troops may be deployed to the alliance’s member states in Eastern Europe...."
 

...Essentially what we are looking at is a package of land, air and maritime measures that would build assurance for our easternmost allies.

Another bored & giddy General-in-Charge.

http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2014/04/10/357995/us-to-send-more-fighter-jets-to-poland/


Why we always get stuck into these messes is beyond me.

1. Ukraine wanted their independence, they ought to earn and fight for it to the last man - by themselves. Hell, drag the French & Germans into the mess if they have to.

2. Europe wants their phocking gas, have them take it from Russia. Hell, even the Neatherlands just passed a law to decrease their production of gas despite knowing EU is in need to secure all possible means for alternative sources.

[GQBlues]

The Donald Cook has as much right to be in the Black Sea as any other warship from any other nation. The Black Sea is international waters.No nation has the right to buzz it without a just response. Doesn't matter "why" it's there, what matters is how other nations in the region/area respond to it. It is certainly cause for concern and caution. The 6th fleet isn't that far away and if it should appear in the Black Sea, it isn't a threat. It's a warning war is near.

IMHO

You certainly can make the argument FP, but that isn't why it is there. See post above.

[Faux Pas]

You certainly can make the argument FP, but that isn't why it is there. See post above.

GQ
It's merely a presence, nothing more. The actual reason why it is there is pretty obvious but, nobody will admit to it. Neither will any of the other dozen or so countries that have a ship there. Russia and a dozen other countries are close to the U.S. in international waters on a regular basis. My point is/was, it's not unusual. What is unusual is for it to be buzzed intentionally. Even in international waters the Donald Cook has a right to defend itself. Doesn't matter one wit what is going on in Ukraine or what the ass clown politicians are mouthing off.

[whynotme]

The word "ïîðåáðèê'' (curb/kerb) is not used in Ukraine 

Those experts never served in army and have no even the slightest idea what  they were talking about.
First, the Russian Special Forces conduct special and not military operation.
Secondly, they are not running in full growth as cockroaches crowds.
Third, they have the proper equipment (helmets, stun and, and, a means of communication - every fighter), not Saiga's and uniform  bought in local shop for fishing and hunting.
Fourth, they would not go in the forehead on duty armed commandos from the main entrance.

There were local guys having regular army training, which (unlike other commentators), apparently still able to hack coal which oligarchs saled. And sure, that among these guys there are loving sons, brothers and fathers who want a better life for their families.
Who sows the wind - reap the storm.

As for ïîðåáðèê... if you ever study or serve in army in another place u'll use local words for the whole life.
Very weak arguments.

[BillyB]

The best way to determine the identity of the protestors is for the Ukrainian security services to encircle one of these buildings, storm it and and take prisoners. 


Interrogation of prisoners would determine their identity.   

Obama talked to Putin today. Obama says there's overwhelming evidence Russia is behind the unrest. Maybe Obama can come to RWD and tell us what the evidence is and how he got it?

As it stands now, Ukraine does not defend itself.  That fact is not lost on the rest of the world.

I wouldn't look into that too much. Ukraine doesn't want to provoke Russia to cross the border in the event one Russian citizen gets killed. Vice President Biden will be visiting Ukraine in a week. It's best Ukraine take the chance to wait and gather more support from America instead of going at it alone.



Here's something for the conspiracy theorists out there. Obama sent one warship to the Black Sea not to scare Russia. It's purpose is to get sunk by Russian missiles or a secret missile delivered by American troops/pilot. The Tonkin Incident part II. American citizens will get pissed at Russia and give the green light to Obama to start a war bigger than what would be in Ukraine, a war that allows us to enter and take Russian land because we know America is all about gas and oil. I still think our presidents have been going about it all wrong for fuel. Mexico and Canada are easier to take than Russia.

[whynotme]

Very "peacefull" news...
"Right sector" surrounded the Rada and calls for the Turchinovs resignation. The White House acknowledged the CIA chief visited Kiev last weekend for secret consultations. In the Donetsk region a special operation mode was declared. Polite Russian bomber politely flyed over American destroyer in the Black Sea. 12 times in a row. 
Who sows the wind will reap the storm.

[GQBlues]

GQ
It's merely a presence, nothing more. The actual reason why it is there is pretty obvious but, nobody will admit to it. Neither will any of the other dozen or so countries that have a ship there. Russia and a dozen other countries are close to the U.S. in international waters on a regular basis. My point is/was, it's not unusual. What is unusual is for it to be buzzed intentionally. Even in international waters the Donald Cook has a right to defend itself. Doesn't matter one wit what is going on in Ukraine or what the ass clown politicians are mouthing off.

The Cuban missile crisis wasn't too long ago FP. We fired at those ships in international waters, too you know. They had the right to bring whatever it is they wanted to bring to Cuba.

Steady deployment of land, air and naval personnel have one objective in mind this time only. Even during 'peace time' this could be seen as an act of provocation at best, but in a crisis that obviously involve European interest is a whole 'nother bean altogether, IMO.

[missAmeno]

it's the beginning of a Civil War. Stuff often happening after revolutions. There are certainly all kind of people, including Russians, Russian agents, all kind of men wanting a bit of action for different reasons...But the majority are locals or semi-locals acting with support of local population and local police etc. It is NOT Ukraine defending itself, it is Civil War with neighbour v neighbour.

it could get as lovely as in Syria where democratic revolution has now forced over a million people out of their homes seeking refuge in neighbouring countries. Since Russia has an interest in the region and at the very least does not want refugees from across the border the Syrian scenario is not going to happen. But military operations are very possible. The west will of course cry invasion and blame Putin....

Ranetka, take back all your agents, toughs, colonels, lieutenants, subordinates, guns, grenades, explosives, ammunition, rifles and all other s* (pardon for my language) you are forwarding into Ukraine and you will see how fast any chances for any Civil War evaporate. Understand simple thing: you are the ones who trying to start Civil War in Ukraine in order to slice a piece of it. You can keep finding excuses as many as you wish but it doesn't mean your hands get cleaner.