Ukraine-The Future

[Faux Pas]

You mean Russian media distorted the Putin's words? 
You again have misrepresented, now Nazarbaev's words. He repeats this frase last two years, and context of this particular talk kept no reference to Putin.
Mendy, you raised the issue that was discussed and investigated in Russia and Kazakhstan, and only liberal jornalists are trying to make fools of their readers.
It is enough to give the full speeches to see what leaders wanted to say.

Belvis, you my friend are making yourself look very foolish. Perhaps you should pause for at least a few minutes before making these type comments. All propagandist look to make fools of their audience. No one is better at this than the Russia/Putin propaganda machine. You are proof of that.

My wife's first cousin I spoke with recently, she has a very prestigious position at a well known museum in Moscow. She, like you has bought the Putin propaganda hook, line and sinker. She was told last week that half of the museum staff will be eliminated and she probably will be included. She's been there for almost 25 years. No money to pay them with. She like you still can't make the connection of Putin's actions affecting your everyday lives. That is sad really. But, I suppose you are safe from the Facists eh?

[Muzh]

Stop having sex with men

Bitches don't talk to their man like that. 

[Muzh]

You mean Russian media distorted the Putin's words? 
You again have misrepresented, now Nazarbaev's words. He repeats this frase last two years, and context of this particular talk kept no reference to Putin.
Mendy, you raised the issue that was discussed and investigated in Russia and Kazakhstan, and only liberal jornalists are trying to make fools of their readers.
It is enough to give the full speeches to see what leaders wanted to say.

[Belvis]

Belvis, you my friend are making yourself look very foolish. Perhaps you should pause for at least a few minutes before making these type comments. All propagandist look to make fools of their audience. No one is better at this than the Russia/Putin propaganda machine. You are proof of that.

Hah? I guess you have no idea what we were disputing with Mendy about. Do you know what and when Nazarbaev said about Eurasian Customs Union, and what Putin said about Kazakhstan? I hope you will be able to keep discussion on topic
If you want share your thoughts about Russia/Putin propaganda machine, please address Muzh or lordtiberius, I prefer to argue over concrete themes.

[Muzh]

Hah? I guess you have no idea what we were disputing with Mendy about. Do you know what and when Nazarbaev said about Eurasian Customs Union, and what Putin said about Kazakhstan? I hope you will be able to keep discussion on topic
If you want share your thoughts about Russia/Putin propaganda machine, please address Muzh or lordtiberius, I prefer to argue over concrete themes.

LMAO


Do you know what a cop out is?


I'll let Mendy "discuss" your "facts" properly.

[AC]

Hah? I guess you have no idea what we were disputing with Mendy about. Do you know what and when Nazarbaev said about Eurasian Customs Union, and what Putin said about Kazakhstan? I hope you will be able to keep discussion on topic
If you want share your thoughts about Russia/Putin propaganda machine, please address Muzh or lordtiberius, I prefer to argue over concrete themes.

[krimster2]

http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/9a3efede-7fc5-11e4-acf3-00144feabdc0.html#axzz3LSUg6SZc

“The International Monetary Fund has identified a $15bn shortfall in its bailout for war-torn Ukraine and warned western governments the gap will need to be filled within weeks to avoid financial collapse.

The IMF’s calculations lay bare the perilous state of Ukraine’s economy and hint at the financial burden of propping up Kiev as it battles Russian-backed separatist rebels in its eastern regions.

The additional cash needed would come on top of the $17bn IMF rescue announced in April and due to last until 2016. Senior western officials involved in the talks said there is only tepid support for such a sizeable increase at a time Kiev has dragged its feet over the economic and administrative reforms required by the programme.

People briefed on the IMF warning said the fiscal gap has opened up because of a 7 per cent contraction in Ukraine’s gross domestic product and a collapse in exports to Russia, the country’s biggest trading partner, leading to massive capital outflows and a rundown in central bank reserves.

The breakaway regions of the east accounted for nearly 16 per cent of Ukraine’s economic output before the start of hostilities.

Without additional aid, Kiev would have to massively slash its budget or be forced to default on its sovereign debt obligations. Since the bailout programme began in April, Ukraine has received $8.2bn in funding from the IMF and other international creditors. ...“



This money (after being skimmed by oligarch’s) will be used to make payments on previous loans, and this loan will be paid by the next loan, and so on...
Putin doesn’t even need to achieve an immediate  military victory in the East, just maintain the status-quo until the IMF will no longer bail out Ukraine...

[lordtiberius]

Before people get too up in arms about "corruption" in Ukraine understand that it's been that way for about 300 years because their salary simply is not enough (not even remotely enough) to live on.  So yes many will get small bribes to get something done faster.  Most here would do the same -- had they been born and raised there and had no other way to support their families. 

The real problem is that some are probably much better than others at abusing their authority -- so yes Ukraine will eventually have a much better future provided they do move away from the bribe system.  It simply won't happen overnight.

Paying a bureaucrat or a politician a living wage doesn't make him Mother Theresa.

[AC]

It's always such a pleasure to read your rosy reports.     (directed at krimster)

[Gator]

Putin doesn’t even need to achieve an immediate  military victory in the East, just maintain the status-quo until the IMF will no longer bail out Ukraine...

Russia is suffering too.  Does Russia have any history of winning a war of attrition?  I encounter this strategy from my RW wife.   

[Boethius]

The breakaway regions of the east accounted for nearly 16 per cent of Ukraine’s economic output before the start of hostilities.

But much of that was in dying, inefficient industries.  Furthermore, that region took 25% of government revenue, so it was a net drain on the country.

[Muzh]

But much of that was in dying, inefficient industries.  Furthermore, that region took 25% of government revenue, so it was a net drain on the country.

Not so according to Satan's Bible the Wall Street Journal.


Crippling of Industry in Eastern Ukraine Reverberates Across Economy
http://www.wsj.com/articles/crippling-of-industry-in-eastern-ukraine-reverberates-across-economy-1418140597?mod=WSJ_hpp_MIDDLENexttoWhatsNewsThird

[Boethius]

Realistically, moving to the EU, Ukraine will have to modernize its industries and economy.


There were a few industries in Donbas which were profitable and modern (arms, and there was an Italian owned tile factory that supplied tile not only to Ukraine, but across the EU), but most of its factories are fifty years old, producing stuff that no one needs.  Coal is a dying industry as well.

[AC]

Link to a very nice site about Ukraine:


http://www.facebook.com/ExploringUkraine

[lordtiberius]

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2014/12/12/ceasefire-holds-one-day-ukraine/20299739/

[AkMike]

Ukraine Prognostications

This is  a long well thought out article with food for thought.


Predictions and Program for Ukraine for the Next 30 Months
 Oct 29th, 2014 | By pani | Category: Economics, Editor's Choice, Human Rights, In Depth, Infowars, International Relations, National Security, Politics, Russia, Ukraine, Wars 
?Maidan? website is full of texts of ?I told you so? genre. We said that Russia wanted to annex Crimea, one of members of MMIC published a book about it in 2009. We wrote that Ukrainian Army was being intentionally destroyed on demand of Moscow. We wrote in December 2005 that Ukraine should stop using Russian gas and quickly find  alternative energy sources. We warned that Ukrainian Parliament elected in 2006 and 2012 would be dissolved before its legal term was over. We had predicted in 2004, that Yanukovych rule would be bloody. However, nobody listened to us.

Everything changed now. VIPs listen to us and we are sometimes heard. Therefore, our NGO will be posting predictions regularly and we will be publicly monitoring whether they come true. Here are my prognosis and programs for Ukraine.
Continued at the link.


http://world.maidanua.org/2014/predictions-and-program-for-ukraine-for-the-next-30-months

[Muzh]

Ukraine Prognostications

This is  a long well thought out article with food for thought.


Predictions and Program for Ukraine for the Next 30 Months
 Oct 29th, 2014 | By pani | Category: Economics, Editor's Choice, Human Rights, In Depth, Infowars, International Relations, National Security, Politics, Russia, Ukraine, Wars 
?Maidan? website is full of texts of ?I told you so? genre. We said that Russia wanted to annex Crimea, one of members of MMIC published a book about it in 2009. We wrote that Ukrainian Army was being intentionally destroyed on demand of Moscow. We wrote in December 2005 that Ukraine should stop using Russian gas and quickly find  alternative energy sources. We warned that Ukrainian Parliament elected in 2006 and 2012 would be dissolved before its legal term was over. We had predicted in 2004, that Yanukovych rule would be bloody. However, nobody listened to us.

Everything changed now. VIPs listen to us and we are sometimes heard. Therefore, our NGO will be posting predictions regularly and we will be publicly monitoring whether they come true. Here are my prognosis and programs for Ukraine.
Continued at the link.


http://world.maidanua.org/2014/predictions-and-program-for-ukraine-for-the-next-30-months

I was discussing this with Natalka on FB before she posted it. Then she dyed her hair bright orange. I told her she was giving the terrorist an ample target. She laughed and said there are no terrorist in Kharkiv.

[AkMike]

It's also good in Kyiv as well as here in Cherkassy. I've noticed a better mood as well as no military road blocks set up at some of the out lying areas that were here last spring. It's pretty much normal from what I see so far.

[jone]

The future of Ukraine?  Hmmm.  The simple answer is that with a belligerent Russian, Ukraine will be the front line in a new cold war.  Whereas it was never intended to subsidize Ukraine, from the West, the West will eventually determine that propping up Ukraine is a lot cheaper than dealing with other manifestations of Russian advances.  In other words, keep Russia throwing its resources into trying to destabilize while the West builds it up.   

A Marshall plan for Ukraine is much cheaper than any other solution that might be advanced.  Moreover, a strong and prosperous country will result.  Think of West Germany (and West Berlin) in the 60s.  The best way, then, to combat Soviet aggression was to make West Germany strong.

[AkMike]

I was in Berlin just after the wall came down. It was a huge difference between the living vibrant west and the cold drab east. Like night and day difference!

 I can easily imagine UA becoming a west Berlin.

[Boethius]

An article on Ukraine's internal refugees -


http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/dec/22/ukraine-refugees-home-internally-displaced-people-war-east-russia

[Anotherkiwi]

An article on Ukraine's internal refugees -


http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/dec/22/ukraine-refugees-home-internally-displaced-people-war-east-russia

Very interesting - it should be required reading for all the posters here, no matter which side of the fence they reside, to see how the ordinary residents of a once (sort of) stable country have been affected by matters beyond their control.

[Boethius]

An article on conditions in one terrorist controlled town.  Note that the town is controlled by Russian mercenaries, who, we have been told here, are not fighting in Ukraine ("The rebel faction that controls the town, a detachment of the Russia-based Don Cossack Host").


http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/12/24/christmas-under-fire-conditions-increasingly-dire-for-citizens-of-rebel-held-ukrainian-town/

[AC]

An article on conditions in one terrorist controlled town.  Note that the town is controlled by Russian mercenaries, who, we have been told here, are not fighting in Ukraine ("The rebel faction that controls the town, a detachment of the Russia-based Don Cossack Host").


http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/12/24/christmas-under-fire-conditions-increasingly-dire-for-citizens-of-rebel-held-ukrainian-town/

If I was an elderly person stuck in that region I think I would just slash my wrists.  Better than starving to death.

[JayH]

Amongst all the negative news of war in the east-- Ukraine is trying to carve a way to an independent future. despite Russia's best efforts to sabotage Ukraine progress is being made.Problems are being solved as they arise-how that must be sticking in Putin's throat!


Bloomberg: US steps up Ukrainian loan aid as civilians killed in east

he U.S. pledged as much as $2 billion in loan guarantees to Ukraine as the former Soviet republic tries to avoid default amid an insurgency in its easternmost regions. The U.S. plans to give a $1 billion loan guarantee in the first half, as long as its government keeps up with demands made by the International Monetary Fund, and may provide another $1 billion guarantee in late 2015, the Treasury Department said today

http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine-abroad/bloomberg-us-steps-up-ukrainian-loan-aid-as-civilians-killed-in-east-377325.html

Associated Press: US, EU promise more aid for Ukraine if reforms continue
BRUSSELS - The United States on Jan. 13 reinforced Western assistance for war-torn Ukraine by promising up to $2 billion in loan guarantees if that effort is matched by economic and political reforms in Kyiv.
http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine-abroad/associated-press-us-eu-promise-more-aid-for-ukraine-if-reforms-continue-377338.html