Ukraine-The Future

[AC]

Not hard enough.

Really?  That's not what I recall.  In fact I recall Putin offering Ukraine a package valued at something like 10 to 15 Billion, which Yanukovych agreed to, but the Ukrainian people did not.

See Russia tried very hard to bribe Ukraine.  The EU offer at the time IIRC was less than 1 Billion.

Why would Ukrainians not want such a generous deal from Russia, in favor of the paltry deal from the EU?

It's called self-determination, another word for freedom.  In this case freedom from the bully to the East.

You should stop grasping at straws and admit Russia has failed, because they failed to really have a better offer.  Contrary to your preferred narrative, it was never about money.  I was about who they wanted to move closer to.


excerpt
"But then there are the financial incentives. In the end, the Russian president seems to have promised his Ukrainian counterpart several billion euros in the form of subsidies, debt forgiveness and duty-free imports. The EU, for its part, had offered Ukraine loans worth €610 million ($827 million), which it had increased at the last moment, along with the vague prospect of a €1 billion loan from the International Monetary Fund (IMF). Yanukovych chose Putin's billions instead."


http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/how-the-eu-lost-to-russia-in-negotiations-over-ukraine-trade-deal-a-935476.html

[Boethius]

This has a good synopsis on various scenarios for further war -


http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/ukraines-donbas-is-not-enough-for-putin-383310.html

[sleepycat]

And for $5 more they'd get a happy ending.

$5 buys a lot of roubles these days... 

[lordtiberius]

Another flaccid defense of Novorossiya annihilated by facts and logic.

   Boethius

[Belvis]

As for the photos that have been making the rounds on Russian social media, it is truly odd that they aren't being promoted by the supposed fascists in Ukraine. I find it interesting that Russians can stage those kinds of things so quickly. Too quickly, and that is scary.

It's not odd that photos were not being promoted by the fascists in Ukraine. Because it seems you don't monitor closely the events there I will elaborate.  These photos are the discrediting evidence, and show up in private vk and facebook pages created by Azov soldiers. Sometimes when photos start circulation on Russian social media these guys had closed their pages. Second photo is right the case, I barely  had time to look at it at the Azov fighter page and on the next day the page has disappeared.

While you turn your sight blind at what does not fit your frame picture, Ukrainian officials ackowledge that Nazi is in fact a part of the Ukrainian armed forces.
See the 'staged' video where Ukraine’s ambassador to Germany inform you about realities:

[Belvis]

One more 'staged' video about Azov, specially for Jone. Let him disclose how German TV stages pro-Russian video:

[mendeleyev]

Belvis, I can see that Peskov has you quite busy these days.

So, here is a question for you: With all the neo-Nazi radical youth in Russia, does Putin have them under control?

How do you explain their radical views, especially in light of Russia's history?

Also, I would suggest that you find a dictionary, and look up the definition of Nazi, and fascist.

[Steamer]

You should stop grasping at straws and admit Russia has failed, because they failed to really have a better offer.

That's why Russia should have bombed first and THEN bribed.

[Boethius]

That's why Russia should have bombed first and THEN bribed.

You shouldn't even joke like that, Steamer.  Tens of thousands of Ukrainians, and more than 1,000 Russians have died, thanks to Kremlin policies.  It is a tragedy.

[Steamer]

You shouldn't even joke like that, Steamer.  Tens of thousands of Ukrainians, and more than 1,000 Russians have died, thanks to Kremlin policies.  It is a tragedy.

I'm just giving it the same way I get it.

[Boethius]

I disagree.

[AC]

That's why NATO should have bombed Moscow first and THEN bribed.

This is how you're giving it.  How do you like that idea? 

[lordtiberius]

Boethius, is the austerity imposed by the IMF good for Ukraine?

[Boethius]

Good for the country if they can weed out corruption, but horrible for the population.  It is far worse than in Greece.

[lordtiberius]

Doesn't IMF austerity mean more taxes and government spending cuts?

[Boethius]

Yes.  In Ukraine, there should also be an attempt to renegotiate debt, assuming the war ends, and they can get a handle on corruption.  Without the latter, nothing will change.

[Photo Guy]

Excellent post:

Really?  That's not what I recall.  In fact I recall Putin offering Ukraine a package valued at something like 10 to 15 Billion, which Yanukovych agreed to, but the Ukrainian people did not.

See Russia tried very hard to bribe Ukraine.  The EU offer at the time IIRC was less than 1 Billion.

Why would Ukrainians not want such a generous deal from Russia, in favor of the paltry deal from the EU?

It's called self-determination, another word for freedom.  In this case freedom from the bully to the East.

You should stop grasping at straws and admit Russia has failed, because they failed to really have a better offer.  Contrary to your preferred narrative, it was never about money.  I was about who they wanted to move closer to.


excerpt
"But then there are the financial incentives. In the end, the Russian president seems to have promised his Ukrainian counterpart several billion euros in the form of subsidies, debt forgiveness and duty-free imports. The EU, for its part, had offered Ukraine loans worth €610 million ($827 million), which it had increased at the last moment, along with the vague prospect of a €1 billion loan from the International Monetary Fund (IMF). Yanukovych chose Putin's billions instead."


http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/how-the-eu-lost-to-russia-in-negotiations-over-ukraine-trade-deal-a-935476.html

[lordtiberius]

Yes.  In Ukraine, there should also be an attempt to renegotiate debt, assuming the war ends, and they can get a handle on corruption.  Without the latter, nothing will change.

We have corruption in the United States.  Corruption can only be overcome with character, doesn't the IMF know that?  I cannot help that taxing working people only helps the Davis elite.  I also cannot help bit think that the spending cuts will not be that large or drastic to make a difference.  We see in Greece, Spain and Italy that austerity doesn't lead to prosperity but it does insure German bankers who were dumb enough to make such poor investments.  What say you?

[AkMike]

How would your country feel if it lost the territories Ukraine lost due to Russian invasion?

[lordtiberius]

Did you know there was corruption before the invasion and there still corruption?

[Boethius]

Yes, there was a lot of corruption even before Yanukovych was elected.  Yushchenko didn't obtain his collection of priceless artifacts looted from Ukrainian museums legally, nor did Tymoshenko become a billionaire selling pornographic videos to minors in Dnepropetrovsk.


As for the IMF, I believe they want Ukraine to raise prices and reduce some pensions.  The pensions, depending on who takes the hit, is problematic.  Raising prices for subsidized industries should have occurred long ago.  A lot of these structural reforms did not occur because a relatively placid population, even if living barely above subsistence level, allows politicians to continue to steal unabated and unmolested.

[lordtiberius]

These pensions amount to $ 40 a month.  And the IMF wants to Ukraine to cut it even further?  And this will lead to prosperity how?

[AC]

Excellent post:

Thank you.  I think it's mind boggling that the pro-Russian bunch keeps going on and on with unsubstantiated allegations of US interference, when the interference by Russia has been enormous and the evidence of it is well documented.

[Anotherkiwi]

...nor did Tymoshenko become a billionaire selling pornographic videos to minors in Dnepropetrovsk.

Minors or miners?

[Boethius]

Minors.