More Bad News for Russia

[AkMike]

Although tragic, it is not worth the life or blood of one Ukrainian soldier. 

And yet the soldiers doing the fighting seem to think it's worth the effort.

[JayH]

Polls by independent Western sources find the overwhelming majority of residents want to be part of Russia.  It is so overwhelming, it is evident the locals would so vote in a fully free, independent referendum.  Crimea is not going to be part of Ukraine.  That is reality.  Ukrainians must adjust to that fact, ask for reparations for lost property, and ensure the West keeps punitive sanctions in place.

\

I do not accept  the accuracy of those polls.Even the polls prior to Maidan did not show a majority in favour of Russia.
Regardless-- LT has the key point-- the Crimea is part of Ukraine and for many reasons must be again.I reject this often stated idea that the population ever wanted to be part of Russia-- a better life-yes-everyone wanted that-- and Russia was not about to let Kiev improve Ukrainians lives.
The fact is that short term political opportunism at a moment of great confusion in Kiev was capitalised on  in the interests of the few and the detriment of the majority.
The fact is that the Kremlin did not want Ukrainians get a sniff of the results of Maidan penetrating the general masses thinking-lest it be contagious!!
Almost everyday we are reading more confessions of Russian complicity and views of why Ukraine is "owned" by Russia and the population has no right to be thinking Ukraine is an independent nation-the invasion of the Crimea was just a visible step in the process of Russia attempting to "control" Ukraine.
No--they should not reap any "rewards" for their invasion.
From the perspective of Ukrainian pride and nationalism-- Ukraine will never give up until it's borders are totally restored.The attempts to force settlements on Ukraine conceding control over it's own territory are doomed to failure-one way or another.

[lordtiberius]

Ukraine can also starve out Crimea.  It has chosen not to, but it can and the day is coming when it should and will.  Death to the traitors.

[Young Fred]

Although old polls may not reflect current thinking, some readers might be interested in these articles.

http://www.ibtimes.com/gallup-poll-shows-crimeans-had-very-different-ideas-about-russia-last-year-1561821

http://khpg.org/en/index.php?id=1425949061

[AkMike]

US Army invites: Ukrainian citizenship can provide 10 weeks
 
 Ukrainians in the United States that are willing to join the army, have a chance to get American citizenship just 10 weeks. This program provides an opportunity MAVNI (Military Accessions Vital to the National Interest), provides that "military set needed for national security."

Reported VIDIA with reference to the information published on this site USArmy.

MAVNI - a program of recruitment, which gives non-citizens the right to join the US Army in exchange for accelerated citizenship. "Most of the participants have become US citizens at the end desyatytyzhnevoho course of basic combat training," - said in a statement.

Currently the army is looking for licensed health professionals and persons who own more than one language, including Ukrainian.

Recall Pentagon added to the list of priority languages ​​Ukrainian.
http://vidia.org/2015/37713

[JayH]

Although old polls may not reflect current thinking, some readers might be interested in these articles.

http://www.ibtimes.com/gallup-poll-shows-crimeans-had-very-different-ideas-about-russia-last-year-1561821

http://khpg.org/en/index.php?id=1425949061

Interesting stat of 61% below -that accords with numerous surveys& polls pre -Maidan. Being unhappy with Kiev never equalled leaving Ukraine== that is a very important point that is to often misrepresented. In the same boat is the being unhappy part-it was with old regimes and the Russian interference in Crimea  never allowed seeing what a new direction Kiev wished to take.
As an aside-- all democratic free countries seem to have the nut cases promoting secession-- eg In Australia some of the mega beneficiaries of the mineral boom became billionaires and now object to the effective 10% tax rate that they pay- and have often been promoters of secession from the commonwealth-- ridiculous ideas that have little attraction . I am sure other countries have similar cases-- but because a few can see a benefit( to them) in any given situation it does not make it right or justifiable for the country as a whole.Even less so when it is promoted by a foreign intruder using military force.
Quoting from the 2nd link--
"IF the survey that appeared on the pro-Russian Krymskaya Pravda website was real, then were a referendum to now be held on the status of Crimea,  61% of the respondents would vote for greater autonomy within Ukraine, and only 19% would vote to join Russia.  It is a big ‘if’, with Krymskaya Pravda now claiming that the survey was the “latest provocation by enemies of Crimea”.

Since Krymskaya Pravda was notorious for its pro-Russian position and hate speech against Crimean Tatars long before Russia’s invasion, it is possible that they are telling the truth, however novel this may be for the particular publication.  On the other hand, there are important discrepancies in their version.  They claim that false results were posted immediately prior to the website being subjected to a DDoS attack (when the server is brought down through multiple requests), meaning that it could not be accessed.  In fact the answers above, and results of two previous, equally interesting, questions, had already been seen early and widely reposted on social networks from Sunday evening onwards.  The figures above are reported by Radio Svoboda’s Crimean Service as being from 8.00 on March 9, after  4, 510 people had responded.  At 12.40, Radio Svoboda reports, the site went down.  "

[Boethius]

The Lord hears the cry of the poor, but Boethius doesn't?

Do you want to point out where in the New Testament God commands us to kill His children to alleviate the suffering of the poor?

[Boethius]

And yet the soldiers doing the fighting seem to think it's worth the effort.

They are not fighting for Crimea.

[lordtiberius]

Do you want to point out where in the New Testament God commands us to kill His children to alleviate the suffering of the poor?

What church do you go to?  Read the book of Revelation.  Ask the Lord what happened to His Children that crucified His Son to a piece of wood.

You made your opinion known Boethius.  The Tatars are not worth defending.  There is nothing else to discuss.

[Boethius]

\

I do not accept  the accuracy of those polls.Even the polls prior to Maidan did not show a majority in favour of Russia.
Regardless-- LT has the key point-- the Crimea is part of Ukraine and for many reasons must be again.I reject this often stated idea that the population ever wanted to be part of Russia-- a better life-yes-everyone wanted that-- and Russia was not about to let Kiev improve Ukrainians lives.
The fact is that short term political opportunism at a moment of great confusion in Kiev was capitalised on  in the interests of the few and the detriment of the majority.
The fact is that the Kremlin did not want Ukrainians get a sniff of the results of Maidan penetrating the general masses thinking-lest it be contagious!!
Almost everyday we are reading more confessions of Russian complicity and views of why Ukraine is "owned" by Russia and the population has no right to be thinking Ukraine is an independent nation-the invasion of the Crimea was just a visible step in the process of Russia attempting to "control" Ukraine.
No--they should not reap any "rewards" for their invasion.
From the perspective of Ukrainian pride and nationalism-- Ukraine will never give up until it's borders are totally restored.The attempts to force settlements on Ukraine conceding control over it's own territory are doomed to failure-one way or another.

The Razumkov Centre, the premier pollsters in Ukraine (an independent Ukrainian think tank, partly established with that $5 billion in aid courtesy of the US government), has polled Crimeans every year for over a decade.  From the 2008 poll:

Secession of Crimea from Ukraine and joining Russia are supported by the overwhelming majority (75.9%) of Russians and a majority (55.2%) of Ukrainians. Among Crimean Tatars, such prospect is supported by only 13.8%, against – 68.5%.

The percentage declined in later years, dropping to 35% or so during Yanukovych's presidency.  However, before the Russian invasion, it increased to a majority of Crimeans, other than among the Tatar population.


Crimea has never been culturally or ethnically a Ukrainian region.  I also don't think Russia will just give it up, so, sanctions, long term sanctions, are required.

[Boethius]

What church do you go to?  Read the book of Revelation.  Ask the Lord what happened to His Children that crucified His Son to a piece of wood.

You made your opinion known Boethius.  The Tatars are not worth defending.  There is nothing else to discuss.

Your opinion.  Nothing more.

[SANDRO43]

Read the book of Revelation.

A.k.a. "The Apocalypse:

"from the first word of the book in Koine Greek: Aποκάλυψις. Early Church tradition dates the book to end of the emperor Domitian (reigned 81-96 CE)...Tradition links him to John the Apostle, but it is unlikely that the apostle could have lived into the most likely time for the book's composition, the reign of Domitian, and the author never states that he knew Jesus.

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Revelation)

A rather questionable doctrinal source to appeal to in order to justify massacres - BTW not much unlike the ISIS - but then fanatics, of whatever creed, are always unsurprisingly similar in their contentions .

[lordtiberius]

Alex,

LT and myself had a fairly in depth discussion on Russian Submarine Fleet capabilities a number of months ago. Here's an excerpt...

Although the Russians are scrambling to build/refurbish I doubt much has changed since I posted this.

Brass

For what its worth, 30 year old nuke packing submarines are still very dangerous.  Ask the Swedes.  And the North Pole is a region ideal for submarine warfare.  It is not a region bustling with maritime traffic but a great place to launch nukes.

Although tragic, it is not worth the life or blood of one Ukrainian soldier.  Let the Crimean Russians who overwhelmingly wanted unification with Russia deal with the consequences.

You wrote that.  No one else did.  You said they aren't worth defending.  LIVE WITH IT.

[Boethius]

There are ways to defend people without bloodshed.  Deal with that, warmonger.

[lordtiberius]

There are ways to defend people without bloodshed.  Deal with that, warmonger.

The Crimean Tatars don't like in Canada or Houston.  They live in Crimea.  They don't have the luxury to sound like John Lennon and talk about peace all day with Yoko Ono bedside in front of the camera.  They live in Crimea which is attached to Ukraine.  Did you know that?

Like I said, it is easy to dismiss the suffering of others when it isn't you.  We knew defeatism is weak.  Who knew it could be so ugly?

[Boethius]

So tell me how sending thousands of Ukrainians to their deaths in Crimea will change one thing for any of those Tatars.

[lordtiberius]

Any invasion of Crimea would have to wait until the Donbass is taken. But their lives matter and there are a number of strategies Ukraine could employ right now to affect the return of the Crimea to Ukraine including arming the Tatars surreptitiously.  Partisan warfare and blockade.  But this assumes their lives aand property are worth saving.  Which I believe they are.  You don't

[Boethius]

Don't skirt around the question.  Tell me how thousands of dead Ukrainians will help alleviate the poverty and suffering of those Tatars.


Don't assume you know what is in my head.  You don't.  I just don't happen to believe thousands of dead Ukrainians is the way to achieve this.  But if you feel so strongly about it, you can volunteer to go fight.  Live your convictions. 

[lordtiberius]

Thousands of dead Ukrainians?  You are not serious.  This is not your field of expertise.  And I never said that thousands have to die. 

[fathertime]

Like I said, it is easy to dismiss the suffering of others when it isn't you.   

It is also easy to demand that OTHER people go fight the fight and potentially/likely die...and for what?...a group of people, many of which don't want their 'help', and could potentially work actively against it. 

Fathertime!   

[Boethius]

Thousands of dead Ukrainians?  You are not serious.  This is not your field of expertise.  And I never said that thousands have to die.

How many have died so far?

[fathertime]

What church do you go to?  Read the book of Revelation.  Ask the Lord what happened to His Children that crucified His Son to a piece of wood.

You made your opinion known Boethius.  The Tatars are not worth defending.  There is nothing else to discuss.

And what if people don't believe in the 'book of revelation'?....most of the world does not....most of the world may think  it is religious silliness....that goes for all the religions people go to war based on. 

Fathertime!   

[lordtiberius]

It is also easy to demand that OTHER people go fight the fight and potentially/likely die...and for what?...a group of people, many of which don't want their 'help', and could potentially work actively against it. 

Fathertime!   

It's easy to sell out the territorial integrity of nations when it doesn't affect you.  I am grateful the Ukrainian military is defending my family in Ukraine.  If that gratitude makes me a warmonger in your eyes.  I can have no greater badge of honor.

[lordtiberius]

How many have died so far?

You are dodging the issues I brought up in order to topic change.  All of Ukraine is worth defending or none of it is.  And no appeasement will stop the Kremlin mafia and you know this.

[fathertime]

It's easy to sell out the territorial integrity of nations when it doesn't affect you.  I am grateful the Ukrainian military is defending my family in Ukraine.  If that gratitude makes me a warmonger in your eyes.  I can have no greater badge of honor.

This is not much of a 'badge of honor' actually...but if that is all you can do...then I guess I should be happy for you. 

It isn't the Ukraine military that makes you a war monger...it is your overall warped mentality that does...if you had your way we would likely be actively involved in 6 wars by now...although all our children would probably be killed in these wars by now anyway...but of course what do you care...you have no children.

Fathertime!