your ace in the hole

[PeeWee]

Peewee,

I think it's called "Money Management", or if you like; living within your means.  Having made the trip across the pond over 20 times, with roughly half of those trip paid for by me, I know what that kind of travel can do to the old bank account.

Unless a man is enjoying life on a greater than 6 figure income, flying 1st class and staying in the best hotels may not be an option if he is going to make any trips at all.  In any case, I still would not recommend a man stay in hotels to begin with.  No one will gather even a glimmer of the everyday culture, or an understanding of the lifestyle RWs see everyday unless he lives as a Russian does.  If you live in a 5 star hotel and eat in high priced restaurants every day you will miss out on the best of what Russia offers, the earthiness and genuine goodness of the Russian people.  You can call it cheap, I call it wonderful to absorb the culture and class of a society on a first hand basis.  Also, by displaying that kind of wealthy lifestyle, you only make a target of yourself for the crooks, thieves, and con artists who only wish to seperate you from your bankroll.

]
 This makes sense to me. I have had my share of backpacking around Europe and living in youth hostels. For me, not for anyone else, but when I travel I tend to go 1st class no matter where I go. I would not have a tendency to dope it down, so to speak, just because I was traveling in Russia. Someone has to stay in the nice hotel otherwise they would have to close their doors. I am simply doing my part!

The statement was that RW do not like cheap. My question to that was do these guys who spend hours ferreting out cheap airfares and hotels carry that mentality with them to E E and do they continue that behavior in the company of the very woman who is going to re repulsed by the "cheap" approach to life?

Peewee 

[Jumper]

peewee-
a little of both.

Most RW would respect a man for being intelligent with his money!!
They also respect a man who is generous, and not the dreaded term
*greedy*
you see that *greedy* or *generous man* term in many profiles ?

That doesnt mean overwhelming her with gifts..
it means being of a generous and giving nature,
 there is a huge difference?

like anything in life *moderation* of both the extreems is probably the most normal.

if a guy came off as overly concerned about normal expendentures,
 she is going to wonder about him! and quite correctly?
 
if he is a spend thrift with no value to his money..
unless he is a money tree , or she isnt interested in him long term.. that would be equal cause for concern?

In general most RW seem quite good with money, and as leslie stated if you lead with your wallet , what would you expect of the outcome?


as far as hotels, knock yourself out LOL
but in regards to most FSU ones, no matter what "star " hotel,
you could almost certainly have a much MUCH nicer flat ,
for not only less expence , but have the benefits of your own place..
its hardly debatable as there are just so many reasons a flat is the better option most of the time.
There is no way if looking to meet FSU women on a trip , that i would stay in even the finest hotel in the FSU , if i had the option of a flat..

one thing is the big stigma of your girl visiting you in the hotel room..
plus the hassle for her and you from  the *cough* hotel security (hoping to provide you with services/girls of thier own)

I am sure there are exceptions to this, but not often,, if you ask your *romantic interest(s) * which option she(they) would perefer you stayed at,, i'm sure the answers would make it clear..?
*shrugs*

[PeeWee]

peewee-
a little of both.

Most RW would respect a man for being intelligent with his money!!
They also respect a man who is generous, and not the dreaded term
*greedy*
you see that *greedy* or *generous man* term in many profiles ?

That doesnt mean overwhelming her with gifts..
it means being of a generous and giving nature,
 there is a huge difference?

like anything in life *moderation* of both the extreems is probably the most normal.

if a guy came off as overly concerned about normal expendentures,
 she is going to wonder about him! and quite correctly?
 
if he is a spend thrift with no value to his money..
unless he is a money tree , or she isnt interested in him long term.. that would be equal cause for concern?

In general most RW seem quite good with money, and as leslie stated if you lead with your wallet , what would you expect of the outcome?


as far as hotels, knock yourself out LOL
but in regards to most FSU ones, no matter what "star " hotel,
you could almost certainly have a much MUCH nicer flat ,
for not only less expence , but have the benefits of your own place..
its hardly debatable as there are just so many reasons a flat is the better option most of the time.
There is no way if looking to meet FSU women on a trip , that i would stay in even the finest hotel in the FSU , if i had the option of a flat..

one thing is the big stigma of your girl visiting you in the hotel room..
plus the hassle for her and you from  the *cough* hotel security (hoping to provide you with services/girls of thier own)

I am sure there are exceptions to this, but not often,, if you ask your *romantic interest(s) * which option she(they) would perefer you stayed at,, i'm sure the answers would make it clear..?
*shrugs*

'
So, AJ, I have heard many guys atest to the value of a tour as opposed to the self inflicted solo adventure. Do those tour boys reside in flats or hotels? And why?

Question two. You recall Steve and his recent experience with the Ukraine lady and his non meeting in Paris. Had he been successful and had she actually shown up in Paris are we still looking for a Parisian Lovenest (flat) or a 5 star hotel?

Peewee

[KenC]

I dunno guys. I stayed in a dump of a flat and got a true taste of living like a poor Russian and I stayed in a brand new Marriott off of Red Square. The hotel was much better. My (now) wife understood that the hotel was a special treat for both of us and it didn't corrupt her thinking in the least.

There is a certain line a guy has to walk when trying to woo a woman. To each his own, I guess. I am not one to pinch pennies during that time period.
KenC

[Jumper]

I've no personal knowledge of tours-
but can't imagine a tour being anything but a tour..

and yes likely residing in hotel rooms,,
as it is the agency providing a tour for many men ,
and its more conveinient for any agency to supply a set number of hotel rooms verses the logitics of supllying each client with his own flat?
That doesnt mean its the best scenerio for the man involved??

Hey if thats something a guy wants to do.. more power to him..
even if i was on a tour i would want a flat instead of the hotel !

at any rate i wouldnt think a tour was the way to look for a *prospective wife*.. but it works for some?
i would certainly rather go solo, wether meeting one or several!
I dont need wingman! LOL

as far as meeting a woman in another city..
plenty of VERY sound ¦nbsp;reasons to meet her in her home city!

if a guy chooses to ignore those, thats cool whatever--

and a hotel room is likely fine in fair paris' ! 

the social stigma i mentioned ,
of a woman ,meeting a man (or foreigner) in a motel room (of her home city no less) -
 is in the FSU.
the security trying to hassle her because she isnt one of the girls they want to provide service to you -
 is in the FSU.
 (youve made a few trips and never noticed this? or went to her flat instead of her coming to your hotel perhaps? )

The level of relative comfort for the "star rating "
and the hotels are different-
 in the FSU.
(yes moscow or st pete may be exceptions)
My advice on that topic was limited to meeting women in the FSU?

Meeting a RW in LA, Cypruis , or Athens for example , and wether you stayed in a hotel or apartment for your week visit,
sure isnt what i was talking about
 

and yes , in those cases ,like most people, i would stay in a hotel..


its no real big deal either way..
but if you want to get to know the person,
living together for a week in a typical flat, cooking/cleaning together,
 tripping over each other..grocery shopping, coming and going as you please,,
seems a little bit better , or more like normal life,
than the hotel alternative ..
on top of that generally a flat is nicer than an FSU hotel room.
(at least certainly in provincial cities)

that doesnt mean it would cost less? the flat may be the same or slightly more..
The option of daily or weekly rental at basically a hotel room rate -
is there in the FSU, and not so in many cities of the world,
or it would be used more often in general travel?

do what feels most comfortable though.

[PeeWee]

There was a fellow, Doug I think his name is, who owned three of four flats located in Moscow. He did a nice virtural tour of them that could be down loaded. They all looked nice and as I recall the monthly rate was reasonable.

AJ, you make some fine points with regard to the flat. For some reason that does not appeal to me. I look at it this way. I am not going to Russia to learn how to be a Russian so why live like one? She, on the other hand, is a Russian who hopefully coming to my country to live as an American, not a Russian. So who is adapting to whose way of life? Certainly not me to hers so why would I need to know much about what it is like to live as she does? I would think that hopefully we were both moving our lives away from that and to something that might be better for both of us.

Man, I did my time camping in the dirt and the heat and humidity when I  served my six years for God and country why do I want to prolong my discomfort by going to another foreign country and not taking advantage of a hotel that has a hot shower, a TV, someone cooking meals for me? I like the idea of giving her a treat as well by having her live in a nice hotel. I am not saying my way is the right way, guys, I'm saying that I have a different take on it, that's all.

Peewee 

[Jumper]

peewee,
your perception of roughing it in a flat verses staying in a nice hotel room. lends me to think you've only visited Kiev, st pete ,  or Moscow?

the flats i have rented all were very nice, not dumps at all,
had nice kitchens, TV, Radio/CD /DVD players etc.. nice beds a couple of rooms - certainly hot water (own hot water heater)
microwav/stove/refrige and AC..
 and  and for the relativly same daily price of a hotel
 
( i almost bet KenCs dump of a flat was in tver,, and then he stayed in a top notch moscow hotel? not a tver hotel, not the same comparison lol)

the hotels I've  stayed at , even though they were decent,
had very small hard beds, hardly any room to walk around two people,
no refrgerator or microwave -  not many conviences and these were the best hotels available in those cities.
i'm sure the larger cities and larger hotels are more in line with
western standards.
so my experience being inj  provincial cities has been that you were roughing it a bit, LOL even in the better hotels,
were a flat provided a much nicer atmosphere..


peewee said

She, on the other hand, is a Russian who hopefully coming to my country to live as an American, not a Russian. So who is adapting to whose way of life? Certainly not me to hers so why would I need to know much about what it is like to live as she does?

first off, what i was saying is living together in a flat , is more like normal life living together anywhere? wether in the FSU or america.
it wasnt nessacarily about learning to live like her,or an average  Russian,
 it was about learning to see if you can live together?
 tripping over each other daily , doing normal daily things like cooking , laundry, grocery shopping, is  maybe a better way to find out if you can stand each other..?

on the thoughts of her relocating here, and needing to learn about america, and therfor you not needing to learn about Russian way of life-
Well if a 5 star hotel in moscow is the way she will live when she arrives ,in the USA, i guess your point is valid one ?
but mostly like Kens case, she will know its just a vacation for both of you..
and thats fine? I took plenty of vacations with my wife as well (pre marriage)
 Regardless she isnt learning a dang thing about DAILY living in the US in some Russian hotel?

The other side is  you are trying to learn about a person.? right?
Her mindset and way of thinking is defined by her EVERYDAY experiences
and the culture she has lived in ,
up until peewee popped in for a visit?

why would you need to understand her? her culture? her lifestyle ? and where shes coming from?

::::::::::sorry sarcasm mode on ::::
wow man, you kind of left me blinking  with that one..LOL
i have no idea why you would want to know these things..
in a future spouse.. ?
heck shes moving here anyway!
and will instantly love everything in America,  America ways and culture and will quickly adapt and be eternally greatful for the new wonderful life..
:::::::::::::::::::::::::sarcasm mode off::::::::::::::::

seriously peewee,

you will likely be wondering *what on earth is she thinking?* and
*why is she thinking that? * , plenty of times in your new life together!!
Thats if you have even a slight clue of her life and culture!
( i've lived in Europe long term)

if you have no firsthand knowledge  of that culture and lifestyle ,
 and dont even seem to care to find out anything ,,

May the force be with you!
 
LOL!

You are asking a woman from a completely different background to relocate around the world to a completely FORIEGN enviroment.
Away from all family and friends, away from everything that seems normal, and comfortable...
One with a differnt language than her first language, regardless of her english level-
There are exceptions, but most likely it will be very difficult adjustment.
you will be her only friend in this.
If you think you are doing any favors by not understanding her past life and situations ,,
or thinking she will be "changed" fundamentally just because she is thrown into what you perceive as a "better" living  situation

- well i think you will get rudely awakened when the reality is in your home!!

does this mean you HAVE to live the russian life to be married to a RW?
of course not!
and a few weeks living there while visiting her certainly wouldnt make anyone an expert anyway!!
(but it would let you experince breifly what SHE will surely exprience on a much larger scale, that learnming oppurtunity in itself should be worth a weeks time roughing it)

Anyway a real concern to understand, and a healthy respect,
 for how she lives and her culture, and its importance in your budding relationship,, wouldnt hurt?


Listen - I know you probably dint mean it that way,,
at all!
 but it comes off like for you there is no reason to care about her culture,lifestyle , and background since she is moving anyway.
trust me she will likely  remain very Russian.
(and thats a good thing)

it reminds me of jbs' adage of flying in and picking out a puppy..
and heck your taking that puppy to a knew home anyway,
he will have a fresh bed and great food, a big dog run and backyard
to play in -
and that will be his NEW life..
who cares if the FSU kennel was crappy !! He will soon forget that!

probably works ok in regards to puppies,,
but i doubt it will with a RW.

they tend to have very rose colored glasses in looking at the homeland,..
and of course miss everything that was familiar!!!
(even the not so good things, were at least familiar!)

it takes time and a few trips home for many to see that FSU is not the absolute UTOPIA they remember so fondly in their dreams..
*shrugs*
 

[PeeWee]

So far I am with you, AJ. Now what do you do with her child and or children while the two of you are learning how to live with each other in that little flat that you rented? Seems to me if you are going to experience the process that you should live it all. Including the kids. Each situation is so different. I would enjoy the living in the flat but I would think that would have to be a one month or more experience otherwise all you are going to see is someone who is working hard at showing their best side. It can be done for a week or so but after a month eventually one will let their guard down and then "the bitch is back", baby!

For the one week shot I think I would tend to treat it as a vacation for those reasons mentioned above. I'd do the hotel. For the one or month month living test then I'd like the flat idea. But bring the kids. Otherwise the test is not a true on. You need to trip over the rug rats too, in otherwords.

Peewee

[PeeWee]

You know, AJ, I was just thinking. I do not know of any woman that I have dated that I felt that I needed to live with her first before I thought of marrying her. My only wife, for example, I did not spend anytime at all living with her and her roommate at the time. Nor did she spend any time living with me at my home. In fact the only time that we did spend together was when we traveled, hence living in a hotel in Mexico or Hawaii. I see no difference. In otherwords, I married a woman, the marriage lasted 10 years, and there was no trial run prior to the wedding. It worked out just fine.

Now are you telling me that I am going to discover something by living with someone prior to marriage that I will not learn otherwise? I think not. I guess I am just a little more confident in my ability to access someone than the next guy is. I don't know. The method in how you spend your quality time with someone prior to marriage just does not seem as important to me as why you spend your quality time with them does.

Peewee 

[jb]

AJ,

I think you are wasting your breath.  PeeWee may have been to Russia, but he has never seen Russia.  Big difference.

[Jumper]

peewee  -
ok your first marriage you dint live , or spend time living with ,  her first..
but i'm assuming (and could be wrong)
that you dated her in more natural way, seeing each other very often,
maybe daily, seeing her friends and family,
interacting with all of them,, seeing her in countless  interactions with other people,  having the time to learn all about each other, like most local couples do ?

and you are comparing it to the average WM/RW scenerio?

was your first wife from another culture?with a different first language?
was it a situation like most WM/RW, where you saw her once every few months ,for week or two ,at best?
where there is also a language barrier of not being able to see her interactions with waiters, friends and family
(ultimately that will be your interaction with her afterall?)

i think it's hard to draw that line?
unless you are dating a woman in moscow, living in moscow, speak fluent russian , and can date her naturally.
there wouldnt be any comparision to a local realtionship?

Hey do you have to live together for a month ,or week first? LOL!  
heavens no.
plenty of successful one week wonders , or even arrnaged marriages in theworld to completely disprove that.

my whole way too long *speal*  LOL
was just some reasons why a flat *might* be better than a hotel.
when dating an FSU woman..

ultimately it wouldnt have much to do with a marriages success!!

in my mind perhaps just a quicker way to see if your *initially* compatible is all..and learn a bit more about each other than a vacation would maybe?

yeap certainly any children  play a big role of course!!
and before proposing i would sure want to see how all that played out in a more daily grind situation!! in fact you would owe it to them,
 before displacing a whole family..??

anyway here is a swemi related thread from RWG with some variuos opinoins on flat vs hotel rooms in a provincial city?
http://www.rwguide.com/forums/topic.cfm?topic=2205


FWIW- i think there are stats on local marriages that show divorce rates are higher, or at least people divorce sooner, in couples that lived together beforehand.
but i'm thinking that wasnt living together one week, or one month..LOL

 i always wondered if those stats dint simply indicate that people just get a 7 year itch.. (or 10 or 15 whatever)
 and if they lived together a couple of years pre marriage,
 it just was a natural result ?  


This really went off topic,
and should have been a completely different thread!

sorry chivo!

[Leslie]

Peewee

This attitude will condemn you to failure -

"I look at it this way. I am not going to Russia to learn how to be a Russian so why live like one? She, on the other hand, is a Russian who hopefully coming to my country to live as an American, not a Russian. So who is adapting to whose way of life? Certainly not me to hers so why would I need to know much about what it is like to live as she does? I would think that hopefully we were both moving our lives away from that and to something that might be better for both of us."

If you marry a Russian Woman you become one partner in a bi cultural marriage.  Your wife will always be Russian.

Why are you looking for a Russian wife ?!

I think you should examine your motivations very carefully.  If you have no interest in understanding Russian's and their culture why are trying to marry one  ???

This mindset is pure MOB jerk. 

[Jumper]

AJ,

I think you are wasting your breath.  PeeWee may have been to Russia, but he has never seen Russia.  Big difference.

LMAO at jb and les!

i feel like the good cop in :
good cop /bad cop.

you guys beat him up awhile,
 i'll go get us some coffee and bring back some donuts..
to discuss things nicely with  peewee again..

seriously a bunch of married guys all saying the exact  same thing..
scary huh?
we are just "grumpy old men" to these guys?
LOL!

and jb i got your puppy in there even? LOL

anyway peewee you seem open minded enough to consider what these guys are saying..
and its diffinantly worth dwelling a bit on!


as far as not really experiencing Russia..
I can completely understand wanting to be a tourist..
with a *hot* tour guide!
heck i would have really enjoyed it as well-
but i  have never seen Moscow or st pete, and dint have much time to sightsee in Kiev..

it was more important to me to use the time i did have
(and was lucky to have so much)
to go to on outings with my wifes family,to go work and  eat shaslkik out at the dacsha , take her lil  bro around town on the mashruka's,
 visiting the church, the cemetary to put flowers on grandmothers  grave,visiting variuos family/friends for dinner at thier flat, (not some fancy resturant) etc. 

Hey ! We certainly did the romantic things as well , we went to some fine restaurants,, stayed in some nice resorts on vacations,..
all the usual big and small things that couplesdo ..
 
but i'm certainly glad i dint miss out "seeing " a small bit of regular life,
or getting to know her family and friends ,
and some small understanding of the Ukranian/Russian culture and way of life?

[PeeWee]

AJ,

I think you are wasting your breath.  PeeWee may have been to Russia, but he has never seen Russia.  Big difference.

True. I am not planning on living there. I can visit the restroom too. I can see what it is like to sleep and spend time there is just not what I have in mind. I get the picture, in otherwords.

Peewee

[PeeWee]

LMAO at jb and les!

i feel like the good cop in :
good cop /bad cop.

you guys beat him up awhile,
 i'll go get us some coffee and bring back some donuts..
to discuss things nicely with  peewee again..

seriously a bunch of married guys all saying the exact  same thing..
scary huh?
we are just "grumpy old men" to these guys?
LOL!

and jb i got your puppy in there even? LOL

anyway peewee you seem open minded enough to consider what these guys are saying..
and its diffinantly worth dwelling a bit on!


as far as not really experiencing Russia..
I can completely understand wanting to be a tourist..
with a *hot* tour guide!
heck i would have really enjoyed it as well-
but i  have never seen Moscow or st pete, and dint have much time to sightsee in Kiev..

it was more important to me to use the time i did have
(and was lucky to have so much)
to go to on outings with my wifes family,to go work and  eat shaslkik out at the dacsha , take her lil  bro around town on the mashruka's,
 visiting the church, the cemetary to put flowers on grandmothers  grave,visiting variuos family/friends for dinner at thier flat, (not some fancy resturant) etc. 

Hey ! We certainly did the romantic things as well , we went to some fine restaurants,, stayed in some nice resorts on vacations,..
all the usual big and small things that couplesdo ..
 
but i'm certainly glad i dint miss out "seeing " a small bit of regular life,
or getting to know her family and friends ,
and some small understanding of the Ukranian/Russian culture and way of life?

I am not opposed to what you are saying it;s just that I don't see it for me. I'm going to live here in the US and so will she. Could I use the farm analogy? I find a woman who has lived on the farm all of her life. I go to the farm, sleep in the barn, have bacon and eggs with ma an pa...and, yep, that's sure is the farm alright. But we are going to live in the city. If I see another cow it might be too soon. See what I mean?

Peewee

[jb]

I can certainly see what you mean Peewee.

Frankly, if you can not see the value of gaining an understanding of what has shaped your future wife's whole life, then nothing any of us old married guys can say will turn your thoughts around.  I also ran this attitude by my wife and you don't want to know what she thinks of it.

[Jet]

I am not opposed to what you are saying it's just that I don't see it for me.

??? Then you ARE in fact opposed to what he's saying. 

I'm going to live here in the US and so will she. Could I use the farm analogy? I find a woman who has lived on the farm all of her life. I go to the farm, sleep in the barn, have bacon and eggs with ma an pa...and, yep, that's sure is the farm alright. But we are going to live in the city. If I see another cow it might be too soon. See what I mean?

Peewee

I see that as an incredibly selfish perspective - you seem to be focusing on seeing another cow too soon, but completely ignoring what it is about the farm that may formulate her reactions to city life. So what happens when she arrives and says "Da, it's a city...but if I see another skyscraper again, it'll be too soon." Let me guess, you'll just send the ungrateful b*tch back, right?

[PeeWee]

I can certainly see what you mean Peewee.

Frankly, if you can not see the value of gaining an understanding of what has shaped your future wife's whole life, then nothing any of us old married guys can say will turn your thoughts around.  I also ran this attitude by my wife and you don't want to know what she thinks of it.

I think what it is, jb, is that I don;t place a whole lot on the past. I am more interested in what is happening in the present and what might happen in the future. I am really not too interested in  how people got to where they are now. Maybe a good reason why I was never a history major in college?

I think more about where it is that she is going and not where she has been. And yes, I am not too interested in gaining an understanding, beyond a basic one, of what has shaped her entire life. Yet I am finding out alot about that via the telephone and in letters. Again, she is a Russian who is coming to live in America as an American. I am not an American who plans on living in America as a Russian. In otherwords, I am not going to convert. If your best friend was black, you a white, would you spend a whole heck of a lot of time gaining understanding of what has shaped their life? Probably not. Yet he is your friend and always will be. I really don;t figure I need to know a whole lot about what she was doing prior to our meeting.

Peewee

[PeeWee]

??? Then you ARE in fact opposed to what he's saying. 
I see that as an incredibly selfish perspective - you seem to be focusing on seeing another cow too soon, but completely ignoring what it is about the farm that may formulate her reactions to city life. So what happens when she arrives and says "Da, it's a city...but if I see another skyscraper again, it'll be too soon." Let me guess, you'll just send the ungrateful b*tch back, right?

Although I suspect there would have been a conversation prior to all of this that addressed where it was that you both would live. The city or the country. If the decision was, the city, then I am not going to dwell a whole lot on what country life is all about.

And, no, I am not opposed to what he is suggesting. Why would I be? It is working for him and he could change my mind about it.

Peewee

[Killer-B]

Not sure how I missed this dogfight today LOL - The usual suspects 

Either way - Have to say Leslie is 100% correct with this -

Lead with your wallet and you will find a ton of women who will help you spend it. If you are going to build a lasting relationship She has to like/love you for who you are - not the money you are spending.

This needs to be incorporated into the Commandments.

And also agree Ken - Worth "etching into stone" IMHO!

[KenC]

You guys are gonna love this one!
AJ, jb, Jet and Leslie,
You guys are being waaay too hard on poor Peewee. Why does he have to live like a Russian to appreciate how difficult a life his girlfriend had? So what if he never experienced living in a flat where the heat and water supply was inconsistent? Does that mean he cannot have empathy for someone that lived under those conditions? OK, if he has to live it to know his wife (which I disagree with), how long will be good enough for you guys? A week? A month? Six months? Come on and see how ridiculous it can be?

Leslie said that his wife will always be Russian. I don't know if that is a true statement either. She will always have Russian roots for sure, but people do change. I know I teased my wife Lena just the other day in saying that she wasn't Russian or American any more, but Californian. People get married and live happily ever after with very different backgrounds. They don't necessarily have to have the same experiences. Besides, Peewee's girl has the rest of her life to explain her past to him.

I sit and listen intently to Lena's stories about her grandfather whom she was very close to. I will never meet him because he is gone now. Does that mean I cannot relate? No way. Because I tell her stories about my deceased grandmother too. Sometimes the memories are even better than the real thing.

You guys need to cut Peewee some slack here. He doesn't need to experience everything that his girl experienced first hand to know her or love her. And that is what is most important.
KenC

[Jumper]

OK, if he has to live it to know his wife (which I disagree with), how long will be good enough for you guys? A week? A month? Six months? Come on and see how ridiculous it is?

KenC ,
You got my laughing this morning..
the above quote coming from a man , who basically caused Mark to change his name to TOOW over exactly the lenght of time you should spend to understand an know someone? to minimize your risks etc..
but if it relates to understanding her culture and way of life , instead of just her,
you will jump completely on the other side of the fence??

 FWIW-
in my posts I stated that  no you certainly dint have to live with her at all..(heavens no) and that 1 week or 1 month or whatever in a flat  would not be enough time to get only the slightest taste of Russian lifestyle and culture?

as far as being ridiculas,
the whole affair could be considered that way? LOL

but yes to offhandedly throw away a chance to get to know someone better is strange to me..the WM/RW scenerio is bizarre enough? trying to gain a knowledge of how you would interact together in a situation closer to daily life doesnt seem like a bad idea..

 i clearly stated that it wouldnt have much to do with the success of the marriage?and that lots of marriages prove there is nothing  mandatory  to even know each other first?

in your case L came here and could stay fairly long term,
likely the very best scenerio, as you not only have a more natural progresion of the relationship..but she gets to experience and learn this culture where she will be living.

is knowing more about the person you will marry a nessisity?
nope.
is thier getting a chance to know you better required?
no.

can you learn a lot about someone without living together,
absolutely

but all these arguments where very similar to what mark was presenting to you in the long OOW debate !! LOL

Wethin the context of most WM/RW relationships-
does livingtogether for whatever time you have,, 1 week or 4 months,,
 seem one way to learn  if you're compatable as couple..
maybe a luittle better thah thatsame time frame used for nice vacations together?

you tell me?

From my point of view its just a suggestion and certainly not a "must do"!!


but in my case i WANTED to not just meet, but spend some amount of time with her family and friends,,  I feel you can learn a lot about a person thru watching those interactions.(many may disagree) and also wanted to be part of her life, and her life untill meeting me was centered on those people.They are very important to her. do i have to know them at any level? nope.
 would i want to? yes, because it interests me,because what my wife holds dear i wouldwant to know as much about as i could.Becuase i would enjoy living that way..just for the experience if nothing more..
but its not for everyone!

So for what its worth-
From only a few months time living together , i feel it made our marriage easier intially.Having a better understanding of her culture and language helped..
Having a basis for knowing how we interacted in a daily situation helped.
Was it enough time ? no!
but i do feel it gave BOTH of us some insight into the relationship and if it should be taken to the level of marriage.
it was simply a tool to learn a bit more..

just like spending more than one week together is a tool, that some will uise, some wont,, but it seems to make sense to use it.. (no THAT is a can of worms isnt it?)

 just a tool in the old tool box that all you had to do was pick up.nothing more.
no need to..!!
 but it might make the job easier,, maybe not..
but its laying in the tool box anyway?

in these situations i want to use every available resource..
the fact is the tool you used KenC ,
was the best case scenerio ..
a hammer to drive a nail !
yea you can bust your thumb, but with some skill you are probably ok.

in my case it was more like driving a nail with a screwdriver.
it can be done ,but not the best way.
more likely to bust you thumb !

in the russian scenerio-
 a man taking a vacation or three with his romantic interests ,
not caring a lick about her culture , or interacting with family and friends,,
which define her..
seems more like trying to drive that same nail with a pair of pliers.
it can be done!
but it makes it tough to decide which is the best way to even hold those pliers?


anyway this whole mess started over *hotel vs flat*
so kind of cracks me up.
its just a suggestion of how a flat *might* help you.or not.
nothing more.
your marriage wouldnt succeed or fail over any of it.

peewee's attitude of just *not caring* is what got us GOM riled up.
As in many cases you can take the girl off the farm,, but not the farm out of the girl.
Maybe not peewee,
but many men are looking for a RW because of her alledged traits and culture,  to then , "not care" makes the decision to pursue RW in general odd?
Hey i'm going to fly half way around the world to marry a woman..
I can only spend limited time with .
why?
Dont try and tell me peewee dint start this adventure with some preconceived thoughts of the women from that culture..
and that played an important role in him even thinking about it?
 So a flippant attitude about even caring about her background does seem strange.

I'm not sure where he is coming from..
but next you will be telling peewee that one week is fine?
 
you know i'm just messing with you Ken!!
but it is tough to seperate your past preaching about how anyone  should spend time to really get to know and understand a person,
from spending that time in a way to understand her culture and enviroment that helped shape that person..

it seems to me you are drawing a line in the sand, but we are standing in the middle of the Imperial dunes.
*shrugs*

[KenC]

AJ,
I don't think what I said above is in any way conflicted with how I feel about one week wonders. Sure, living as a Russian may give you some insight to how your sweetie came to be who she is when you met her, but you can also get that through communication too. It is much more important for her to be able to adapt to your enviornment than you to hers as it is yours that you will live in.

I hate to bring this up, but it does make my point well. Maxx spent a lot of time with his ex's family. He cooked shashlik with them and he went to the banya with them. How did that help him learn who his wife from hell was? In his case he may have even been misled by his time with them.

I respect where my wife came from. I relish learning everything there is to know about her past in Russia. I enjoy my time with her parents (who are arriving this evenning). But i don't think it is necessary for me to dig potatoes in the dirt to know who she is.
KenC

[Maxx2]

I hate to bring this up, but it does make my point well. Maxx spent a lot of time with his ex's family. He cooked shashlik with them and he went to the banya with them. How did that help him learn who his wife from hell was? In his case he may have even been misled by his time with them.

I hope the reason you hate to bring this up is because of my reaction of everything Elvira. BTW I "heard" from her today. Apparently the divorce papers of 2 years and 2 months ago mis-spelled one vowel in her last name. No biggie, she must need this corrected for her 5th or 6th marriage to happen.

If you want I could give you a good understanding about her family in regard to me understanding what kind of person she was.

Maxx

[Jumper]

I respect where my wife came from. I relish learning everything there is to know about her past in Russia. I enjoy my time with her parents (who are arriving this evenning). But i don't think it is necessary for me to dig poysyord st hrt fs,ily'd dschs to know who she is.

Same here, we agree more than disagree Ken, you know that.
but your bolded part is where peewee got all us  GOM riled yup! LOL
He did not come across anything at all like you are with that statement?
not even close.
he came across like a guy reading to much MOB stuff and going and picking out a puppy.. where the kennel is, and its conditions doesnt matter.
He may not really mean that, but thats how he came off ..

There seems a big difference between a willingness to really understand and be informed..about her,her way of life and her culture,
 however that information comes,
than refusing to care, or thinking it isnt even slightly important?


As far as bringing in maxx,..lol

its why i stated my reasoning was akin to driving a nail with a screwdriver? its not a good tool for that!!
but it sure as hell isnt any worse of a tool,
than simply vacationing with a woman for that same amount of time?

if you dont find conflicted advice between telling a guy to spend as much face time as possible learning about thier future wives,,
and that they are indeed foolish not too!

and telling them not to bother learning the culture first hand-
they can learn just as much about her and her culture by communication,
 Then writing, good phone conversations, good communication
are just as easily justified by that  exact same argument for the lenght of face time before proposing  
The-
 i dont think i need to stay in a flat, or  go to the dascha , ,to learn about Russians- sounds awfully famialiar to :
I dont think its nessasry to get to know her in face to face time,
 i can learn so much about her in 6 months of writing,,

 The strangest part to me is my advice on a flat isnt really about learning  russian culture! (although its a small side benefit, that seems useful)
its about learning wether you can stand tripping over each other daily.. in an ordinary setting. everyone sems to skip over that right to the
"i dont need to live in a dumpy flat, to understand her way of life"

5 star hotels and tourist activities make it fairly easy to get along in a nice romantic place thats new and exotic to both of you?

if you got the time to do both great! (i did have and feel incredibly fortunante )
but if you are like most of the guys i see traveling to the FSU,
and need to choose between one or the other,
 and are trying to really learn about a woman you intend to marry?
*shrugs*


I do have a question ,
Maxx if you had taken E on the 5 star hotel route,to other cities,
 would you have learned anything different?

Did you have a better chance of learning of her real intentions, her past marriages, the scam of the agency, etc etc etc ,
 by living a month in her home city? visiting al her friends and relatives?

seems to me she avoided introdicing you to her father, or most friends etc..
dint wantto do the routine stuff , or certainly not around people she knew or mingled with sdaily,,

and a longer time spent day to day , in her city, would have possibly clued you in more?

Hey i could certainly be wrong,

in fact i'm normally wrong,
just ask my wife? LOL

but i think it was poor example KenC?

(sorry maxx i know hindsight is 20/20 , and dont want to rub salt in ancient wounds)