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Author Topic: Is Ukraine Strategically Important?  (Read 21798 times)

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Offline Boethius

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Is Ukraine Strategically Important?
« on: July 07, 2014, 02:44:29 PM »
In most of the back and forth in the threads here and in the No Holds Barred, there is discussion of U.S. hegemony, and implications the U.S. "caused" the downfall of Yanukovych.

Although the U.S. has given funds to Ukraine, there is no doubt, what, exactly, is the strategic benefit to America in funding NGO's, think tanks, and the foundations of democracy in Ukraine? 


My view is, there is very little strategic benefit to the U.S., beyond opening a limited market for U.S. corporations.
After the fall of communism, the biggest mistake Boris Yeltsin's regime made was not to disband the KGB altogether. Instead it changed its name to the FSB and, to many observers, morphed into a gangster organisation, eventually headed by master criminal Vladimir Putin. - Gerard Batten

Offline GQBlues

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Re: Is Ukraine Strategically Important?
« Reply #1 on: July 07, 2014, 03:49:39 PM »
Ukraine has a multitude of strategic importance for anyone, economically or miltarily. More so to Russia. *Taking* Ukraine away would be a huge blow to the Kremlin. Crimea's point location literally places it in the middle of the Black Sea. You can't *sink* a landmass no matter how much you bomb it. The British found that out in Virginia, as the Americans did as well in Iwo Jima.

It has a major strategic waterways. Advantageous for both military and commerce. Especially commerce. Early US state borders were created with *waterways* as the driving force of their divisions.

Ukraine is 46 million strong. The second largest nation in Europe and second only to Russia. It represents a major potential market force and (re)source. Ukraine stands to be immensely beneficial to EU's current economic condition. From finance and banking, energy, and agriculture.

Ukraine is the sole and current energy transit conduit between Russia/Europe. It also represents the major player in Eurasia's marketsphere.

It shares approximately 1,500 miles of common border with Russia. Added to the current NATO nations in the region; the region can literally be the east/west gateway economically and militarily. Even with Belarus in Russia's corner, it is literally landlocked if Ukraine becomes less of Russia's ally.

Ukraine is believed to harness energy sources (gas and oil) and is estimated to be valued in the hundreds of billions of dollars for any market capital ventures.

Currently, Ukraine have 15 nuclear reactors in 4 different locations. These reactors can be easily converted to produce nuclear warheads.

It is also a major weapon manufacturer. Ballistic missilles, Cargo/transport military planes, etc...all critical to Russia's military complex.

Not least of which in all of the above: Intelligence.

So when you say:

Quote
..Although the U.S. has given funds to Ukraine, there is no doubt, what, exactly, is the strategic benefit to America in funding NGO's, think tanks, and the foundations of democracy in Ukraine?...


*Invested* is the better word, and one which Pyatt uses to describe our *love trap* relations with Ukraine. There's no better way to get an advantage over your nemesis than just simply kicking him in the bawls
« Last Edit: July 07, 2014, 04:06:12 PM by GQBlues »
Quote from: msmob
1. Because of 'man', global warming is causing desert and arid areas to suffer long, dry spell.
2. The 2018 Camp Fire and Woolsey California wildfires are forests burning because of global warming.
3. N95 mask will choke you dead after 30 min. of use.

Offline Boethius

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Re: Is Ukraine Strategically Important?
« Reply #2 on: July 07, 2014, 04:32:27 PM »
But the U.S. can achieve all of that without giving a cent to Ukraine.


I just don't buy the theory that the US is an evil empire, intent on world rule.  I think past funding has mostly been to aid in establishing the foundations of democracy.
After the fall of communism, the biggest mistake Boris Yeltsin's regime made was not to disband the KGB altogether. Instead it changed its name to the FSB and, to many observers, morphed into a gangster organisation, eventually headed by master criminal Vladimir Putin. - Gerard Batten

Offline GQBlues

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Re: Is Ukraine Strategically Important?
« Reply #3 on: July 07, 2014, 04:39:39 PM »
But the U.S. can achieve all of that without giving a cent to Ukraine.

Really? Do you honestly believe we poured billions of dollars (translation: stole our tax monies since these things are NEVER in our fiscal budgets) out of the kindness of our collective, albeit ignorant, hearts?


Quote
..I just don't buy the theory that the US is an evil empire, intent on world rule.  I think past funding has mostly been to aid in establishing the foundations of democracy.

Funny how these things change. Not too long ago Bush was demonize for his infamous *Bush Doctrine*. Now that there has not only been far more unrest and hostilities the world over - center to it all is the US - it has all been intensified and all of the sudden, all of that is ignored and you instantly can't believe we, as a nation, can't possibly be this conniving?

You can't see things objectively looking away Boethius.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2014, 04:43:03 PM by GQBlues »
Quote from: msmob
1. Because of 'man', global warming is causing desert and arid areas to suffer long, dry spell.
2. The 2018 Camp Fire and Woolsey California wildfires are forests burning because of global warming.
3. N95 mask will choke you dead after 30 min. of use.

Offline Boethius

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Re: Is Ukraine Strategically Important?
« Reply #4 on: July 07, 2014, 05:04:05 PM »
Really? Do you honestly believe we poured billions of dollars (translation: stole our tax monies since these things are NEVER in our fiscal budgets) out of the kindness of our collective, albeit ignorant, hearts?


Funny how these things change. Not too long ago Bush was demonize for his infamous *Bush Doctrine*. Now that there has not only been far more unrest and hostilities the world over - center to it all is the US - it has all been intensified and all of the sudden, all of that is ignored and you instantly can't believe we, as a nation, can't possibly be this conniving?

You can't see things objectively looking away Boethius.


I think it is American interests for European countries, and Russia, or that matter, to be democracies.   


The problem with the Bush doctrine was not the promotion of democracy, but the desire to impose it.  Democracy cannot be imposed on a country. 
After the fall of communism, the biggest mistake Boris Yeltsin's regime made was not to disband the KGB altogether. Instead it changed its name to the FSB and, to many observers, morphed into a gangster organisation, eventually headed by master criminal Vladimir Putin. - Gerard Batten

Offline GQBlues

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Re: Is Ukraine Strategically Important?
« Reply #5 on: July 07, 2014, 05:09:47 PM »
First off, your post is strikingly contradictory. Secondly,

...The problem with the Bush doctrine was not the promotion of democracy, but the desire to impose it.  Democracy cannot be imposed on a country.

What do you think the Arab uprisings were all about? Libya is a shining example of your statement, but that certainly didn't stop us and frankly I don't see a whole lot of difference with the Bush Doctrine: Preemptive actions against those we deem obstructive to our securities and interests. Overtly or covertly.

Hell, apparently it is also now legal* to kill US citizens without due course of law. I can still remember the nation and the world going up in arms against Bush for *depriving* (known combatants caught in the field of battle who wishes harm to our state and security) of their *civil rights*. They even threw habeas corpus, the geneva convention, the adventures of Wally, the duck, etc. to make their points..Now we kill our own without due course and you don't hear a murmur from the mainstream...

The more things *change*, the more they remain the same. It just gets worst, is all...
« Last Edit: July 07, 2014, 05:24:43 PM by GQBlues »
Quote from: msmob
1. Because of 'man', global warming is causing desert and arid areas to suffer long, dry spell.
2. The 2018 Camp Fire and Woolsey California wildfires are forests burning because of global warming.
3. N95 mask will choke you dead after 30 min. of use.

Offline Boethius

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Re: Is Ukraine Strategically Important?
« Reply #6 on: July 07, 2014, 05:16:59 PM »
I don't think the statements are contradictory.  Ukraine was not invaded in an effort to spread democracy to the region.   The Bush doctrine, which really is a regurgitation of the PNAC manifesto, is that invading a country and imposing democratic structures would lead to a change in the Middle East.


The Arab uprisings likely would have occurred whether or not the US had invaded Iraq.
After the fall of communism, the biggest mistake Boris Yeltsin's regime made was not to disband the KGB altogether. Instead it changed its name to the FSB and, to many observers, morphed into a gangster organisation, eventually headed by master criminal Vladimir Putin. - Gerard Batten

Offline GQBlues

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Re: Is Ukraine Strategically Important?
« Reply #7 on: July 07, 2014, 05:20:40 PM »
But who are *we* to be imposing anything, anywhere, anytime on anyone?

In my short book, that's hegemony by definition.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2014, 05:23:06 PM by GQBlues »
Quote from: msmob
1. Because of 'man', global warming is causing desert and arid areas to suffer long, dry spell.
2. The 2018 Camp Fire and Woolsey California wildfires are forests burning because of global warming.
3. N95 mask will choke you dead after 30 min. of use.

Offline Boethius

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Re: Is Ukraine Strategically Important?
« Reply #8 on: July 07, 2014, 05:37:28 PM »
I don't disagree with that. 

There is a difference in creating a particular event (Iraq), and acting on events, with the best of intentions (Ukraine).

I don't see how providing funds to ensure Ukraine (and Russia, as the US provided funds to Russia after the collapse of the USSR as well) succeeds in its quest to establish democratic institutions is an exercise of hegemonic power.
After the fall of communism, the biggest mistake Boris Yeltsin's regime made was not to disband the KGB altogether. Instead it changed its name to the FSB and, to many observers, morphed into a gangster organisation, eventually headed by master criminal Vladimir Putin. - Gerard Batten

Offline fathertime

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Re: Is Ukraine Strategically Important?
« Reply #9 on: July 07, 2014, 06:22:33 PM »
But the U.S. can achieve all of that without giving a cent to Ukraine.


I just don't buy the theory that the US is an evil empire, intent on world rule.  I think past funding has mostly been to aid in establishing the foundations of democracy.


On this thread,GQ made the case that Crimea was strategically important...and this reply does not refute or demonstrate that it is not.....which is the conclusion you have stated in your opening post.  To this point you have put your initial statement out there and been unable to defend it at all...


It doesn't make sense to state Crimea is NOT strategically important and not state your reasons why you have reached that conclusion. 


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Offline Boethius

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Re: Is Ukraine Strategically Important?
« Reply #10 on: July 07, 2014, 06:37:48 PM »
Yet again, you miss the point.  I am not referring to Crimea.  If you wish to discuss Crimea, do so in one of the 999 threads devoted to that particular topic.


This is about the $5 billion the United States has sent to Ukraine over two decades plus.  Others have stated this is so that the U.S. gains control of Ukraine.  I don't believe that.
After the fall of communism, the biggest mistake Boris Yeltsin's regime made was not to disband the KGB altogether. Instead it changed its name to the FSB and, to many observers, morphed into a gangster organisation, eventually headed by master criminal Vladimir Putin. - Gerard Batten

Offline fathertime

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Re: Is Ukraine Strategically Important?
« Reply #11 on: July 07, 2014, 07:04:41 PM »
Yet again, you miss the point.  I am not referring to Crimea.  If you wish to discuss Crimea, do so in one of the 999 threads devoted to that particular topic.


This is about the $5 billion the United States has sent to Ukraine over two decades plus.  Others have stated this is so that the U.S. gains control of Ukraine.  I don't believe that.


my mistake....Crimea isn't the thrust of this thread....


On this topic....Our 'representatives' seem to believe that weakening Russia and it's influence is in the interest of the USA....so helping to create distance between the two countries is in the US interest....and it appears the USA has succeeded in that respect. 


Fathertime!   
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Offline Boethius

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Re: Is Ukraine Strategically Important?
« Reply #12 on: July 07, 2014, 07:27:06 PM »
But the U.S. first started sending funds to Ukraine when it was also aiding Russia.    Russia eventually viewed foreign NGO's as handmaidens of the devil U.S., and prohibited many from working on Russian soil.  So, if the intent was to put a distance between the countries, I think they went about it the wrong way.


Russia has interfered in Ukrainian politics since its independence.  However, it is Ukrainian oligarchs who have the most influence on Ukrainian internal affairs.


I think the influence of diaspora Ukrainians, who flocked there after the Soviet collapse, aided in Ukraine having more of a Western outlook.  They used funds from the Soros Foundation and the U.S. to help establish democratic institutions. 


I just don't buy the narrative that the U.S. is interested in moving Ukraine from the Russian sphere.  Further, I believe Russia, not the U.S., achieved this.  The funding and support of terrorists in the Eastern regions has caused more anti Russian sentiment in Ukraine than anything I can think of.
After the fall of communism, the biggest mistake Boris Yeltsin's regime made was not to disband the KGB altogether. Instead it changed its name to the FSB and, to many observers, morphed into a gangster organisation, eventually headed by master criminal Vladimir Putin. - Gerard Batten

Offline calmissile

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Re: Is Ukraine Strategically Important?
« Reply #13 on: July 07, 2014, 08:41:07 PM »
The funding and support of terrorists in the Eastern regions has caused more anti Russian sentiment in Ukraine than anything I can think of.

Along with the invasion and annexing of Crimea.  Many, many Ukrainians vacationed there and had dachas there.

Offline southernX

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Re: Is Ukraine Strategically Important?
« Reply #14 on: July 07, 2014, 08:43:43 PM »
But the U.S. first started sending funds to Ukraine when it was also aiding Russia.    Russia eventually viewed foreign NGO's as handmaidens of the devil U.S., and prohibited many from working on Russian soil.  So, if the intent was to put a distance between the countries, I think they went about it the wrong way.


Russia has interfered in Ukrainian politics since its independence.  However, it is Ukrainian oligarchs who have the most influence on Ukrainian internal affairs.


I think the influence of diaspora Ukrainians, who flocked there after the Soviet collapse, aided in Ukraine having more of a Western outlook.  They used funds from the Soros Foundation and the U.S. to help establish democratic institutions. 


I just don't buy the narrative that the U.S. is interested in moving Ukraine from the Russian sphere.  Further, I believe Russia, not the U.S., achieved this.  The funding and support of terrorists in the Eastern regions has caused more anti Russian sentiment in Ukraine than anything I can think of.

BO , GREAT POST !!
totally agree with you ,

what some simply fail to grasp is this movement away from russia is fueled by the people and aided by russias own action over many years,

i personally dont think ukraine is that strategically significant to  anyone other than russia ,
the geographical areas that have been invaded by russian backed terrorists are significant to russias military supplies , similar to sevastopol


NATO /US has sufficent bases around the globe to cover most scenarios should they arise at present
ukraine was & is not needed by NATO/US   imho

the EU/US , like the majority of the rest of the world im sure would much rather support any country that is trying to move closer toward true self gov & democracy and stability , not only for its own growth and improved living standards but also for world stability , there in lies the basis for ukraines support , unlike my belief that russias  support  [if you could call it that ] was more for control & maintaining a weakened , dependant neighbour

SX
Going to church doesn't make you a Christian any more than standing in a garage makes you a car.

Offline BillyB

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Re: Is Ukraine Strategically Important?
« Reply #15 on: July 07, 2014, 08:54:00 PM »
My view is, there is very little strategic benefit to the U.S., beyond opening a limited market for U.S. corporations.



If America doesn't help it's friends within a nation, the nation will become America's enemy. Russia/Soviet Union is/was very active in supporting its friends. How many nations America helped liberate in WWII only to have the Soviet Union support Communists within those nations to overthrow their governments and turn the nation into our enemy? Ukraine is one small piece of the puzzle but if Ukraine becomes a democracy, it does help improve America and the free world's security. A secure world means a prosperous world so yes, I think Ukraine is a strategic benefit to the U.S., a benefit big enough to make Russia take action.


I understand some people are upset with America giving nations money to influence their decisions and outcomes but money talks. Even as individuals, the amount of money offered to us determines if we will go to work or not. We're not immune. Money alters our behavior just as it does nations. Some people see this as evil. I don't.


But the U.S. first started sending funds to Ukraine when it was also aiding Russia. 



Yes, America aided Russia in it time of need but also hoping we can create a friend and business partner instead of an enemy. When the Soviet Union or any nation collapses and in it's time of weakness, there can be power grabs. People who hate the free world in control of nukes is not a good thing.
Fund the audits, spread the word and educate people, write your politicians and other elected officials. Stay active in the fight to save our country. Over 220 generals and admirals say we are in a fight for our survival like no other time since 1776.

Offline Shadow

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Re: Is Ukraine Strategically Important?
« Reply #16 on: July 08, 2014, 02:06:24 AM »

I think it is American interests for European countries, and Russia, or that matter, to be democracies.   


The problem with the Bush doctrine was not the promotion of democracy, but the desire to impose it.  Democracy cannot be imposed on a country.
What do you call a democracy?
A country where a president is chosen, and observers have agreed with the elections being fair does seem a democracy to me. Still as soon as the president does not follow the will of some countries, he becomes a dictator in international press. How is that democratic?
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Offline Shadow

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Re: Is Ukraine Strategically Important?
« Reply #17 on: July 08, 2014, 02:10:06 AM »

Yes, America aided Russia in it time of need but also hoping we can create a friend and business partner instead of an enemy. When the Soviet Union or any nation collapses and in it's time of weakness, there can be power grabs. People who hate the free world in control of nukes is not a good thing.
If your definition of free is that America has to be followed, it differs from mine.
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Offline BillyB

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Re: Is Ukraine Strategically Important?
« Reply #18 on: July 08, 2014, 05:39:21 AM »
as soon as the president does not follow the will of some countries, he becomes a dictator in international press. How is that democratic?



A president can't do anything he wants. He has to follow the will of his people, not steal, imprison and kill those in his way. Have you ever given any thought on why the international press ruled Yanukovych a dictator?


If your definition of free is that America has to be followed, it differs from mine.


My definition of free is the same as in the dictionary. Of course even free nations have laws and some people feel they are slaves to these laws. Can't please everyone.


Shadow, you talk about the problems of the free world yet you're fine with Russia controlling or annexing Ukraine. What is your solution? YOUR world is influenced by outside sources. YOUR security and existence is dependent on other nations besides your own. Do you prefer Putin/Russia having more influence on your nation than the EU and America?
Fund the audits, spread the word and educate people, write your politicians and other elected officials. Stay active in the fight to save our country. Over 220 generals and admirals say we are in a fight for our survival like no other time since 1776.

Offline fathertime

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Re: Is Ukraine Strategically Important?
« Reply #19 on: July 08, 2014, 06:33:14 AM »

I understand some people are upset with America giving nations money to influence their decisions and outcomes but money talks. Even as individuals, the amount of money offered to us determines if we will go to work or not. We're not immune. Money alters our behavior just as it does nations. Some people see this as evil. I don't.



Hey Billy, of course I get what you are saying here, so I'll give you 3 scenarios to chew on.




A.   Sally gives Peter 400 dollars because she genuinely wants to help Peter and doesn't care to get anything in return aside from normal behavior and treatment


B.   Sally (the contractor) gives Peter 400 dollars because she wants to assure that Peter chooses her bid over her competition's bids...her work is not better, but by bribing the right person she gets the work. The other contractor starves because he didn't think it was necessary to bribe or simply didn't have the money to bribe Peter.


C.  Sally (the upset housewife) gives Peter 400 dollars because she doesn't like Sam for various reasons.  She wants Peter to not speak with Sam again and hire somebody to rough Sam up.   Peter wouldn't normally do this sort of thing, but he has been losing a lot of work lately and is rather desperate for money.


Yes I'm sure we both realize that money is used for rather evil deeds...and I sure don't think all of our deals (THe USA) are analogous to example A.    Some people seem up in arms over Russia strengthening their position with their invasion of Crimea...considering the types of deals we have done, I think we shouldn't complain...Crimea has a great deal of strategic importance to SOMEBODY, or Russia would not have made such a brazen move to capture it and only it....to this point


Fathertime!   
« Last Edit: July 08, 2014, 06:58:30 AM by fathertime »
I just happened to be browsing about the internet....

Offline JayH

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Re: Is Ukraine Strategically Important?
« Reply #20 on: July 08, 2014, 07:29:46 AM »


Yes I'm sure we both realize that money is used for rather evil deeds...and I sure don't think all of our deals (THe USA) are analogous to example A.    Some people seem up in arms over Russia strengthening their position with their invasion of Crimea...considering the types of deals we have done, I think we shouldn't complain...Crimea has a great deal of strategic importance to SOMEBODY, or Russia would not have made such a brazen move to capture it and only it....to this point

Fathertime!

How many times does it need to be pointed out--- it is NOT about the USA  .Regardless of assessments of the past-it has zero to do with the Russian invasion of Ukraine.Russia has invaded another country after pledging respect for its borders and sovereignty.
You are so USA centric that you cannot empathise with a nation left nearly on it's own to face the might of Russia--  where good Ukrainians are being killed because of Putin's machinations--- that is zero to do with the US or anything the US created.
Strategic importance? Is that militarily? Economic? Sphere of influence? Geographical?
Whatever-- Putin has created a situation where Russia will never be trusted by Ukraine again-- or at least while the old soviet attitudes and corruption prevails.
SLAVA UKRAYINI  ! HEROYAM SLAVA!!!!
Слава Украине! Слава героям слава!Слава Україні! Слава героям!
 translated as: Glory to Ukraine! Glory to the heroes!!!  is a Ukrainian greeting slogan being used now all over Ukraine to signify support for a free independent Ukraine

Offline fathertime

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Re: Is Ukraine Strategically Important?
« Reply #21 on: July 08, 2014, 07:47:29 AM »
How many times does it need to be pointed out--- it is NOT about the USA  .Regardless of assessments of the past-it has zero to do with the Russian invasion of Ukraine.Russia has invaded another country after pledging respect for its borders and sovereignty.
You are so USA centric that you cannot empathise with a nation left nearly on it's own to face the might of Russia--  where good Ukrainians are being killed because of Putin's machinations--- that is zero to do with the US or anything the US created.
Strategic importance? Is that militarily? Economic? Sphere of influence? Geographical?
Whatever-- Putin has created a situation where Russia will never be trusted by Ukraine again-- or at least while the old soviet attitudes and corruption prevails.

Yes the perspective I give is US centric at times.  I have concluded that western powers have helped to force Russia's hand so that is where many of the viewpoints are coming from. There are others that have concluded similarly.

It seems that other posters refuse to take that into consideration at all and want to lay it all on 'crazy putler'...I don't see reason to stay silent when I see it very different.  I'm willing to read other viewpoints although some would rather not.

Fathertime!
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Offline Shadow

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Re: Is Ukraine Strategically Important?
« Reply #22 on: July 08, 2014, 08:04:00 AM »

A president can't do anything he wants. He has to follow the will of his people, not steal, imprison and kill those in his way. Have you ever given any thought on why the international press ruled Yanukovych a dictator?
Because he refused to sign a treaty with the EU.

My definition of free is the same as in the dictionary. Of course even free nations have laws and some people feel they are slaves to these laws. Can't please everyone.


Shadow, you talk about the problems of the free world yet you're fine with Russia controlling or annexing Ukraine. What is your solution? YOUR world is influenced by outside sources. YOUR security and existence is dependent on other nations besides your own. Do you prefer Putin/Russia having more influence on your nation than the EU and America?
First of all, free means that they should make their own choices, and if some other country does not like that choice that country has zero right to interfere. Neither by open or hidden acts, nor by blackpainting the country through press.

I am fine with Russia controlling Ukraine, if the Ukrainian people choose that option. 
My solution has been told from the beginning.
Reform Ukraine in to a federal state, where the regions have the right to keep their own language and culture.
Federal government will have all languages official in regions as official language.

As for Putin having influence in Holland, he could not do much worse as the clowns we have.... in fact many things might improve.
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Offline GQBlues

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Re: Is Ukraine Strategically Important?
« Reply #23 on: July 08, 2014, 09:20:42 AM »
I don't think the statements are contradictory.  Ukraine was not invaded in an effort to spread democracy to the region.   The Bush doctrine, which really is a regurgitation of the PNAC manifesto, is that invading a country and imposing democratic structures would lead to a change in the Middle East...

That's not the Bush Doctrine, Boethius.

Quote
...The Arab uprisings likely would have occurred whether or not the US had invaded Iraq.

As so many other hotspots in our world then and now...

And yes, *spreading democracy*, LOL...cousin to *spreading Christianity*. How lovely.

Let's see now, how many *democratic* and peace-loving dictators we've invested on so far...

Obiang Mbasogo, The Shah of Iran, Augusto Pinochet, Idriss Deby, Noriega, Karimov (we really luv this guy, man. We get to buy his uranium, he gets to *boil* his people. Fcoking great arrangement), Sese Seko, Berdimuhamedov, Ali Saleh, Saddam Hussein, Osama Bin Laden, Said Al Said, Idi Amin, Raoul Cedras, Francois (& Jean Claude) Duvalier, Somosa, BillyB's Nguyen Van Thieu, The Muslim Brotherhood...

These are just the few that I can think of at this time and I assure you there are plenty more.

Heck, we *hated* communism so much, we'll support anyone and everyone. We'll even fight it's shadow right now. The only thing that does surprise me is (considering the Canadians enchantment with communism; Trudeau's "I never met a communist I didn't like") we never invaded your country and changed your regime. Hell, we'd have a new location to place our illegal immigrant and freeze all of them up there a while.

It matters very little all of our *selected* dictators democratic leaders in those regions torture or killed many of their kind in their quest to find *democracy*. Millions upon millions. And you honestly believe a *mere* 100 or so dead Ukrainian in Kiev is somehow consequential? Look at who was McCain standing arm to elbow with? What do you think Brennar was in Ukraine for? Look at who was Albright embracing fondly with...

Folks can bury their heads on the sand and claim Ukraine only wanted *change* and we're *invested* to help as though we are the shining beacon of salvation. LOL. Yeah, well, sleep on that.
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Offline Boethius

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Re: Is Ukraine Strategically Important?
« Reply #24 on: July 08, 2014, 09:27:23 AM »
Quote
That's not the Bush Doctrine, Boethius.


That depends on what definition you adopt.  If it is the Krauthammer definition, then I agree.  If it is preemptive strikes, then I also agree.  If it is the PNAC solution, which Bush himself referred to (though not the PNAC document), then I disagree.




As for Ukraine, you will never convince me the US was behind Euromaidan.
After the fall of communism, the biggest mistake Boris Yeltsin's regime made was not to disband the KGB altogether. Instead it changed its name to the FSB and, to many observers, morphed into a gangster organisation, eventually headed by master criminal Vladimir Putin. - Gerard Batten

 

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