Putin is No Hitler

[The Natural]

Your posts have always indicated you are a conspiracy theorist.  However, Euromaidan was never directed by the U.S.   Even it is were, let's look at the history of the United States, and the history of Russia, and then you tell me, if we had lifespans of 300 years, which country you'd have preferred your children to grow up in.

Yeah, start off Your reply With some labelling. I sometimes get a feeling that the definition of a conspiracy theorist these days are a person who believe there's a self-serving plan behind the meddling of the USA government. But aren't you Canadian?

Your question is leading, to put it extremely mildly. In 300 years, of course I would want that my dear Erik live in the US. But in the Next 300 years... I'm not so sure.

Anyhow, is it any of Our business how the Russians or any other Nationals want to govern themselves? I say no. Leave them alone and leave me alone. You say yes. But remember Bo, when Obama said they are the exceptional and indispensable People, I don't think he also meant the Canadians 

[Boethius]

seriously lacking of the rules of law

That was not true with respect to Ukraine's top court.  The Supreme Court (Verkhovny Sud Ukrainu) was not corrupt until Yanukovych came to power and replaced its judges with his cronies.  I have experience with this court, and have followed its decisions.

[GQBlues]

Imagine that!

I guess I didn't know Ukraine was a beacon of a cleansed society before Yanukovich. 

[Boethius]

Yeah, start off Your reply With some labelling. I sometimes get a feeling that the definition of a conspiracy theorist these days are a person who believe there's a self-serving plan behind the meddling of the USA government. But aren't you Canadian?

Yes.  And I am neither anti American nor anti Russian.  Of course if America is involved, it is in their interests.  But I don't subscribe to the theory they created the situation in Ukraine.  They reacted to it.

Your question is leading, to put it extremely mildly. In 300 years, of course I would want that my dear Erik live in the US. But in the Next 300 years... I'm not so sure.

You referred to history.  History tells us Russia has not been a great place to live in the past.  The trend, with authoritarianism, says it is on the same path now as in the past.  I hope that is not the case, but tell me your past and I will tell you who you are.

Anyhow, is it any of Our business how the Russians or any other Nationals want to govern themselves? I say no. Leave them alone and leave me alone.

I agree with that.  But when it comes to Ukraine, Russia never has.

You say yes. But remember Bo, when Obama said they are the exceptional and indispensable People, I don't think he also meant the Canadians 

No, I am saying that if nations accept help in establishing democratic institutions, then other countries should help them, just as we help with medicine, education, clean water, etc.


Canada has been at the forefront of aid to Ukraine.  I believe the United States has been as well not because it serves its interests, primarily, but because both Canada and the U.S. have large Ukrainian diasporas who are politically active, knew their history, and wanted to ensure these democratic institutions were developed.

[Boethius]

Imagine that!

I guess I didn't know Ukraine was a beacon of a cleansed society before Yanukovich. 

Don't twist what I said.  The fact is, when it comes to Ukraine's Supreme Court, you are absolutely wrong, wrong, wrong.   You have no personal knowledge of this, and I doubt you follow Ukraine's Supreme court decisions.  I do.  I had a client who prevailed against the Ukrainian government (its partner in a joint venture).  That would not happen in a country with no rule of law.

Ukraine also had, and has, a very free press.  Yanukovych tried to change that as well. The quality of journalism has declined over the last year of Yanukovych's presidency, but journalists are not restricted in any way in what they print.

[GQBlues]

Don't twist what I said.  The fact is, when it comes to Ukraine's Supreme Court, you are absolutely wrong, wrong, wrong.   You have no personal knowledge of this, and I doubt you follow Ukraine's Supreme court decisions.  I do.  I had a client who prevailed against the Ukrainian government (its partner in a joint venture).  That would not happen in a country with no rule of law....

LOL.

Were you trying to make (futile) point or were you just flying your sash with that statement?

So tell us counselor, exactly HOW did this little teeny-weeny little 'fact' absolved corruption in Ukraine BY and LARGE - before, during, and AFTER Yanukovich?

...Ukraine also had, and has, a very free press.  Yanukovych tried to change that as well. The quality of journalism has declined over the last year of Yanukovych's presidency, but journalists are not restricted in any way in what they print.

See above.

Here's a nice colorful and interactive map report of corrupt countries in the world. So you don't have to take my word for it since I don't have the same *latitude of expertise* in this region as you. 

http://www.businessinsider.com/the-most-corrupt-countries-in-the-world-2013-12

[Gator]

Those of you who believe the US had conducted clandestine operations in Ukraine to overthrow their past government need to recognize that Obama, as he promised during his campaign, has conducted the most transparent administration in history.  If the US government did anything underhanded, the press would know it and report it.     

OK, I am not serious.  Yet I am serious in saying 1) Ukraine is not strategically significant to the US (Boethius's point many days ago) and 2) Obama's international aims are weak and feckless.  This suggests the US has done little in Ukraine.

Things have now changed.  I watched Obama's noon talk from the White House.  I have never seen him so resolute about an international issue.  I feel he will become harsh with Putin, stopping just short of hurting the global economy.  Now if only the Europeans will get in line.  I expect the Dutch will if they are not as pro-Russia as Shadow, particularly after their citizens have been slaughtered in a reckless act by a group supported if not controlled by Russia.     

[Boethius]

LOL.

Were you trying to make (futile) point or were you just flying your sash with that statement?

So tell us counselor, exactly HOW did this little teeny-weeny little 'fact' absolved corruption in Ukraine BY and LARGE - before, during, and AFTER Yanukovich? 

You stated there is no rule of law in Ukraine.  That is incorrect.  It is flawed, but it does exist.


You stated Ukraine's courts are corrupt.   That is incorrect in the case of Ukraine's highest court.  It has not been bought by oligarchs, it has not bent to the demands of government, the president, the Rada, or opposition leaders.  I have been mildly shocked and pleasantly surprised by this court.

Here's a nice colorful and interactive map report of corrupt countries in the world. So you don't have to take my word for it since I don't have the same *latitude of expertise* in this region as you. 

I didn't post Ukraine is not corrupt.  You can go back and search my posts for my position on this.  I just pointed out your broad statement was not accurate.

[Boethius]

I expect the Dutch will if they are not as pro-Russia as Shadow, particularly after their citizens have been slaughtered in a reckless act by a group supported if not controlled by Russia.     

The Dutch have been extremely hesitant to support any sanctions, as they have significant business interests in Russia. 

[GQBlues]

You stated there is no rule of law in Ukraine.  That is incorrect.  It is flawed, but it does exist.


You stated Ukraine's courts are corrupt.   That is incorrect in the case of Ukraine's highest court.  It has not been bought by oligarchs, it has not bent to the demands of government, the president, the Rada, or opposition leaders.  I have been mildly shocked and pleasantly surprised by this court....

Slice and dice this anyway you want, the fact Yanu was illegally removed (which you earlier admitted too but had since recanted your position for some reason) from office, clearly supports my assertion as it stands. They could've uphold the Constitution at the time of the ousting but didn't.

...I didn't post Ukraine is not corrupt.  You can go back and search my posts for my position on this.  I just pointed out your broad statement was not accurate....

See above.

As a law practitioner, I didn't think it is required of me to remind you that *corruption* and *absence of rules of law* go hand in hand, or quite simply...synonymous. So, you alone will have to pick fly sh!t out of this proverbial bed of peppers.

You are somehow taking exception to something else. What it is, only you would know.

[Boethius]

Slice and dice this anyway you want, the fact Yanu was illegally removed (which you earlier admitted too but had since recanted your position for some reason) from office, clearly supports my assertion as it stands. They could've uphold the Constitution at the time of the ousting but didn't.

No, he was not removed from office.  He fled the country.  Had he remained, he may have been impeached.  But he fled before that occurred.

The Ukrainian constitution has specific provisions for impeachment.  There is nothing to indicate they would not have been followed.

As a law practitioner, I didn't think it is required of me to remind you that *corruption* and *absence of rules of law* go hand in hand, or quite simply...synonymous. So, you alone will have to pick fly sh!t out of this proverbial bed of peppers.

That is not accurate.  Italy has a rule of law, but, according to the transparency index, it is corrupt.

[The Natural]

Things have now changed.  I watched Obama's noon talk from the White House.  I have never seen him so resolute about an international issue.  I feel he will become harsh with Putin, stopping just short of hurting the global economy.  Now if only the Europeans will get in line.  I expect the Dutch will if they are not as pro-Russia as Shadow, particularly after their citizens have been slaughtered in a reckless act by a group supported if not controlled by Russia.   

Oh, how convenient for the Hawks that this terrorist act happened. Now they can get really Down and dirty in Ukraine and if they're real Lucky, even start a Nuclear war. The Citizens of the empire can wrap themselves in the flag and feel good about themselves for a while. At least until it really starts affecting their own lives in a very negative way.

"Now if only the Europeans will get in line"

Yeah, that's says a lot, that simple little sentence. Get those museum countries in the old world behind the exceptional People, right?

Oh, don't you ever tire of all the Wars and greed? Agressive, afraid, greedy and hungry for ever more Power, to sum it up.

[GQBlues]

Oh, how convenient for the Hawks that this terrorist act happened. Now they can get really Down and dirty in Ukraine and if they're real Lucky, even start a Nuclear war. The Citizens of the empire can wrap themselves in the flag and feel good about themselves for a while. At least until it really starts affecting their own lives in a very negative way.

"Now if only the Europeans will get in line"

Yeah, that's says a lot, that simple little sentence. Get those museum countries in the old world behind the exceptional People, right?

Oh, don't you ever tire of all the Wars and greed? Agressive, afraid, greedy and hungry for ever more Power, to sum it up.

LOL. Right on point!

[GQBlues]

That is not accurate....

syn·on·y·mous: (of a word or phrase)

a) having the same or nearly the same meaning as another word or phrase in the same language. " aggression is often taken as synonymous with violence "

b) closely associated with or suggestive of something. " his deeds had made his name synonymous with victory "

Ukraine: 2008:

Ukraine 2010, April:

Ukraine 2012:

 

[jone]

Here are two directly conflicting stories.  Thought that they would be interesting, side by side:

http://rt.com/news/173932-no-weapons-cross-russia-border/

http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/sbu-releases-more-conversations-implicating-russia-in-shooting-down-malaysia-airlines-flight-video-transcript-2-356778.html

[Boethius]

syn·on·y·mous: (of a word or phrase) a) having the same or nearly the same meaning as another word or phrase in the same language. " aggression is often taken as synonymous with violence "b) closely associated with or suggestive of something. " his deeds had made his name synonymous with victory "

I'm aware of the definition.  There are many countries with a rule of law that are also corrupt.

[Faux Pas]

My denials? For the Third time I say that I don't know who did it because all kids of allegations and rumours are floating around. This in my view always happens shortly after a big event like this. I choose to wait and see what cooler heads finds out. Now I just read that OSSE is in the area of the shootdown to investigate. There are Three in the area capable of doing this, by the way. You left out the USA sponsored government in Kiev. Now, notice how I did not Write that they DID it. But the're also in the limelight as they have several of those rocketlaunchers in the area.

So do I have any evidence. No. Neither do you mr. Pas. Just bits and pieces, true or untrue, that supports Your political view.

Roy, I've merely stated numerous times, all of the evidence thus far points to the separatists. I haven't condemned or convicted them. If you look at the prevailing evidence objectively, you'll probably come to the same conclusion. The separatists control the region. They confiscated the BUK systems that the legal government of Ukraine had in the area. Russia has moved advanced weapons into and out of Eastern Ukraine in the same area. I'm not making it up. There is not three possibilities. There are only two, not three possibilities. The still incomplete evidence supports this, just two possibilities. Russia and/or the separatists. Unless of course you want just throw any guess out there to see what sticks like the U.S did it, I say Boko Harum shot the plane down.

Roy old friend, I have no political view here, no dog in the hunt. My wife is Russian. If I were leaning to what might be expedient or comfortable, I would side with Putin. I abhor our current administration. I'm confident they will only make the situation worse. However, I can't ignore or excuse the obvious and currently Putin is the emperor with no clothes

[Faux Pas]

Good, bad or indifference FP, Ukraine and Russia have a history. We don't. Whatever that history is/was and whatever it is for them today...are theirs to handle on their own. Both those countries are well known to everyone to be corrupt and seriously lacking of the rules of law - from top to bottom. Why the heck would we want to rationalize, much less meddle, anything in those two regions?

Besides, global conflicts, as we are all led to believe, is supposed to be a UN business anyway. The Somalian tragedy should've told us the United Nations IS NOT, and SHOULD NEVER ever mean - United States of America.

All the stupid posturing, chest-thumping sanctions is freaking ridiculous. Let Ukraine have what it wants - whatever it is. It's their business to do so and choose. Even if that choice includes having to deal with Russia on their own.

It is NONE of our business., IMHO.

Agreed. You are preaching to the choir here guy. But, regardless of Ukraine/Russian history, it gives Russia no right to strong arm and bully them into submission of Putin's will as Putin has attempted to do since Yanko left with his ass on fire. Regardless of Ukraine's inner conflict, Russia nor any other country has a right to interfere. Russia clearly is and has. Now, uninvolved innocents have died as a result. If Putin had packed up and went home when he said he was, this wouldn't be an issue, would it?

[GQBlues]

Agreed. You are preaching to the choir here guy. But, regardless of Ukraine/Russian history, it gives Russia no right to strong arm and bully them into submission of Putin's will as Putin has attempted to do since Yanko left with his ass on fire. Regardless of Ukraine's inner conflict, Russia nor any other country has a right to interfere. Russia clearly is and has. Now, uninvolved innocents have died as a result. If Putin had packed up and went home when he said he was, this wouldn't be an issue, would it?

We have but one matter we can agree to disagree then, FP. Although generally, we agree on everything else...

Here's a great article in light of this recent event.

Note 1) There's been little to none that Obama had said or done before that I can agree with until I read the content in the article linked below.

Note 2) John McCain only solidified my opinion of him. Put that stooge out to pasture - PLEASE!

Note 3) Non-lethal support not only include MREs. Intelligence, reconnaisance, communication scramblers/jammers/interceptors, even *guidance missile scramblers* (which may or may not have altered many of the guidance missiles fired in this conflict that killed so many innocent folks. Russia have the same systems they used during the Shock and Awe bombardment of Baghdad). Just as I always knew and suspected. We were deeply involved in this conflict from day one.

Note 4) It was a Russian-made SA-11 that had most likely brought the Malaysian plane down.

Of significant notes:

>>President Barack Obama said he does not see an expanded U.S. military role —emphasizing instead that Europe take greater responsibility for its own security.<<

“We don’t see a U.S. military role beyond what we’ve already been doing in working with our NATO partners and some of the Baltic states, giving them reassurances that we are prepared to do whatever is required to meet our alliance obligations. This certainly will be a wake-up call for Europe and the world that there are consequences to an escalating conflict in eastern Ukraine, that it is not going to be localized, it is not going to be contained.”

“We don’t see a U.S. military role beyond what we’ve already been doing in working with our NATO partners and some of the Baltic states, giving them reassurances that we are prepared to do whatever is required to meet our alliance obligations,”

Our attempt to create a puppet regime failed miserably. We need to move on. Let us just now allow the Bidens to make their dough in peace.

“Direct talks between the opposing sides must be established as soon as possible. All sides in the conflict must swiftly halt fighting and begin peace negotiations. It is with great concern and sadness that we are watching what is happening in eastern Ukraine. It’s awful, it’s a tragedy.”

 

http://www.defenseone.com/threats/2014/07/obama-no-expanded-us-military-role-ukraine/89108/?oref=d-channelriver


Let's get the FCOK outta there!!!

[Boethius]

Putin's been saying the same thing all along.  But, when push comes to shove, he is nowhere to be found in using his influence (which he admits he has) with the terrorists.  Nor has he stopped Russian military and financial support to them.

[Faux Pas]

We have but one matter we can agree to disagree then, FP. Although generally, we agree on everything else...

Here's a great article in light of this recent event.

Note 1) There's been little to none that Obama had said or done before that I can agree with until I read the content in the article linked below.

Note 2) John McCain only solidified my opinion of him. Put that stooge out to pasture - PLEASE!

Note 3) Non-lethal support not only include MREs. Intelligence, reconnaisance, communication scramblers/jammers/interceptors, even *guidance missile scramblers* (which may or may not have altered many of the guidance missiles fired in this conflict that killed so many innocent folks. Russia have the same systems they used during the Shock and Awe bombardment of Baghdad). Just as I always knew and suspected. We were deeply involved in this conflict from day one.

Note 4) It was a Russian-made SA-11 that had most likely brought the Malaysian plane down.

Of significant notes:

>>President Barack Obama said he does not see an expanded U.S. military role —emphasizing instead that Europe take greater responsibility for its own security.<<
 

Our attempt to create a puppet regime failed miserably. We need to move on. Let us just now allow the Bidens to make their dough in peace.

 

http://www.defenseone.com/threats/2014/07/obama-no-expanded-us-military-role-ukraine/89108/?oref=d-channelriver


Let's get the FCOK outta there!!!

I tend to believe Putin at this point in time is a Europe problem. Thus, I'd agree with Barry on that point as well. He's much more of a threat to them than us. Barry needs to condemn him and call on Europe to correct their problem

GQ, you're sticking with the Nuland phone call as damming proof of U.S. involvement. I'm not buying it. I'm pretty sure the call happened and the context of the call would certainly raise a brow but, Nuland hasn't nor ever had the power or influence to make such a call as she claims in that call. Her description of money spent in Ukraine for democracy, to me, even sounds like a ruse. Sure, they "could" have been paying protesters. That I do not doubt there was "something" in the way of involvement but nothing as you seem to. The U.S. interferes all over the world as does a large number of other countries. The U.S. had no military or paid thugs in Ukraine. I'm not sure if causing civil unrest with American dollars is actually reaches the heights of involvement that you claim.

[jone]

I heard Nuland made the Maidan occupiers cookies.  That would certainly make me want to protest.  As for the illegality of the removal of the President, the constitution did not require a percentage vote to declare the office vacant.  Yanukovich skipped the country.  He vacated his office.  Slice it however anyone wants, he left the country and many of the votes by the Rada were UNANIMOUS.

Russia (probably permanently) altered the political landscape of Ukraine by invading and occupying Crimea.  The landscape will no longer support a Russian backed government.  By making those Crimean people 'Russian citizens' there is no longer even close to a plurality of Russian support in the country.

FP, I'm with you on this one.  There just isn't a smoking gun, as much as GQ would like to say there is.  The United States has no business being in Ukraine.   It is about time Europe acted like a European Union and moved directly in the face of the conflicted country that faces them, namely Russia.

[lordtiberius]

The United States has no business being in Ukraine.

Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.

John Adams, 'Argument in Defense of the Soldiers in the Boston Massacre Trials,' December 1770
US diplomat & politician (1735 - 1826)

[Gator]

Oh, how convenient for the Hawks that this terrorist act happened. Now they can get really Down and dirty in Ukraine and if they're real Lucky, even start a Nuclear war. The Citizens of the empire can wrap themselves in the flag and feel good about themselves for a while. At least until it really starts affecting their own lives in a very negative way.

I suggest you change to decaf coffee.  My God!  Where do you think this is the start of a nuclear war.  America in general and Obama in particular have no interest in engaging Russia militarily.  Nope, tougher sanctions will be the limit of America's response.  And even sanctions will be restyrained because a severe hit to the Russian economy would hurt the global economy and with that the American economy. 

"Now if only the Europeans will get in line"

Yeah, that's says a lot, that simple little sentence. Get those museum countries in the old world behind the exceptional People, right?

The lax attitude of EU countries has emboldened Putin to do whatever he wants to do without regard to what the international community may think.  He doesn't care.  EU needs to make him care.

Oh, don't you ever tire of all the Wars and greed? Agressive, afraid, greedy and hungry for ever more Power, to sum it up.

You are bouncing off the walls.  No coffee or tea for you, just water. 

[Shadow]

I heard Nuland made the Maidan occupiers cookies.  That would certainly make me want to protest.  As for the illegality of the removal of the President, the constitution did not require a percentage vote to declare the office vacant.  Yanukovich skipped the country.  He vacated his office.  Slice it however anyone wants, he left the country and many of the votes by the Rada were UNANIMOUS.

Russia (probably permanently) altered the political landscape of Ukraine by invading and occupying Crimea.  The landscape will no longer support a Russian backed government.  By making those Crimean people 'Russian citizens' there is no longer even close to a plurality of Russian support in the country.

FP, I'm with you on this one.  There just isn't a smoking gun, as much as GQ would like to say there is.  The United States has no business being in Ukraine.   It is about time Europe acted like a European Union and moved directly in the face of the conflicted country that faces them, namely Russia.

Europe is acting like the Uion it is. That means they are not out to wage war, but to prevent it.
That is single main reason why the EU was formed, to prevent a new World War in Europe.
So as much as the US is crying for war, the EU will attempt to keep peace as long a humanly possible.
Hate that as much as you wish.