Putin is No Hitler

[jone]

Europe is acting like the Uion it is. That means they are not out to wage war, but to prevent it.
That is single main reason why the EU was formed, to prevent a new World War in Europe.
So as much as the US is crying for war, the EU will attempt to keep peace as long a humanly possible.
Hate that as much as you wish.

Shadow,

You missed the point of my post.  I don't believe that the US is or should be involved.  I said nothing about hate.  Those are your words.  They seem to be coming out of your mouth quite frequently as of late.  I realize that this act of war, mainly against the people of your homeland and perpetrated by the self same separatists you have widely championed on this site must be gut wrenching for you.  You have my sympathy, as do the rest of your countrymen.

[BillyB]

the EU will attempt to keep peace as long a humanly possible.
Hate that as much as you wish.

Why is it in the last hundred years there's been numerous conflicts in Europe, including one now, and we in North America are safe? Many of those years Europe lived in peace and the wars ended  sooner than they should have was because America got involved in your affairs, not because you're peaceful people.
Hate that as much as you wish.

The EU cares about cheap Russian gas more than peace.

[Faux Pas]

Europe is acting like the Uion it is. That means they are not out to wage war, but to prevent it.
That is single main reason why the EU was formed, to prevent a new World War in Europe.
So as much as the US is crying for war, the EU will attempt to keep peace as long a humanly possible.
Hate that as much as you wish.

Outside of a few fanatics and John McCain (but I'm redundant) nobody in the U.S. is calling for war. With this president I can assure you U.S. involvement in Russia/UA isn't going to happen. I am quite dumbfounded though, on war being waged by Russia on your continent and your cavalier attitude toward it. The denials you have now won't stop Putin eyeballing the rest of Europe when he finishes with Ukraine. Very familiar when one reads through history books.

[Shadow]

Shadow,

You missed the point of my post.  I don't believe that the US is or should be involved.  I said nothing about hate.  Those are your words.  They seem to be coming out of your mouth quite frequently as of late.  I realize that this act of war, mainly against the people of your homeland and perpetrated by the self same separatists you have widely championed on this site must be gut wrenching for you.  You have my sympathy, as do the rest of your countrymen.

I did not say the US is involved in this post or matter, as for hate I am merely showing how posts from many come across.
As for what happened, I will not describe it as an act of war until there is evidence that anyone (regarless whom it may be) has targeted the passenger plane knowingly and willingly.
Until then it is very likely that this is an unfortunate collision of circumstances, where not a single party involved in the conflict is guilty or free of guilt.

[Shadow]

Why is it in the last hundred years there's been numerous conflicts in Europe, including one now, and we in North America are safe? Many of those years Europe lived in peace and the wars ended  sooner than they should have was because America got involved in your affairs, not because you're peaceful people.
Hate that as much as you wish.

The EU cares about cheap Russian gas more than peace.

The 2000 years before it was not different on the European continent, nor on the North American continents with exception of the conquering of it by European immigrants. Americans are mostly Europeans, with all bad and good habits.
That is probably why they still want to meddle in European affairs.

[Shadow]

Outside of a few fanatics and John McCain (but I'm redundant) nobody in the U.S. is calling for war. With this president I can assure you U.S. involvement in Russia/UA isn't going to happen. I am quite dumbfounded though, on war being waged by Russia on your continent and your cavalier attitude toward it. The denials you have now won't stop Putin eyeballing the rest of Europe when he finishes with Ukraine. Very familiar when one reads through history books.

The point is that people are trying to sell this as a deliberate act. And I have not seen any proof of that (or of the contrary).
So instead of believing any of the propaganda machines, how about waiting until it becomes clear where the rocket was fired from, what it was targeting and why it was not aborted.
As far as a war by Russia, you might want to be careful in using such terms.

[Boethius]

Outside of a few fanatics and John McCain (but I'm redundant) nobody in the U.S. is calling for war. With this president I can assure you U.S. involvement in Russia/UA isn't going to happen. I am quite dumbfounded though, on war being waged by Russia on your continent and your cavalier attitude toward it. The denials you have now won't stop Putin eyeballing the rest of Europe when he finishes with Ukraine. Very familiar when one reads through history books.

On the topic, an interesting report from a Canadian paper, which is largely pro conservative -


http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/07/18/where-is-barack-obama-conflict-spreads-as-the-u-s-steps-back-from-world-stage/

[Boethius]

The point is that people are trying to sell this as a deliberate act. And I have not seen any proof of that (or of the contrary).

It was definitely a deliberate act to shoot down a plane.  I believe it was the terrorists.  I also believe they thought the plane was a Ukrainian plane, not a civilian airliner.  Right now, they are hampering the investigation, and looting the site.

[jone]

I did not say the US is involved in this post or matter, as for hate I am merely showing how posts from many come across.
As for what happened, I will not describe it as an act of war until there is evidence that anyone (regarless whom it may be) has targeted the passenger plane knowingly and willingly.
Until then it is very likely that this is an unfortunate collision of circumstances, where not a single party involved in the conflict is guilty or free of guilt.

All of those people on the plane were innocent.  Do you realize how ridiculous you sound?  "Unfortunate collision of circumstances?"  Get your head out of your behind!

Thank goodness your government doesn't think like you do.  I remember well them blocking a certain Balkan country from joining the EU until that country handed over a general who had committed atrocities against a Dutch peacekeeping group.

This is plain and simple 'maskirovka' or masked war.  The Dutch know it.  The European Union knows it.  Now the whole world knows it.  Everyone but you, Shadow. 

[lordtiberius]

Looters look for credit cards and jewelry.

[Shadow]

It was definitely a deliberate act to shoot down a plane.  I believe it was the terrorists.  I also believe they thought the plane was a Ukrainian plane, not a civilian airliner.  Right now, they are hampering the investigation, and looting the site.

Apart from the label terrorists we agree on the most likely scenario.

[Faux Pas]

The point is that people are trying to sell this as a deliberate act. And I have not seen any proof of that (or of the contrary).
So instead of believing any of the propaganda machines, how about waiting until it becomes clear where the rocket was fired from, what it was targeting and why it was not aborted.
As far as a war by Russia, you might want to be careful in using such terms.

Intentional, deliberate or not makes no different to the 298 innocents that perished because of Putin's aggression. Who or what shadow, do you expect to shine the light and make things "clear" on where the rocket was fired from? I'll wager you now that you'll not have any clearer picture than you do at this minute. The longer this tarries on, the muddier it is going to become. There is a reason the separatists are keeping the investigators away from the wreckage. Please get back to me in 6 months and enlighten me on where the rocket came from.

On the topic, an interesting report from a Canadian paper, which is largely pro conservative -


http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/07/18/where-is-barack-obama-conflict-spreads-as-the-u-s-steps-back-from-world-stage/

That is certainly on point and pretty accurate as I see it.

[Shadow]

All of those people on the plane were innocent.  Do you realize how ridiculous you sound?  "Unfortunate collision of circumstances?"  Get your head out of your behind!

Thank goodness your government doesn't think like you do.  I remember well them blocking a certain Balkan country from joining the EU until that country handed over a general who had committed atrocities against a Dutch peacekeeping group.

This is plain and simple 'maskirovka' or masked war.  The Dutch know it.  The European Union knows it.  Now the whole world knows it.  Everyone but you, Shadow.

The people in MH370 which disappeared were innocent as well. As for my government so far they follow the exact same point of view, that an investigation should bring forward the exact happenings and based on that it will be decided what further actions is needed.
Shoot first, ask questions later is exactly what caused this.

[Boethius]

That is certainly on point and pretty accurate as I see it.

I find it rather ironic.  So many protest at the U.S. being the "word's policeman" yet, when it steps back, it is criticized for allowing chaos to reign.

[Shadow]

Intentional, deliberate or not makes no different to the 298 innocents that perished because of Putin's aggression. Who or what shadow, do you expect to shine the light and make things "clear" on where the rocket was fired from? I'll wager you now that you'll not have any clearer picture than you do at this minute. The longer this tarries on, the muddier it is going to become. There is a reason the separatists are keeping the investigators away from the wreckage. Please get back to me in 6 months and enlighten me on where the rocket came from.

You are also blinded by the propaganda that tries to benefit from the incident.
One of the questions you may wish to ask is why the airspace was left open by the Ukrainian government if they now see it as war zone.
There are more, but I do not want to go in to speculations nor in to far-fetched conspiracy theories. And believe me the alufoil production is soaring right now.

[Shadow]

I find it rather ironic.  So many protest at the U.S. being the "word's policeman" yet, when it steps back, it is criticized for allowing chaos to reign.

Same happened to Yanukovich in a way 

[Boethius]

One of the questions you may wish to ask is why the airspace was left open by the Ukrainian government if they now see it as war zone.

According to all I've read from experts interviewed, commercial aircraft were flying over the region daily.  There were four other commercial aircraft in that region at the time of the tragedy.


Commercial aircraft have codes which identify them as civilian.  They also fly at a height whereby they'd be safe from the missiles the terrorists were known to have. 

[Faux Pas]

I find it rather ironic.  So many protest at the U.S. being the "word's policeman" yet, when it steps back, it is criticized for allowing chaos to reign.

I could not agree more. I am in favor of stepping away and letting the world, the Dutch and everyone else deal with their own problems. That has been the cry of the world for the last 25 or so years. I would prefer that the U.S. do that from a position or power rather than the current cowering down by this administration. That only enables and emboldens the Putins and ISIS of the world

[Faux Pas]

You are also blinded by the propaganda that tries to benefit from the incident.
One of the questions you may wish to ask is why the airspace was left open by the Ukrainian government if they now see it as war zone.
There are more, but I do not want to go in to speculations nor in to far-fetched conspiracy theories. And believe me the alufoil production is soaring right now.

Perhaps I am blinded shadow but, it would be from my ability to deduce and think logically about those events rather than sucking up the slop the propaganda are pouring in the feed troughs.

You never did answer the question however, which entity or tribunal do you expect to make the events clearer that even you can understand?

[Faux Pas]

According to all I've read from experts interviewed, commercial aircraft were flying over the region daily.  There were four other commercial aircraft in that region at the time of the tragedy.


Commercial aircraft have codes which identify them as civilian.  They also fly at a height whereby they'd be safe from the missiles the terrorists were known to have.

The radar would also identify a commercial flight. Anything flying at 33K isn't a threat below. Especially in that region. Why the airliner was hit and whether it was a mistake would likely depend on the tracking system they used. The missile is given a target and that target and tracking can change up until the missile is made hot then, the missile is on it's own. There is no aborting or undoing it at that point

[jone]

The radar would also identify a commercial flight. Anything flying at 33K isn't a threat below. Especially in that region. Why the airliner was hit and whether it was a mistake would likely depend on the tracking system they used. The missile is given a target and that target and tracking can change up until the missile is made hot then, the missile is on it's own. There is no aborting or undoing it at that point

You sure about that?  My understanding was that the operator guides the (BUK) missile onto the target and has control.  I could be wrong.

[Shadow]

Perhaps I am blinded shadow but, it would be from my ability to deduce and think logically about those events rather than sucking up the slop the propaganda are pouring in the feed troughs.

You never did answer the question however, which entity or tribunal do you expect to make the events clearer that even you can understand?

The propaganda speaks of an act of war. So you agree that it is too early for that label?
As for the question, as far as I know there are special air crash investigators who, hopefully helped by experts on the possibly used weapon system, can determine what happened.
While the outcome seems obvious, it still needs to be investigated.

[Shadow]

The radar would also identify a commercial flight. Anything flying at 33K isn't a threat below. Especially in that region. Why the airliner was hit and whether it was a mistake would likely depend on the tracking system they used. The missile is given a target and that target and tracking can change up until the missile is made hot then, the missile is on it's own. There is no aborting or undoing it at that point

The height would not matter to an operator expecting it to be a spy plane.

Below the line some, mostly ridiculous, conspiracy theories. I clearly state that I do not support or believe them, just in case anyone would try to accuse me of the opposite.
1. Commercial flights over the region are fitted with US spying equipment. The BUK detected this, which is why the plane was targeted.
2. At the same time of flight MH17 another Malaysian Airlines plane left from Amsterdam. This was the plane and the remains of the former flight MH370. The bodies found were already decayed.
3. All people of whom the passports were said to be found opened a Facebook account a day before the flight.

[Boethius]

Interesting piece in the NYT about an early encounter with Putin -


http://mobile.nytimes.com/2014/07/20/opinion/sunday/protecting-russians-in-ukraine-has-deadly-consequences.html?referrer

[Chelseaboy]

Shadow,

          I'm sure you're well aware of your countries outrage at the total lack of respect shown toward the 298 dead passengers by the very same Pro-russian separatists who's cause you have been championing.

Looks like some of us are not as stupid as you've been calling us..and maybe you need to re-evaluate your defence of those criminals.