Putin is No Hitler

[Boethius]

That is actually a very good question and would be interesting to know.
However, I wouldn't take Boethius' 50% at face value even though her speculation is somewhat presented as fact.

My wife said when they had a referendum there, more than 90% voted for more autonomy.

As Gator pointed out, the referendum was flawed.  One region had 123% turnout.  40% of the population boycotted the referendum.  Non resident ethnic Russians were allowed to vote (reported by an independent Russian newspaper, whose correspondent came from Russia to report).  Nevertheless, I personally am perturbed by Crimea changing hands, although the method it was achieved is disgusting and illegal. 

All polls, at all times, conducted by independent think tanks state that the majority of the populaces of Luhansk and Donetsk wanted to remain in UKraine.  The last one was done in March of this year.  The 50% number is within the Donetsk "triangle" (now, with Ukraine expelling the terrorists from some regions, it is no longer a triangle), and comes from those living in the region, so it is, I admit, anecdotal.  I would hazard a guess that, if anything, it is overstated in favour of the terrorists.

[Boethius]

You mean the US backed junta who will Ensure Ukrainians get austerity forever to pay back those IMF loans? And who would like to do some ethnic cleansing of Russians in Ukraine, whereever they can find them. Remember Odessa?

The notion that ethnic Russians would be expelled from the region is absurd, and anyone who believes this Russian media propaganda is not thinking.  The Rada and the presidency are controlled by politicians who were in power in the past, there are various ethnicities in the Rada.  Even Praviy Sekhtor's leader states everyone is welcome in Ukraine, as long as they support Ukraine's independence.

Now let's go to the Odesa tragedy.  There was a joint march of football supporters before the game.  There were paid thugs among them, on both sides.  Pro Russian supporters attacked the marchers, throwing rocks and hitting them with bats.  The police stood by doing nothing.  It has since been alleged the police chief was a pro Russian supporter, and gave orders for the police to stand aside.

Supporters, inflamed, decided to destroy the tent city of the pro Russian activists.  Some pro Russian activists had taken refuge in the trade union building, and some fled there.  Both sides threw molotov cocktails at each other, some of which caused the fire.  A shooter, since identified as an ethnic Russian (gun for hire, now allegedly dead) prevented people from leaving the building.  Some innocents, trying to escape the violence, were also trapped in the building.

So, this was not some attempt to kill ethnic Russians even if Russian media presents it that way.  It is very tied to the events of that day.  Here is a UN report on the tragedy, prepared by observers who witnessed the event -

http://www.ohchr.org/Documents/Countries/UA/HRMMUReport15June2014.pdf

[Boethius]

Let's examine the "separatist" leaders.

Igor Girkin (Strelkov) - A Moscow native, who commands the terrorists.  He is a retired colonel of the FSB who "retired" in March of 2014.  He has ties to the GRU, which is Russia's military intelligence unit.

Alexander Borodai - self appointed "prime minister" of the Donetsk People's Republic.  Borodai is from Moscow.  He was a journalist for the ultranationalist paper Zavtra.  In 2002, Pravda reported that Borodai had been appointed a deputy director of the FSB.

http://www.pravda.ru/news/politics/27-07-2002/837334-0/

Vladimr Antiufeev - "vice premier" of the "DPR" for internal affiars.  Antiufeev was the commander of internal affairs in Latvia (remember when protesters were beaten to death with baseball bats?  - that was under Antiufeev's command).   As head of internal affairs, he attempted to prevent the Latvian government's declaration of independence.  As a result, an arrest warrant was issued by the Latvian government.  Antiufeev fled to Moscow, and was soon head of security services for Transnistria.  He was known for this ruthlessness there, and fled to Moscow in 2012, after a failed assassination attempt.

So, for those who see no hand of Moscow in events, explain to me how this is war is an indigenous movement.  It is funded and directed by Moscow.  The propaganda on the airwaves of the region emanate from Russia.  This is about destabilizing Ukraine, pure and simple.

[Gator]

 Here is a UN report on the tragedy, prepared by observers who witnessed the event -[/font]

http://www.ohchr.org/Documents/Countries/UA/HRMMUReport15June2014.pdf

The report has much substance.  It mentions the goals of the Ukrainian parliament to build a democratic Ukraine with peaceful coexistence of all, featuring decentralization of power,  special status for Russian language, etc.

[Gator]

Let's examine the "separatist" leaders.

Igor Girkin (Strelkov).....Alexander Borodai....Vladimr Antiufeev

Not only do they have ties to Moscow, their professional experience has been with FSB in nefarious if not violent assignments.  They are not peaceful statesmen.

[Boethius]

The terrorists steal from Medecins Sans Frontieres.

http://maidantranslations.com/2014/07/20/doctors-without-borders-office-in-donetsk-smashed-and-humanitarian-aid-stolen-threatening-delivery-of-further-humanitarian-aid/

[Boethius]

Proof of the "overwhelming support" for the terrorists in Luhansk oblast -

The mechanic of the An-26 transport plane shot down by terrorists in Luhansk Oblast on July 14 was saved from the terrorists by local people, the Minister of Defense Valeriy Heletei wrote in his Facebook, July 19, reports Ukrainska Pravda.

“One of the members of the crew of An-26 that was treacherously shot down by Russian mercenaries in the Ukrainian sky has been saved. The mechanic of the An-26 plane was not taken prisoner, but with the help of caring people was saved, hidden from the gang of terrorists and eventually transferred to a safe area,” he wrote.

According to Heletei, on July 14, communication with the Air Force plane An-26, which was providing air transport support services for ATO (antiterrorist operation), was cut off at 12:30. At the time the plane was at the height of 6500m. Subsequently several crew members of the downed plane established contact with the General Staff.

“There was  conflicting information about the member of the Armed Forces of Ukraine. The worst was information that this courageous man was supposedly captured. This military man is now safe,” Heletei stated.

As previously reported, two aviators of the An-26 shot down on Monday, July 14, were captured by terrorists and the fate of the other six as of Tuesday morning, July 15,  was unknown. Subsequently it was reported that four crew members had been rescued by ATO forces.
The head of the Security Service of Ukraine (SBU) Valentyn Nalyvaichenko said that the SBU has irrefutable evidence that the An-26 was struck by Russian military forces.

http://euromaidanpress.com/2014/07/19/crew-member-of-downed-ukrainian-plane-saved-by-locals/

[Anotherkiwi]

Deployment of BUKs in the conflict zone is a fact. See 0:53

Not necessarily - it's easy enough to film them somewhere else and then edit the videos.  However, I'm inclined to agree with you that they ARE (or were) in the area - who controls them is a different story.

Rebels have no  aircraft, but they claim they have. There is an obsession among Ukrainian military that russian fighters are shooting down their bombers. They also pretend that russian army is going to invade at any moment.

They've already had at least two (three?) planes shot down, so I think that they're right to be worried.

I don't understand why transport plane could not fly high to avoid anti-aircraft missiles. Rebels already shot down two transports. They have no good technical means to control airspace, they just try to shot any flying object over head. Rebels announced they seized BUK but ukrainian govenment decided to ignore this threat for airplanes in the war zone.

Of course they could fly higher, but that would make it very difficult to land easily.  They can't risk flying into Russian airspace, which they might do if they have to approach Luhansk from the east (because of the wind direction on the ground) at 10,000 metres high.  Optimum glide paths are not set for planes landing from that height, and it would be a fairly nerve-wracking descent for a cargo transport!

Also, what can the rebels possibly gain from shooting down a civilian airliner?  If I can tell an airliner from the ground without binoculars or a military gunsight, it beggars belief that the rebels can't do the same.  It should have been very obvious to whoever fired the weapon that the plane was too high to be anything but an airliner, especially as it was continuing on the same flight path and not losing height to land at any nearby airport.

[BillyB]

what can the rebels possibly gain from shooting down a civilian airliner?  If I can tell an airliner from the ground without binoculars or a military gunsight, it beggars belief that the rebels can't do the same.

Why assume eyesight was used to target the airliner? The BUK system doesn't rely on target by eyesight as do RPGS. It's possible the plane may have not been seen by the human eye before the missiles were fired. Russian radar was most likely used to identify and target the airliner. It's not perfect. Not even America's radar is perfect. We once downed a civilian airliner after mistaking it to be an incoming hostile fighter jet.

[calmissile]

Why assume eyesight was used to target the airliner? The BUK system doesn't rely on target by eyesight as do RPGS. It's possible the plane may have not been seen by the human eye before the missiles were fired. Russian radar was most likely used to identify and target the airliner. It's not perfect. Not even America's radar is perfect. We once downed a civilian airliner after mistaking it to be an incoming hostile fighter jet.

There are a few loose ends that have not yet come out to the public.
1.  The route of the flight was approved by the European Air Traffic Control agency before it ever left the ground.  The flight was above the restricted airspace over Ukraine.  The question not answered is whether the pilots requested routing around the reported thunderstorm to the South.
2.  A report indicated that MH17 was about to be handed off to Russian Air Traffic Control, since the route takes it over Russian airspace.  If this is true, then the Russian Air Traffic Control system would have been tracking the plane for some time including its assigned transponder ID code.  In any case, the Russian defense and Air Traffic Control System knew it was a civilian airliner on an assigned flight route.
3.  Knowing that this was a civilian airliner, did the Russian government provide any communication to the terrorists in Ukraine that were operating the SAM system?  Russia could have warned the terrorists that this was a civilian aircraft, or at least indicate it is not a Ukrainian military plane.

I suspect that NATO, Ukraine and US intelligence has a lot of information that will be produced at a more beneficial time for the world to see.  Remember that the Navy version of AWACS has been monitoring all airspace in the region.  All raw data is recorded and hopefully can provide more information about all of the Ukraine aircraft shot down recently.

[fathertime]

Also, what can the rebels possibly gain from shooting down a civilian airliner?

Assuming it was the Separatists that shot it down, they gained nothing but problems for doing it...clearly an error and a bad one at that. 


If a nation's security is of concern they better damn well prepare themselves and not rely on other nation's like the USA to 'save the day'...those days ended a while back...and I don't see a new president in 2016 having a mandate from the people to start intervening globally, unless there is a genuine US concern involved.


In addition to the 300 dead, it gives fuel to the people that would like to see other nations join in, which I continue to believe would be a grave error....and lead to Russia choosing to invade.  Like they said in The Godfather II, 'it is between the brothers'...so let them sort it out. 














Fathertime!

[Boethius]

Assuming it was the Separatists that shot it down, they gained nothing but problems for doing it...clearly an error and a bad one at that. 

Talk about obtuse!  Of course the terrorists shot it down.  There are recordings of them discussing the target.  There is satellite evidence of the missile being brought across the border from Russia, of it being fired, and of the remaining missiles being transferred back across the border.


Ukraine has no missiles in that region, it did not "lose" missiles, and it had no reason to have missiles there, as the terrorists have no planes.  So, the only place that missile could have come from is Russia, and it could only have been fired by the terrorists or by Russia.


The fact the terrorists control the crash site, that they have not allowed European observers access, have removed evidence, and have basically desecrated the graves of the dead tells you what animals these former FSB/GRU are.

[fathertime]

Talk about obtuse!  Of course the terrorists shot it down.  There are recordings of them discussing the target.  There is satellite evidence of the missile being brought across the border from Russia, of it being fired, and of the remaining missiles being transferred back across the border.


Ukraine has no missiles in that region, it did not "lose" missiles, and it had no reason to have missiles there, as the terrorists have no planes.  So, the only place that missile could have come from is Russia, and it could only have been fired by the terrorists or by Russia.


The fact the terrorists control the crash site, that they have not allowed European observers access, have removed evidence, and have basically desecrated the graves of the dead tells you what animals these former FSB/GRU are.

  If it pleases you, you may call what I said obtuse, but I think you are just being a little defensive for some reason, as I mentioned I thought it was probably the Russian Separatists. 


What you say may be correct...but you are still stating things as if they are fact...how do you know for sure nobody lost a missile?  I'm not really interested in the discussion about who did it, because it appears the Russian Separatists did do it so what more can be said on that subject between us..,they probably weren't framed, but as I mentioned I don't have much trust in governments anymore so to me anything is possible, I'll always have a small measure of unimportant skepticism, unless I actually saw a video showing what happened from start to finish....but like I said, i don't think they were framed, they probably made the error all on their own.  But it is still a matter between the brothers. 


Fathertime!     

[AC]

  If it pleases you, you may call what I said obtuse, but I think you are just being a little defensive for some reason, as I mentioned I thought it was probably the Russian Separatists. 


What you say may be correct...but you are still stating things as if they are fact...how do you know for sure nobody lost a missile?  I'm not really interested in the discussion about who did it, because it appears the Russian Separatists did do it...

Fathertime!   

If Ukraine had been the one who fired the missile, then the Russian separatists would have turned over the missile remnants once they found them, instead of sending them back to Russia as they no doubt did.  The remnants of that missile have information indicating where it was manufactured, etc.  Obviously because the separatists have been controlling the crash site and preventing a real investigation, they have been destroying evidence.  If, as Putin claimed the fault was with Ukraine, then they would have gleefully showed that evidence; but instead they've either destroyed it already or shipped it back to Russia to be destroyed.

[fathertime]

If Ukraine had been the one who fired the missile, then the Russian separatists would have turned over the missile remnants once they found them, instead of sending them back to Russia as they no doubt did.  The remnants of that missile have information indicating where it was manufactured, etc.  Obviously because the separatists have been controlling the crash site and preventing a real investigation, they have been destroying evidence.  If, as Putin claimed the fault was with Ukraine, then they would have gleefully showed that evidence; but instead they've either destroyed it already or shipped it back to Russia to be destroyed.

Hey AC, as I mentioned I do think it was probably Russian Separatists that fired the missile....although if somebody were framing somebody else, they would have to do it properly and take care of all of the types of things to make sure the trail led back to the framed party....doesn't seem likely in this case as the Separatists were knocking other aircraft outta the sky too. 


Fathertime!   

[Boethius]

What you say may be correct...but you are still stating things as if they are fact...how do you know for sure nobody lost a missile?  I'm not really interested in the discussion about who did it, because it appears the Russian Separatists did do it so what more can be said on that subject between us..,they probably weren't framed, but as I mentioned I don't have much trust in governments anymore so to me anything is possible, I'll always have a small measure of unimportant skepticism, unless I actually saw a video showing what happened from start to finish....but like I said, i don't think they were framed, they probably made the error all on their own.  But it is still a matter between the brothers. 


Fathertime!   

Because the Ukrainians removed all the missiles from that region, long before this tragedy.

[fathertime]

Because the Ukrainians removed all the missiles from that region, long before this tragedy.

but that alone doesn't mean anything....what you mentioned is not a fact although it was stated as one. 


Fathertime!   

[Boethius]

It is easily verifiable. 


Why do I get the feeling that in 1943, you would have denied the existence of Dachau?

[AC]

but that alone doesn't mean anything....what you mentioned is not a fact although it was stated as one. 


Fathertime!

Actually it does mean something, as the pro-Russian separatists do not have any aircraft which Ukrainian forces would need to attempt to shoot at.  All Ukrainian BUK missile systems can be accounted for.  Those are both facts. 

There is essentially a movie, a classified one, which has been made for heads of State, to prove precisely what happened.  Satellite images show the BUK missile systems being brought from Russia to Snizhne, Ukraine.  Satellite images show them being fired from there.  Satellite images as well as video, show them being taken back to Russia.  Voice intercepts of the Russian commander and other Russian Intel types were captured and have been verified as authentic.

Honest soldiers do not deliberately contaminate a crash zone (in this case a crime scene) and move and destroy evidence.  That is something done by thug mercenaries from Russia with a lot to hide.

[fathertime]

It is easily verifiable. 


Why do I get the feeling that in 1943, you would have denied the existence of Dachau?

What is verifiable? That missiles were removed?  What difference does that make?  That doesn't make it a fact that NO missile were ever lost.  Again, if you state something as a fact to build a case, it needs to be a fact...in this case it is not a fact, but a strong and perhaps biased opinion.   


Dachau is not the subject... bringing that into the discussion is more grandstanding.

Actually it does mean something, as the pro-Russian separatists do not have any aircraft which Ukrainian forces would need to attempt to shoot at.  All Ukrainian BUK missile systems can be accounted for.  Those are both facts. 

The Russian Separatists do not have aircraft, but that doesn't mean that a Ukrainian missile couldn't possibly be missing.   My objection was Boethius loose use of 'facts' which can't be  verified by anybody who doesn't have a serious dog in the result being a certain way.  As far as who shot the missile, It appears the Russian Separatists did, but I've learned to leave some room for a small measure of in this case unimportant doubt.   


Fathertime!   

[AC]

Fathertime,

If a Ukrainian missile was missing from a Ukrainian owned BUK missile system, this would already be known as the pro-Russian separatists, who take their orders from Moscow, would have found it and revealed it to the world.  All of those weapons systems have very precise serial numbers and other ID data.  A system that elaborate simply does not just go missing without a lot of people knowing about it.  You've possibly been reading a few conspiracy theories, no?

The BUK missile system which was fired was picked up by satellite as being fired from Snizhne, Ukraine near the Russian border, a small city controlled by pro-Russian separatists. 

[Boethius]

What is verifiable? That missiles were removed?  What difference does that make?  That doesn't make it a fact that NO missile were ever lost.  Again, if you state something as a fact to build a case, it needs to be a fact...in this case it is not a fact, but a strong and perhaps biased opinion.   


Dachau is not the subject... bringing that into the discussion is more grandstanding.

The Russian Separatists do not have aircraft, but that doesn't mean that a Ukrainian missile couldn't possibly be missing.   My objection was Boethius loose use of 'facts' which can't be  verified by anybody who doesn't have a serious dog in the result being a certain way.  As far as who shot the missile, It appears the Russian Separatists did, but I've learned to leave some room for a small measure of in this case unimportant doubt.   


Fathertime!

Ukraine has an SPO for removal of missiles from its bases.  Furthermore, missiles are not on every base.  There is no way the separatists could have ever gained access to a Ukrainian missile.  No one is even alleging that, other than Russia propaganda organs.


Now, why do you think the terrorists are not allowing independent European observers access to the crash site, while allowing locals and Western journalists to traipse through the site?  Do you think it is possibly because they know that missile fragments will identify the source, so they are trying to remove them?  They have even refused to release bodies.


Of course Dachau is not the subject.  Your obtuseness, in the light of compelling evidence, the grasping of straws when all logic and evidence points to but once conclusion, is the subject.

[fathertime]

Ukraine has an SPO for removal of missiles from its bases.  Furthermore, missiles are not on every base.  There is no way the separatists could have ever gained access to a Ukrainian missile. No one is even alleging that, other than Russia propaganda organs.

 

Nor was I, but it is still not a fact, which is the way you presented it to build your argument.  Faulty foundation if you are trusting an admittedly corrupt govt as your trusted verifier!   

 


Of course Dachau is not the subject.  Your obtuseness, in the light of compelling evidence, the grasping of straws when all logic and evidence points to but once conclusion, is the subject.

You are the one who brought up Dachau, not me!   Your version of logic, appears to have serious biases so I don't mind being 'obtuse' if  that means I don't accept what you SAY as fact, unless of course it actually is a fact.


Fathertime!     

[GQBlues]

I interrupt this weekend's display of tired gyrations, bold speculations and mind-numbing ramblings...so that I can reply back to FP.

**********************************************************************************************

.....GQ, you're sticking with the Nuland phone call as damming proof of U.S. involvement. I'm not buying it. I'm pretty sure the call happened and the context of the call would certainly raise a brow but, Nuland hasn't nor ever had the power or influence to make such a call as she claims in that call. Her description of money spent in Ukraine for democracy, to me, even sounds like a ruse. Sure, they "could" have been paying protesters. That I do not doubt there was "something" in the way of involvement but nothing as you seem to. The U.S. interferes all over the world as does a large number of other countries. The U.S. had no military or paid thugs in Ukraine. I'm not sure if causing civil unrest with American dollars is actually reaches the heights of involvement that you claim.

Do a little exercise and ask yourself...since 1989/1990, exactly how many countries/conflict we have been engaged in vs Russia? How many regimes have changed in our world since then that we, or Russia, have been complicit with? Scan the world, use Google - search in Africa, South American, Asia, Middle East,  Europe. It's a very easy drill to  do. I GUARANTEE you, you'll come up with U-S-A dominating that silly scoreboard.

Nuland is nothing but a glorified, overpaid gofer in the same fold as Susan Rice, Samantha Power, Madeline Albright, & Janet Reno. If you believe I solely bank my belief on the tapped phonecall, despite the overwhelming information contained therein, you're sadly mistaken. It's not like I'm the kind of guy who'll lay guilt on the shooting of the commercial plane solely on  the 'intercepted' video conversation you know...what kind of sexy dude you think I am?

 

BTW, phones are no longer *tapped* these days, man. That's so 20th century...

You tell me you think that phone tap isn't enough of an evidence of our complicity in Ukraine, yet you believe circumstantial evidence we thus far have on this tragic event - are? I bet you also believed Russia's complicity with Bashar gassing his folks just like we accused them of, right?

Yeah, remember the allegations of Syrian troops gassing their civilians? LOL. Obama's stupid Redline? If you don't know what the ultimate revelation on that US-led allegations, you owe it to yourself to look deeper into it. Have you read the end result of the investigation reports filed by Syria, USA, France & the UK?

Bet you didn't, did you?

Bashar Al Assad, had he been found 'guilty', he would've met the same fate Milosevic, Saddam, Qadaffi et al...Dead man walking, I tell yah! Greed and power isn't just the bad guys' addiction, man. Syria would likely be led by someone we like by now...

- Do you even know we are *actively* involved in Africa as we speak (don't bother Googling, it's supposed to be classified)? You don't, do you?
- Do you know why BP/Shell pulled out of the US gas business early this year? You don't, do you?
- Did you understand, or was privileged to have read, Obama's speech during April's TTIP summit in Belgium? You didn't, did you? Take the time...
- Obama promised heaven, but no one's buying it, FP. Largely why we are alone in the sanction business against Russia, bruddah. Europeans aren't stupid. They're freshly whipped from the Syrian debacle. But who knows. Maybe this latest theatrics in Ukraine may afford us a bit of European sanction arm-twisting even for a little while.

I really do wish the very best for the Ukrainians (Ukrainians and ethnic-Russians et al) man, I really do. They're going to fcoking need it regardless on the aftermath of this US-made coup. We really did a fine mess on that country, LOL. What Obama couldn't do in Syria, he's tried hard in Ukraine.

Washington Post reported earlier that the US had already confirmed that Russia is responsible for supplying the weaponry that downed the plane.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/ukranian-officials-accuse-rebel-militias-of-moving-bodies-tampering-with-evidence/2014/07/19/bef07204-0f1c-11e4-b8e5-d0de80767fc2_story.html

" The United States has confirmed that Russia supplied sophisticated missile launchers to separatists in eastern Ukraine and that attempts were made to move them back across the Russian border after the Thursday shoot-down of a Malaysian jet liner, a U.S. official said Saturday.

“We do believe they were trying to move back into Russia at least three Buk [missile launch] systems,” the official said. U.S. intelligence was “starting to get indications . . . a little more than a week ago” that the Russian launchers had been moved into Ukraine, said the official.

The official’s comments, made on condition of anonymity to speak about intelligence matters, came as a top Ukrainian counterintelligence official said his service has conclusive proof that Russia supplied the missile that shot down Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 over territory controlled by the separatists...."

LOL. Read the following report very closely and tell me if you find it a bit *weird*.

This anonymous 'US Official' should've been a bit smarter than the *intelligence* they have in the field (gotta be a bunch of old farts looking for wives, or the agents previously commissioned in Colombia) because if they knew the equipment was being moved *a little more than a week ago*, why not alert Ukraine aviation to ban civilian flights over Ukraine? Like maybe A-S-A-P. Methinks they have ample time, yes?

Did you see the photograph and the video Kiev used as evidence that Russia supplied the rebels the weaponry that shot the plane down? Google it, man. The video is on youtube and the pics online. Apparently they were really convincing. The video showed it travelling on an open 'road'. LOL. The picture displayed the launcher on top of a transport semi with no escort. LOL. The army of Grandma Q and her sisters of mercy would've had no problem stopping that convoy! LOL. Seriously, if you saw your enemy moving such a heavy weaponry on an open road without escort, what would YOU do? LOL.

I can only hope that that final *evidence* will be a lot more conclusive than the one we had about Syria gassing his people....

Listen FP, without citing your inclusion, for the most part I have taken into consideration this hall is largely comprised of men involved in the MOB. So despite the popular belief in these fora, Trust me on this, the use of logic does not hurt. I know better than to believe the US' interest in Ukraine, and even Russia, isn't isolated in providing a haven for a lot of our retirees to pretty ladies....pfizer must be racking in the dough these days, no?

Anyway, my deepest sympathy for all those who perished in this tragic event, as I do all those who survived them. Unfortunately, regime changes are tragic affairs for the many.

Me, I can never take the word of a man who told all of us and the world that the Libyan embassy fiasco was because of a video. ? Hell, 2.5 years after, you and I and the rest of the Americans are still without an explanation to what really happened with that tragedy..

Strange world, man..

But listen, I am still star and spangled all over, man. Make no mistake about it. Despite knowing my Lakers will only be good as 30 games, tops, next year. I've learned to take the bad with the good, both with my team and my country. And you're right about one thing, everyone in our world is doing it, so why not we, right? When all is said and done, there's comfort siding with the guy with the biggest bat after all...

Last note: For everyone - maybe it's a good idea to actually *wait* for the final result of the investigation before you folks drool all over each other and yourselves? It really looks (reads) pretty #@#! funny to lay witness to a bunch of people foaming at the mouths all weekend long with obviously nothing else to do...LOL!

****************************************************************************

I now return you to your regularly scheduled ramblings...

 

[GQBlues]

Go ahead.  There is a full report by AI, but it is unavailable currently.


Please ensure your stories are from an independent source, such as AI, and that they outline the atrocities of the current government.  Not militias.

Really? Does AI have the stories about the night raids conducted in Afghanistan by US forces and the murder of hundreds of Afghan civilians?