Putin is No Hitler

[Boethius]

I would assume so.  They had many reports, even before Abu Ghraib, on US malfeasance in Iraq.


Amnesty International is not known for being particularly "U.S. friendly". 

[Muzh]

Assuming it was the Separatists that shot it down, they gained nothing but problems for doing it...clearly an error and a bad one at that. 


If a nation's security is of concern they better damn well prepare themselves and not rely on other nation's like the USA to 'save the day'...those days ended a while back...and I don't see a new president in 2016 having a mandate from the people to start intervening globally, unless there is a genuine US concern involved.


In addition to the 300 dead, it gives fuel to the people that would like to see other nations join in, which I continue to believe would be a grave error....and lead to Russia choosing to invade.

IOW, a win-win situation.


Yep

[GQBlues]

Actually it does mean something, as the pro-Russian separatists do not have any aircraft which Ukrainian forces would need to attempt to shoot at.  All Ukrainian BUK missile systems can be accounted for.  Those are both facts. 

There is essentially a movie, a classified one, which has been made for heads of State, to prove precisely what happened.  Satellite images show the BUK missile systems being brought from Russia to Snizhne, Ukraine.  Satellite images show them being fired from there.  Satellite images as well as video, show them being taken back to Russia.  Voice intercepts of the Russian commander and other Russian Intel types were captured and have been verified as authentic....

Will you kindly post a link to this irrefutable evidence? I would love to see it. All I've seen was the *convoy* traveling on an open road in broad daylight. How far from the border did it had to go, you think? 50-60 miles? I mean, had I been a field commander and I had to move such a weaponry, I would maybe mobilize in the dark and off road considering the *eyes* roving around those parts, no?

..Honest soldiers do not deliberately contaminate a crash zone (in this case a crime scene) and move and destroy evidence.  That is something done by thug mercenaries from Russia with a lot to hide.

It's a crash site, not a crime scene. The *crime scene* happened 33,000 ft up.

I'm not really sure what *investigation* they're supposed to conduct on the ground? What *evidence* do you think they would be looking for? The plane was blown to bits. It's in hundreds of thousands of little pieces. Are the going to confirm it was hit by a missile? I thought that was already decided without a doubt. Kiev had already filmed the mobilization of the launchers and thereby convicted Russia and the rebels. What's to confirm now?

I can understand the body retrieval, which from what I understand is done. Other than that - exactly WHAT can be determined on the crash zone outside of what Washington had already decided what this is already?

[Muzh]

Talk about obtuse!  Of course the terrorists shot it down.  There are recordings of them discussing the target.  There is satellite evidence of the missile being brought across the border from Russia, of it being fired, and of the remaining missiles being transferred back across the border.Ukraine has no missiles in that region, it did not "lose" missiles, and it had no reason to have missiles there, as the terrorists have no planes.  So, the only place that missile could have come from is Russia, and it could only have been fired by the terrorists or by Russia.The fact the terrorists control the crash site, that they have not allowed European observers access, have removed evidence, and have basically desecrated the graves of the dead tells you what animals these former FSB/GRU are.

  If it pleases you, you may call what I said obtuse, but I think you are just being a little defensive for some reason, as I mentioned I thought it was probably the Russian Separatists. 


What you say may be correct...but you are still stating things as if they are fact...how do you know for sure nobody lost a missile?  I'm not really interested in the discussion about who did it, because it appears the Russian Separatists did do it so what more can be said on that subject between us..,they probably weren't framed, but as I mentioned I don't have much trust in governments anymore so to me anything is possible, I'll always have a small measure of unimportant skepticism, unless I actually saw a video showing what happened from start to finish....but like I said, i don't think they were framed, they probably made the error all on their own.  But it is still a matter between the brothers. 


Fathertime!   

Boe, it is like dealing with a little child exhibiting passive-aggressiveness.


NOW, it is a matter between brothers. Between big brother and little brother, right FT?

[GQBlues]

I would assume so.  They had many reports, even before Abu Ghraib, on US malfeasance in Iraq.


Amnesty International is not known for being particularly "U.S. friendly".

There isn't any, Boethius.

As for the UN, did you happened to have read the 2001 UN Report regarding how well Iraq's Oil-For-Food program was going? It's pretty funny if not downright maddening.

[Boethius]

http://www.amnesty.org/en/region/afghanistan?page=8

[GQBlues]

http://www.amnesty.org/en/region/afghanistan?page=8

It's not there Boethius.

[Boethius]

There are many reports of US forces using excessive force on that link.  AI does not document every atrocity in a country.  They report on trends, and will include either prisoners of conscience, reports based on AI interviews, or, IIRC, reports that can be independently verified by more than one source.

[GQBlues]

There are many reports of US forces using excessive force on that link....

Excessive force is nothing...That's a *normal* occurrence in the battlefield and one I didn't refer to.

...AI does not document every atrocity in a country.  They report on trends, and will include either prisoners of conscience, reports based on AI interviews, or, IIRC, reports that can be independently verified by more than one source.

Considering that, how can you present it as irrefutable evidence for much of anything? AI, while they do try to do their best is NOT exactly the best tool to use to present anything as something painting an entire picture of what's IS going on.

FWIW...did you know the US is still killing people in the Balkans, Iraq and places where we've been engaged in the last 20 years - even if we're no longer actively engaged in these places? Read about depleted uranium. We know what this can do but it hasn't stopped us from using it.

[Boethius]

I know about depleted uranium.  If you are looking at me as someone who justified the invasion of Iraq, you are barking up the wrong tree.


AI demonstrates trends.  You know, from reading its reports, that the Syrian regime is oppressive.  You know Egypt tortures political prisoners.  You know that first nations are disproportionately represented in Canada's jails, and often live in deplorable conditions.  So, from reading their report, we know that, to date, the terrorists are committing the bulk of human rights violations in Ukraine.

[GQBlues]

...
AI demonstrates trends.  You know, from reading its reports, that the Syrian regime is oppressive.  You know Egypt tortures political prisoners.  You know that first nations are disproportionately represented in Canada's jails, and often live in deplorable conditions.  So, from reading their report, we know that, to date, the terrorists are committing the bulk of human rights violations in Ukraine.

What I know is proxy wars are a very murky water to tread on and trying hard to make sense and appoint guilt in one and not the other is an exercise in futility, Boe...Regime changes are a very dirty affairs.

Your obvious biased view in this conflict illustrate that very clearly in your posts.

[Boethius]

You are as biased as am I.  However, I do not believe the change came as a result of US interference in Ukraine's domestic politics.

[GQBlues]

No, actually I'm not. You are free to quote any of my posts relating to this conflict that illustrate my bias. Everyone is complicit in this regime change, thus everyone is *guilty* of what happened to MH17 regardless on who fired the missile. Proxy wars and regime changes causes toll far beyond its objectives.

[fathertime]

You are as biased as am I.  However, I do not believe the change came as a result of US interference in Ukraine's domestic politics.

I don't think he is nearly biased as you on this subject. There are some balanced viewpoints presented here,  and his is one of them.  your biases appear to be off the charts...which is fine, but you don't seem to recognize that.

Fathertime!

[Hammer2722]

I don't think he is nearly biased as you on this subject. There are some balanced viewpoints presented here,  and his is one of them.  your biases appear to be off the charts...which is fine, but you don't seem to recognize that.

Fathertime!

   POT,KETTLE,BLACK!!!!

[fathertime]

   POT,KETTLE,BLACK!!!!

That is fine if the impression I give is biased. I would not deny it, but I also believe boethius is extremely biased in her presentation of 'facts'.

Fathertime!

[Photo Guy]

We should list Putin's lies. I'll start with his worst, his excuse for military mayhem, his reason for allowing incursions and the use of BUKs, tanks, etc.

1- Russia will protect Russian Speakers wherever they may be.

This is a very Hitleresque concept. a la Sudetenland. Okay, I know a number of Ukrainians in Ukraine. These particular people prefer the Russian language. For years, these people have never mentioned any kind of problem with their preference of the Russian language. They have not been targeted or abused. So Putin's directive is a complete ruse. A fake motivation for expanding Russia's control of various regions, increasing his power, and sometimes moving borders. Apparently his goal is to expand Russia to the point of a new Soviet Union and he's okay with the bloodshed.

[The Natural]

That is fine if the impression I give is biased. I would not deny it, but I also believe boethius is extremely biased in her presentation of 'facts'.

Fathertime!

Of course she is. I always thought she was Canadian until she said she is Ukrainian a little while back. Seems to me many Ukrainians rather hate all Russian. Can understand a certain reluctance towards them if they have traditionally been looked Down upon by the Russians, but that doesn't mean it's a good idea to demonize them now that they are in Control of the state apparatus. If she wants, she can tell us what her feelings are in this.

[Hammer2722]

Of course she is. I always thought she was Canadian until she said she is Ukrainian a little while back. Seems to me many Ukrainians rather hate all Russian. Can understand a certain reluctance towards them if they have traditionally been looked Down upon by the Russians, but that doesn't mean it's a good idea to demonize them now that they are in Control of the state apparatus. If she wants, she can tell us what her feelings are in this.

You are also one to be talking about biases. Cmon man, after reading all of your posts about the subject there is no doubt in anyone's mind that your reasoning is based on the influence your wife has on you. Seriously????

[The Natural]

You are also one to be talking about biases. Cmon man, after reading all of your posts about the subject there is no doubt in anyone's mind that your reasoning is based on the influence your wife has on you. Seriously????

Did I say I am not biased? Where? Sure i am and it's good to hear you think my wife has an influence in my life. I reckon I have an influence in her life as well. I think it's a good thing.

[Hammer2722]

Did I say I am not biased? Where? Sure i am and it's good to hear you think my wife has an influence in my life. I reckon I have an influence in her life as well. I think it's a good thing.

Good, so we now know that you are not using your own reasoning on the topic. Good to know.

[The Natural]

Good, so we now know that you are not using your own reasoning on the topic. Good to know.

So you feel the need to take a shot at me? Saying I am incapable of own reasoning. I can't remember you being in this discussion and offering anything, but now you want to jump in With stupid one-liners?

This always happens when you answer a question from someone who disagrees With you here. They are not genuinely interested in the answer, only to get something to base their next entry on, which is almost always a personal attack.

Oh, I must learn not to fall for that or else I will not be able to contain myself. The only one that I know that will NOT use this tactic even though being violently in disagreement with me, is Boethius.

[Hammer2722]

So you feel the need to take a shot at me? Saying I am incapable of own reasoning. I can't remember you being in this discussion and offering anything, but now you want to jump in With stupid one-liners?

This always happens when you answer a question from someone who disagrees With you here. They are not genuinely interested in the answer, only to get something to base their next entry on, which is almost always a personal attack.

Oh, I must learn not to fall for that or else I will not be able to contain myself. The only one that I know that will NOT use this tactic even though being violently in disagreement with me, is Boethius.

No, not taking a shot at you at all. Just pointing out the obvious. You already stated yourself that your reasoning is most certainly influenced by your wife so how am I taking a shot at you? You guys are so quick to take offense. Its amazing really. I have no dog in this game as my girl is from Belarus. But when you start to accuse people of bias opinions, I will call you out easily.

[GQBlues]

No, not taking a shot at you at all. Just pointing out the obvious. You guys are so quick to take offense. Its amazing really. I have no dog in this game as my girl is from Belarus. But when you start to accuse people of bias opinions, I will call you out easily.

Actually, I was the one that assailed Boethius' biased views in these exchanges, so what exactly are YOU calling me out on? I asked her the same thing  I'm asking you - quote me where you think I have been biased...

[Muzh]

So you feel the need to take a shot at me? Saying I am incapable of own reasoning.

Actually, with statements like this:

Of course she is. I always thought she was Canadian until she said she is Ukrainian a little while back. Seems to me many Ukrainians rather hate all Russian. Can understand a certain reluctance towards them if they have traditionally been looked Down upon by the Russians, but that doesn't mean it's a good idea to demonize them now that they are in Control of the state apparatus. If she wants, she can tell us what her feelings are in this.

Have you lived in Ukraine and partaken with them to make this broad statement; usually spewed by the Kremlin's Propaganda machine AKA Russia Today?


FYI, I do not hate Russians nor Norwegians, nor Ukrainians nor any other -ians. However, I do despise the thugs and goons who prey on the weaker. And not to mention ignorants who can't think for themselves.