Ukrainian Air Defense Exercises Might be Behind Malaysian Aircraft Crash

[Boethius]

This is also from today's Daily Beast -

Right now Russia is moving troops, armor, and advanced antiaircraft missiles toward the border with Ukraine. In the last 48 hours, dozens of videos have been uploaded to social-media sites that show Russian armor very close to the border, many of them confirmed to be within mere kilometers of Ukraine.

On Thursday, my team at The Interpreter definitively geolocated Russian armor only 2,000 meters (and closing) from the border and a Buk, the same type of missile that likely took down Malaysia Airlines Flight 17, only a few hours from being within range of Ukraine’s air force. Columns of tanks, marked with the same painted numbers and flat, pale-green paint we’ve seen in Ukraine since (at least) June 20th, were spotted moving en masse toward a key border crossing. Some Ukrainian journalists are reporting that at least some of this armor has already crossed the border.

Russia’s helicopters held ground-fire exercises Friday on the border between Russia’s Rostov region and Ukraine’s Donetsk region. The head of Russia’s airborne units, which played a critical role in the conquering of Crimea, has pledged to expand operations beyond the boundaries of Russia (tanks marked with the insignia of Russian Airborne forces were captured by Ukrainian troops just yesterday). The Ukrainian government now says that its military has detected even more advanced antiaircraft batteries lined up on its border.

There is now significant evidence that Russia is openly supporting the separatists militarily and many experts now believe that Russia could invade and beat back the Ukrainian anti-terror operation.

An open war between Ukraine and Russia may have already begun. In the last 24 hours, there are reports of cross-border shelling in new locations and 17 new Grad rocket batteries digging in on the Russian side of the border, but within range of the Ukrainian military’s front lines. This is even more concerning when it is put into context. In the last two days, two different Ukrainian military convoys have been destroyed by Grad rockets south of the MH17 crash site, in Shakhtyorsk and near Torez. Russian paratroopers have even taken pictures with the bodies of the Ukrainian soldiers and have posted them to social networks (this isn’t the only time Russian soldiers have posted pictures from inside Ukraine, which has caused the Russian government to discuss banning their soldiers from posting to social media).

Full article is here -

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/08/01/russia-s-military-is-already-in-east-ukraine-will-there-be-a-full-scale-invasion.html

[fathertime]

You certainly had no compunction about stating he has no position.  I noted, based on what I've read, I know his position.  I will state my opinion as I wish.  I don't need you to decide what I can, or cannot, post.

Who said I was deciding what you could or couldn't post?  ....  First you refuse to state your own position, then when pressured you finally take Misha's position, and now you are trying to state Muzh's too?  He (Muzh) hasn't directly said what he thought, he was busy like you harshly critiquing everybody else's positions.   


Now you have stated (through Misha) that you think Ukraine should fight...that is fine... it is nice to know where people stand.  Obviously I think they shouldn't under these circumstances,  but we shall see what comes to bear soon enough...and maybe it will work out differently then I think it will. 


Fathertime!   

[Boethius]

I have never refused to state my position.  I have posted so numerous times.  I believe most posters here discerned my position from the first post I made on my return.  The fact you have not been able to figure it out, or, more accurately, you do not like the way I presented it, does not change the fact my position has always been evident. 


My point is, that is the same story with Muzh.  His position is clear for anyone who pays attention to his posts.


Now, let's get back to the issues.

[fathertime]

I have never refused to state my position.  I have posted so numerous times.  I believe most posters here discerned my position from the first post I made on my return.  The fact you have not been able to figure it out, or, more accurately, you do not like the way I presented it, does not change the fact my position has always been evident. 


My point is, that is the same story with Muzh.  His position is clear for anyone who pays attention to his posts.


Now, let's get back to the issues.

Ok, it seems to me that you did refuse...and I couldn't care less how you 'present it'...much less 'not like' it.    Be that as it may, everybody now knows that what you believe Ukraine should do....and I'm hoping a last second solution can be negotiated because it is looking like something terrible is going to happen soon.  This war should be avoided at almost any cost...imo


Fathertime! 

[Misha]

So,where is your proof of this? Russian news?

Yes, I was going to ask the same.

[calmissile]

Ok, it seems to me that you did refuse...and I couldn't care less how you 'present it'...much less 'not like' it.    Be that as it may, everybody now knows that what you believe Ukraine should do....and I'm hoping a last second solution can be negotiated because it is looking like something terrible is going to happen soon.  This war should be avoided at almost any cost...imo


Fathertime!

Please send a letter to Putin and ask him to crawl back into his Pariah State and mind his own business.  That will avoid a war!

You can also try to figure out a way for the Russian people to get the truth instead of the lies from State Run Media.  When Putin's economy collapses, he will need some kind of story to tell his subjects.       

[Manny]

Before answering this question, I would just want to make a few Points. First, I skimmed through the replies on here. I think that even the "pro-Russians" here get it all wrong. IN MY OPINION! This situation we got here is way Beyond "Putin saving his face". If anything, Putin and Russia has been passive both in action and Language. They have just about exhausted all diplomatic means in sorting out this question but have been met With nothing more than aggression and a joint western media campaign to demonize Putin. Washington wants total surrender from Kremlin or a war. The sooner Kremlin (and also Beijing, because they're Next in line) understand this and act accordingly, the better. I have nothing but contempt for the rulers in Washington, but even more for the EU idiots that are willing pawns of Washington as they commit their countries to economical suicide With their sanctions, just to please the psycopaths in Washington which is under to influence of the neo-cons.

As With the economy going up and then Down again, maybe Our current world paradigm now really needs a shake that can awake the big ignorant masses of their big political sleep and remind them they are also part of world events?

Russia to invade Ukraine, you ask.

When they annexed Crimea (which was a very good thing except I need a visa now) they should have annexed eastern Ukraine at the same time. Unfortunately Putin then still believed the west could be reasoned With. I really hope by now he hold no such illusions. The west have now declared war. Washington has managed to make Quislings out of the EU representatives and in the west nobody's complaining about it but those doing business With Russia. The media in the US AND Europe are all 1984'ish. Putin and Russia has two Choices:

1. Give up, have a US-backed colour revolution in Russia and get a US puppet president and government. The Russian Public have even more of a reason to feel inferior, this time and for all history to come. China will surrender as a consequence of Russia's fall. The indispensable and exceptional People of USA will wrap themselves in their flag and tell themselves that this is the end of history. It is done, it is Perfect. They are the chosen People. Next to the Israelis, of course.

2. Never give up. Stand for truth. Take the heat for a while and get to work and then make the idiots in USA and Europe fry in their own bacon.

That is the best post I have read on here in a long, long time. I agree with all of it.

[calmissile]

That is the best post I have read on here in a long, long time. I agree with all of it.

Of course!  Two peas in a pod.     

[Doll]

Before answering this question, I would just want to make a few Points. First, I skimmed through the replies on here. I think that even the "pro-Russians" here get it all wrong. IN MY OPINION! This situation we got here is way Beyond "Putin saving his face". If anything, Putin and Russia has been passive both in action and Language. They have just about exhausted all diplomatic means in sorting out this question but have been met With nothing more than aggression and a joint western media campaign to demonize Putin. Washington wants total surrender from Kremlin or a war. The sooner Kremlin (and also Beijing, because they're Next in line) understand this and act accordingly, the better. I have nothing but contempt for the rulers in Washington, but even more for the EU idiots that are willing pawns of Washington as they commit their countries to economical suicide With their sanctions, just to please the psycopaths in Washington which is under to influence of the neo-cons.

As With the economy going up and then Down again, maybe Our current world paradigm now really needs a shake that can awake the big ignorant masses of their big political sleep and remind them they are also part of world events?

Russia to invade Ukraine, you ask.

When they annexed Crimea (which was a very good thing except I need a visa now) they should have annexed eastern Ukraine at the same time. Unfortunately Putin then still believed the west could be reasoned With. I really hope by now he hold no such illusions. The west have now declared war. Washington has managed to make Quislings out of the EU representatives and in the west nobody's complaining about it but those doing business With Russia. The media in the US AND Europe are all 1984'ish. Putin and Russia has two Choices:

1. Give up, have a US-backed colour revolution in Russia and get a US puppet president and government. The Russian Public have even more of a reason to feel inferior, this time and for all history to come. China will surrender as a consequence of Russia's fall. The indispensable and exceptional People of USA will wrap themselves in their flag and tell themselves that this is the end of history. It is done, it is Perfect. They are the chosen People. Next to the Israelis, of course.

2. Never give up. Stand for truth. Take the heat for a while and get to work and then make the idiots in USA and Europe fry in their own bacon.

[Belvis]

The alarm rumors about russian invasion is a well known method to reach some inner marks. Pretty funny to observe from Russia those panic-mongers.
First, Putin is not a dumb person and think in strategic terms, not as average person. If anybody could describe in clear cut words what Russia can benefit from invasion in Ukraine I would assume demonic plans of russian president.
Second, according to polls Russians do not support the invasion, they don't like idea to spread the civil war which would be Russia-Ukraine war from point of Russians. Of course, it does not mean we have no stakes in this conflict, but war is excluded.

[Anotherkiwi]

Before answering this question, I would just want to make a few Points. First, I skimmed through the replies on here. I think that even the "pro-Russians" here get it all wrong. IN MY OPINION! This situation we got here is way Beyond "Putin saving his face".

Happy to agree with you on this.

If anything, Putin and Russia has been passive both in action and Language.

How can that be, if this situation is "way beyond Putin saving his face?"  If he had been that passive, his face would be untouched.

They have just about exhausted all diplomatic means in sorting out this question but have been met With nothing more than aggression and a joint western media campaign to demonize Putin.

What diplomatic means?  I haven't noticed any.  As for the "aggression" and the media campaign, what do you expect when (going all the way back to the Crimean invasion) Putin for so long denied that Russian forces were involved, and then had to admit that they were.  It was quite obvious, even then, that Putin's word meant nothing.

Washington wants total surrender from Kremlin or a war. The sooner Kremlin (and also Beijing, because they're Next in line) understand this and act accordingly, the better. I have nothing but contempt for the rulers in Washington, but even more for the EU idiots that are willing pawns of Washington as they commit their countries to economical suicide With their sanctions, just to please the psycopaths in Washington which is under to influence of the neo-cons.

As With the economy going up and then Down again, maybe Our current world paradigm now really needs a shake that can awake the big ignorant masses of their big political sleep and remind them they are also part of world events?

I really don't see how you can claim that Washington wants total surrender or a war.  None of the American posters here seem to see that as a possibility.  However, as far as the sanctions go, Putin has repeatedly stated that he has influence with the separatists - not surprising, since the leaders are some of his former staff!  Not once have the rebels agreed to any ceasefire - even when the Ukrainian forces stood down for a week, the rebels continued their (for want of a better term) reign of terror.

Russia to invade Ukraine, you ask.

When they annexed Crimea (which was a very good thing except I need a visa now)...

Just being slightly selfish there, aren't you?  Have you bothered talking to people from Crimea (other than your wife), whose income has been drastically reduced because of lack of tourists, and for whom so many items now cost so much more?  Also look at the post from Wayne a few days ago about his wife's reaction to all this.

http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=17354.msg372867#msg372867

...they should have annexed eastern Ukraine at the same time.

That sounds good!  Now, let me ring the President of Finland and see if he's happy to bring Kirkenes and the rest of the far north of Norway back under Finnish control.  Heck, those border lines are just too wiggly - why not straighten them out where the E6 leaves the Finnish border, and just run the border straight to the sea?  It's only 25 kilometres!  Or perhaps everywhere north of Narvik should go to Finland.  I mean, that would be so much easier than just maintaining all those extra border posts, wouldn't it?  And it's only 10 kilometres from the end of the eastern arm of the Ofotfjord to the existing border, after all.

Or maybe it would be simpler to give everywhere south of the E16 highway back to Sweden (but we'll be generous, and let you keep Oslo).  I mean, Norway used to be part of Sweden, didn't it?  Surely all those persecuted Swedish-speaking Norwegians would be so much happier being under the reign of Carl XVI Gustaf, wouldn't they? 

Now, where can I find those phone numbers...

[Faux Pas]

The alarm rumors about russian invasion is a well known method to reach some inner marks. Pretty funny to observe from Russia those panic-mongers.
First, Putin is not a dumb person and think in strategic terms, not as average person. If anybody could describe in clear cut words what Russia can benefit from invasion in Ukraine I would assume demonic plans of russian president.
Second, according to polls Russians do not support the invasion, they don't like idea to spread the civil war which would be Russia-Ukraine war from point of Russians. Of course, it does not mean we have no stakes in this conflict, but war is excluded.

Russia is already at war and spreading civil war in Ukraine. What difference does it make if Russian soldiers are wearing Russian insignias to the dead?

[Doll]

  Second, according to polls Russians do not support the invasion, they don't like idea to spread the civil war which would be Russia-Ukraine war from point of Russians. Of course, it does not mean we have no stakes in this conflict, but war is excluded.

I've said it here many times- they don't believe me.
They say if Russians support Putin- they support war.
Что с них взять))))))))))))

[Misha]

First, Putin is not a dumb person and think in strategic terms, not as average person. If anybody could describe in clear cut words what Russia can benefit from invasion in Ukraine I would assume demonic plans of russian president.

Sure, he is not dumb, but is he a brilliant strategist? I am not convinced of that. First, he does not really say what he wants to achieve, so it is hard to judge if he is succeeding. The whole Novorossia thing was a flop. If he expected all of the south and east of Ukraine to rise up, he was mistaken. Also, by all indication, he severely underestimated the ability of Ukraine to organize a somewhat coherent military defense. Hardly an indicator of a brilliant strategist. Then giving BUKs and not planning for an oopsie hardly calls up an image of a brilliant chess-like strategy planning all moves and all possible outcomes. That downed jet torpedoed over a decade's worth of diplomatic efforts to buy off Europe. I won't even get into the potential long term consequences that might only be evident in a few years.. 

[Doll]

First, he does not really say what he wants to achieve, 

He won't or you don't know Putin.

[ghost of moon goddess]

Just being slightly selfish there, aren't you?  Have you bothered talking to people from Crimea...

or taxpayers from the RF, who are shouldering the burden of propping up Crimea ?

http://www.eurasianet.org/node/68394

The prospect of paying down the Crimea's budget deficit wasn't met enthusiastically by some taxpayers in Novosibirsk
In the picture they are holding placards reading:

''When annexing Crimea, you should have told me it would cost me 22000 rubles''

''Crimea cost the residents of Novosibirsk 15 billion rubles? We would better spend it on construction of 2 subway stations''
 

[Misha]

or taxpayers from the RF, who are shouldering the burden of propping up Crimea ?

http://www.eurasianet.org/node/68394

The prospect of paying down the Crimea's budget deficit wasn't met enthusiastically by some taxpayers in Novosibirsk
In the picture they are holding placards reading:

''When annexing Crimea, you should have told me it would cost me 22000 rubles''

''Crimea cost the residents of Novosibirsk 15 billion rubles? We would better spend it on construction of 2 subway stations''
 

I expect that once the euphoria dies down, such protests will become even stronger. Then, there will be the be a patriot and go to Crimea inevitable disappointment. Watched one YouTube video posted by a Russian from St. Pete describing his vacation. Main complaint: the prices. Everything was outrageously expensive. The trip cost him at the end some 45,000 rubles, twice as much as going to Egypt or Turkey. His final recommendation was go anywhere but Crimea. This does not bode well for Crimea's future economic prospects.   

[Doll]

''Crimea cost the residents of Novosibirsk 15 billion rubles? We would better spend it on construction of 2 subway stations''

 

[Misha]

He won't or you don't know Putin.

Yes, I do know, and that is why I question the whole Putin is a brilliant strategist trope. 

[ghost of moon goddess]

 

  = затокрымнаш ??? 

[Doll]

= затокрымнаш ??? 

Нет- нельзябытьтакимитупыми

[Faux Pas]

Yes, I do know, and that is why I question the whole Putin is a brilliant strategist trope.

I wouldn't describe him as brilliant either. Cunning perhaps with a penchant to shoot from the hip. Lucky also comes to mind. One thing about luck is it seldom lasts.

[ghost of moon goddess]

mozhno!dostatochnoposmotret'skol'kotakihzheobitaetvpredelahtolkoodnogoforuma

[Misha]

I wouldn't describe him as brilliant either. Cunning perhaps with a penchant to shoot from the hip. Lucky also comes to mind. One thing about luck is it seldom lasts.

Yep, that too. I expect the Kremlin is in panic mode now. All possible outcomes are bad for Putin. Don't invade, Ukraine defeats the mercenaries, and Putin thus appears to have abandoned the mythical Novorossia of his making to the "fascists" his propoganda fabricated. Invade, and risk losing even more. Then there is the economy that is stalling even when oil prices are still high. What will happen if oil drops to $80 or lower a barrel and you have to spend much more on arms and the armed forces for a new arms race that you yourself initiated... I agree, sooner or later luck always runs out.

[Misha]

mozhno!dostatochnoposmotret'skol'kotakihzheobitaetvpredelahtolkoodnogoforuma

Ifyouthinkthatnotputtingspacesbetweenwordswillsomehowmakeforasecretcode,Ihatetosayitisnotworking