Ukrainian Air Defense Exercises Might be Behind Malaysian Aircraft Crash

[jone]

I've said it here many times- they don't believe me.
They say if Russians support Putin- they support war.
Что с них взять))))))))))))

Doll,

What is not to believe?  The simple fact is that, of my Russian friends, none can see Russia invading Ukraine.  Most of them have family there.  I was talking to a friend from Novosibirsk last week.  Her grandparents live south of Kharkiv.  She had tears in her eyes thinking that Russian tanks would operate in the place where she had spent many summers growing up.

But Putin's choices are running low.  If he continues active support of the DPR and LPR, then, sooner or later, unless he sharply escalates, his efforts will come to naught because of the overwhelming advantage that Kyiv has in its own country.  He will have to commit substantially more military hardware to even maintain the status quo.

[ghost of moon goddess]

Ifyouthinkthatnotputtingspacesbetweenwordswillsomehowmakeforasecretcode,Ihatetosayitisnotworking

 

Mishen'ka, I did not expect that breaking encryption might be a particular passion of yours.  Well, next time instead of posting 'no spaces between words'-encrypted messages I will use 'heavier' encryption by adding extra spaces between words 

[jone]

Don't know how many of you are keeping track of maps of the Donetsk region, but Ukrainian forces have encircled (with one remaining resupply road) Horlivka.   But they cannot kick out the insurgents because the Ammonia Plant has been mined.  Should the ATO Army move in, the plant gets blown, and everyone in an extended area dies.  It is a real conundrum.  Moreover, there are reports coming out of Horlivka that a number of the locals were taken as hostages and forced onto the plant premises.  This whole situation is getting pretty close to impossible.

For all practical purposes, the ATO army has bypassed Horlivka and is now focusing on the Donetsk subdivisions, one-by-one.

[Misha]

Mishen'ka, I did not expect that breaking encryption might be a particular passion of yours.  Well, next time instead of posting 'no spaces between words'-encrypted messages I will use 'heavier' encryption by adding extra spaces between words 

You could even try changing letters if you wish. Perhaps we could even come up with secret code ring

[ghost of moon goddess]

sap egnared  em en ac ! 

[Doll]

sap egnared  em en ac ! 

сурдоперевод

[jone]

Here is a link that I found somewhat repulsive.  It is of rebel soldiers firing GRADs off in two different directions.  In and of itself, that is par for war.  It is the laughing at the end of the video that I found repulsive.  Notice that they are shooting in two completely different directions?



While the actual location of this particular video is unknown, three civilians were killed in Lugansk today from just such an attack from the same group.

[ghost of moon goddess]

сурдоперевод

I don't know how to fingerspell ca ne me dérange pas, as I'm not a sign language interpreter

 It is the laughing at the end of the video that I found repulsive.  Notice that they are shooting in two completely different directions?

that’s a 'nice' way to congratulate Ukrainians on the paratroopers day – firing Grad rockets at them 

[CanadaMan]

Sure, he is not dumb, but is he a brilliant strategist? I am not convinced of that...

 Then giving BUKs and not planning for an oopsie hardly calls up an image of a brilliant chess-like strategy planning all moves and all possible outcomes. That downed jet torpedoed over a decade's worth of diplomatic efforts to buy off Europe.

You are making an assumption about how MH17 was downed.

[Gator]

MOVED TO USELESS POLITICS THREAD

[CanadaMan]

So,where is your proof of this? Russian news?

Yes, I was going to ask the same.

Misha and Hammer, please don't shoot the messenger nor second-guess his allegiance.

In the following article you will find evidence that completely contradicts
the popular BUK/ground-to-air missile theory of missiles being fired by rebels.

http://vortexcourage.me/2014/07/28/shocking-analysis-of-the-launch-of-malaysian-mh17/


Michael Bociurkiw, a Ukrainian Canadian and one of the first OSCE monitors on the scene at the MH17 disaster site was interviewed by the CBC in Donetsk last week.
What he saw and discusses (near end of interview) corroborates the evidence presented in the above article.

http://www.cbc.ca/player/News/World/ID/2478615393/

[jone]

Canada Man,

Are you saying that the people who have reviewed the black boxes and report explosive decompression due to a missile strike is erroneous?  There will always be some circumstantial evidence that contradicts the accepted conclusions.  Hell, even there were many people who said that the Americans never landed on the moon.  Last month the Chinese confirmed it.  Conspiracy theorists abound in today's society.  It usually is because the people who believe them don't accept the world for what it is.  I believe that there were no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq.  It goes against the early narrative of my country.  But there is no conclusive evidence that there were such weapons.

The overwhelming evidence points to a missile strike from the ground.  The phone calls that were intercepted confirm that.  As for US intelligence, or lack of specific evidence, the US government does not need to release their methods for collecting data to prove who did it. 

As I told Shadow, if it looks like a Duck, swims like a Duck, quacks like a Duck, you can call it a pig until the DNA tests come in, but we'll all call it a Duck.  After all, pigs don't swim too well.

[Gator]

Canada Man,

I do hope this and other possibilities are thoroughly analyzed.   Inexplicable holes should get the attention of the investigators.  Anything is possible, e. g. did the rebels practice firing their weapons at the downed plane fuselage? 

[Misha]

Misha and Hammer, please don't shoot the messenger nor second-guess his allegiance.

In the following article you will find evidence that completely contradicts
the popular BUK/ground-to-air missile theory of missiles being fired by rebels.

http://vortexcourage.me/2014/07/28/shocking-analysis-of-the-launch-of-malaysian-mh17/


Michael Bociurkiw, a Ukrainian Canadian and one of the first OSCE monitors on the scene at the MH17 disaster site was interviewed by the CBC in Donetsk last week.
What he saw and discusses (near end of interview) corroborates the evidence presented in the above article.

http://www.cbc.ca/player/News/World/ID/2478615393/

So, your evidence that the world is concluding that the plane was shot down by the Ukrainian armed forces is a blog of questionable value with posts that seem intent on showing the world that Russia did not do it and one interview that kind of sounds like what the blog post said...

[Boethius]

When they annexed Crimea (which was a very good thing except I need a visa now) they should have annexed eastern Ukraine at the same time. Unfortunately Putin then still believed the west could be reasoned With. I really hope by now he hold no such illusions. The west have now declared war. Washington has managed to make Quislings out of the EU representatives and in the west nobody's complaining about it but those doing business With Russia. The media in the US AND Europe are all 1984'ish. Putin and Russia has two Choices

Unlike Crimea, the majority of the populations in Luhansk and Donetsk are ethnically Ukrainian.  Ethnic Russians are the majority in the city of Donetsk, but nowhere else.  There was a good article a few months ago on this.  I link it for your reference.  So you propose that the majority native Ukrainians, who, outside the cities, use Ukrainian as their native tongue, should become Russian citizens at the whim of a Russian leader?  And then you complain about American hegemony and Americans trampling others' interests?  That seems to be a case of cognitive dissonance.


http://ukrainianweek.com/Politics/115434

Never give up. Stand for truth. Take the heat for a while and get to work and then make the idiots in USA and Europe fry in their own bacon.

In all of this, Russia has not stood for the truth. 

[jone]

That seems to be a case of cognitive dissonance.

Cognitive dissonance, huh?  Seems to me your verbiage is following a certain member of another forum who will remain un-named. 

[Boethius]

I knew the term before I ever encountered Andrew, so, nope.


Just call 'em as I see 'em.

[Misha]

Cognitive dissonance, huh?  Seems to me your verbiage is following a certain member of another forum who will remain un-named.

Remain un-named? Lord Voldemort?!?  I am the only other person who used the term cognitive dissonance to the best of my knowledge in the last few days, but can't remember on which forum.

[Doll]

Russians often use this "term" (Russian-speaking)

[Faux Pas]

I don't know how to fingerspell ca ne me dérange pas, as I'm not a sign language interpreter

that’s a 'nice' way to congratulate Ukrainians on the paratroopers day – firing Grad rockets at them 

Yuo tighm figure thsi otu ro not but, teh midn cna tell whta teh wodr is evne fi teh lettres aer nto in teh rigth plaec. Codign has to eb depeer adn moer intenes

[CanadaMan]

Canada Man,

Are you saying that the people who have reviewed the black boxes and report explosive decompression due to a missile strike is erroneous?

Please don't make assumptions Jone. I choose my words carefully when I post, for good reason.

I was simply reporting another angle that I came across recently, no more no less.
Rapid decompression also fits the gunfire theory.

The overwhelming evidence points to a missile strike from the ground.  The phone calls that were intercepted confirm that.  As for US intelligence, or lack of specific evidence, the US government does not need to release their methods for collecting data to prove who did it. 

Unfortunately (or fortunately, depending upon your point of view) there is no overwhelming evidence of a missile strike.

There is overwhelming reporting of a missile strike in the MSM, but that's not the same thing.

[Doll]

Yuo tighm figure thsi otu ro not but, teh midn cna tell whta teh wodr is evne fi teh lettres aer nto in teh rigth plaec. Codign has to eb depeer adn moer intenes

[CanadaMan]

So, your evidence that the world is concluding that the plane was shot down by the Ukrainian armed forces is a blog of questionable value with posts that seem intent on showing the world that Russia did not do it and one interview that kind of sounds like what the blog post said...

Misha your sentence is rambling and not well constructed.

"So, your evidence that the world is concluding that the plane was shot down by the Ukrainian armed forces..."

I did not give evidence that the world is concluding anything!

I am not sure, but I think you were trying to say that my post presented a link to evidence that the plane was shot down from the air, with corroboration from an OCSE monitor and that the world has made this conclusion.

If that is what you were trying to say then, no that is not 'my evidence'.

Gator got what I was trying to say.
Read his reply.
And yes Gator, it crossed my mind that rebels could have fired at the cockpit when it was on the ground.

We know they certainly tampered with the evidence.

[Anotherkiwi]

...I was simply reporting another angle that I came across recently, no more no less.
Rapid decompression also fits the gunfire theory.

Unfortunately (or fortunately, depending upon your point of view) there is no overwhelming evidence of a missile strike.

Depending on what was in the warhead, the damage shown DOES also fit being struck by a BUK surface to air missile.

The missiles require a radar lock to initially steer the missile to the target until the missile's on-board radar system takes over to provide final course corrections. A proximity fuse aboard the missile determines when it will detonate, creating an expanding fragmentation pattern of missile components and warhead to intercept and destroy the target. A proximity fuse improves the "probability of kill" given the missile and target closure rates, which can be more than 2,000 miles per hour (3,200 km/h) (or more than 3,000 feet per second (910 m/s)).

Alternatively, the command component may be able to remotely detonate the missile, or the on-board contact fuse will cause the warhead to detonate.

The damage to the cockpit could also have been caused by the "expanding fragmentation pattern" noted above, although it would seem strange in such a case that the rest of the fuselage would avoid being hit.  However, the only other photos I've seen of substantial parts of the rest of the plane are just those of the tail and a fragment of fuselage lying on its side, which would hide any damage to the outer skin.  The remainder of the fuselage seems to be in very small chunks, which could easily hide the cause of the breakup.

I don't think that anyone could possibly draw a meaningful conclusion from just these particular photos.  However, much more will be revealed if the plane can be reconstructed by whoever is able to remove it from the crash zone.

[Faux Pas]

Because of the circumstance and the inability to properly investigate the site after the explosion, the whole truth will never be known. That aspect alone points a heavy finger to the Russian backed terrorists. They hindered the investigation. If you expect the truth and the facts to ever be revealed, you are fooling yourselves.