My view of the war

[lordtiberius]

Stirlitz,

How has the war hurt your business?  I am told that the banking industry has limits on cash withdrawals on machines and businesses and that they take commissions for withdrawals. 

You mentioned that Ukraine gave up claims to Southern provinces in Russia.  Are you speaking of the Kuban province where many Ukrainians live? Or where you speaking of other provinces as well.

A lot of Ukrainians live in Siberia.  I am in contact with a pro-democracy blogger living in Petropavlovskkamchatskiy, Kamchatskaya Oblast ', Russia and he is always warning his readers about the dangers of engaging in this war.

MissAmeno said on another thread, that this war will lead to revolution and civil war in Russia.  Do you share her belief?

These are the words of a Kaliningrad emigre

I support any movements against Moscow. Russian is the prison of nations. As sooner it collapse than better for its population.

I wish the Germans will take this [Kaliningrad] are back. It is the most "red" region in Russia.

There is no other way than collapse. the only question when. The only thing I really dont want happened it is Chinese occupation of Far East.

US should take it first.
To prevent it

I am not consider myself Russian. My grandmother from father's line - Finnish, from mothers line - Ukrainian. I can not say I am Russian. Russians it is the most strange nation ever. They have no links with original Kiev Rus how they love to think and how their historiography teaching them.

Population of this area got deformed mentality after 300 years Mongolian occupation in Medieval time

Honestly I can not stand most of them, I got some Russian friends but they are complete Europeans. I am lucky because it is hard to find such a Russian.

Thoughts?

Also, what are your thoughts on Putin 's many admirers in the West?

Thank you.  I find your opinions most refreshing and educational.

[Gator]

Many families and friends become enemies. ....So I stopped talking to most of my Russian friends. I even stopped talking to my relatives. That’s the case with so many people.

Thank you Stirlitz for writing a clear, yet sad report that gets to the heart of the matter.   I would find it difficult to believe that two bordering countries who traditionally have been as close as sisters could sink to this level of hostility,  except that I live it within my own family.  My 15-yo stepson voices the same opinions as you hear from your Russian family and Russian friends.   Even my RW wife says American TV is wrong.   

My response........ it is not just American news .  It is news from England, Germany, France....all of Europe.   Now independent organizations such as Amnesty International are stating that Russia is the source of the problem.  It falls on deaf ears. 

The Russian news coverage gives the sense to Russia that it is once again a powerful nation, so various surveys show 60-80% of Russians approve of Putin's performance.  A Pew survey (very reputable research center) reported,  "Even more emphatically, in the same early August poll, three-quarters of respondents (77%) subscribed to the view that Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko’s “anti-terrorist operation” against separatist rebels was launched with the support and encouragement of the U.S., compared with 7% who thought the campaign was the Ukrainian leader’s own initiative."

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2014/08/29/putin-faces-limited-opposition-from-russian-public-on-ukraine/


Will the Russian people ever realize the truth?   Even if they do, is there anything they can do to change the politics?  As difficult as it is to believe, I guess Putin will be around for a long time. 

Putin is a clever, powerful man who will do anything to win.  I envision this winter he will play his trump card (supply of natural gas to Europe and Ukraine).  This will yield a win, albeit it will be short term.  I say "short term" because the Russian economy needs Europe far more than Europe needs Russia.  In a year we could see more build up of NATO forces in countries bordering Russia, exactly what Putin wanted to avoid. 

I see no solution for years and an isolated Russia will eventually suffer.   I do not know what will happen in Ukraine other than times will be difficult. 

[fathertime]

There was a very good discussion on Faheed Zakaria GPS this morning.  Many of the panel members agree that Russia cares most..supplying weapons to Ukraine is a fool's errand and will lead to many more dead bodies and Russia will still take what it wants.  I think the west would like to keep stirring things up since to this point it has gone Russia's way...our strategists probably view the dead Ukrainians as an acceptable price to put a thorn in Russia's side.

Fathertime!

[BillyB]

Putin is a clever, powerful man who will do anything to win.  I envision this winter he will play his trump card (supply of natural gas to Europe and Ukraine).  This will yield a win, albeit it will be short term.  I say "short term" because the Russian economy needs Europe far more than Europe needs Russia. 
 

I see no solution for years and an isolated Russia will eventually suffer.

I've spoken to a number of strangers on a bench when visiting the FSU. Surprisingly, a good number of them prefer the days of the Soviet Union, including those I've met in Kiev. Most of those people are older and can remember those times. I told them Capitalism can't thrive when the politics are so corrupt.


Putin is one of the richest men on earth. He also believe the days of the Soviet Union are better and doesn't feel Russia needs Europe and America to function. He doesn't like the sanctions but he prefers an empire. He is going after south/east Ukraine and going to get it. Either he annexes them or let Ukraine keep the territory but the regions there will have enough autonomy so Putin maintain control and rig the elections in Ukraine to get another puppet president to run the country. Ideally, Putin prefers a civil war with his thugs marching to Kiev to give him the whole country. Unfortunately for him, not enough Ukrainian citizens want to be ruled under Putin's foot. Russian troops will have to play a part in this.

[Stirlitz]

If Putin wants Ukraine, he can try. But I would rather die than see Ukraine become part of Russia. I am ready to fight.

However, keep in mind that there are millions of people around the world, and hundreds here on this forum who very much wish that USA would stop sticking its nose into other parts of the world.

It is Europe who must take steps first of all, not the USA. This is what Ukrainians are very unhappy with.

Obviously, such zombie behavior on this matter exists everywhere. Unfortunately when most of the folks actually begin to understand the truth it will likely be too late

In this case it is very dangerous. History repeats. Russia is moving with great steps to the Nazism. Well I would even admit that Nazism has already conquered Russia, but fortunately, we do not see the death camps yet. The rest is very typical of the Nazism though: oppression of free speech, persecution of those who disagree with Putin, proclaiming one nation as the best nation superior to others, aggression against neighboring nations, utter lies in the mass media... more to come.

How has the war hurt your business?

A lot. I lost ALL business in the Crimea. I still has some business in Odessa and the rest of Ukraine but this year I only had 3 (THREE) customers: in February, May and August. Don’t ask me how I survive. Before the war, I had a lot of tourists, I was giving city tours in Odessa, Yalta and Sevastopol besides guiding customers around Ukraine. But after the Russian occupation of the Crimea cruise ships stopped going there. Then, the FSB had a set-up in Odessa on the 2nd of May, and tourists stopped going to Odessa too. So I am very "grateful" to Russia, Putin and pro-Russian idiots. I can tell you that it is not only tourist business that suffers. A lot of people are losing income now. It is pleasant to see some of Putin’s admirers among them (we have a good saying: за что боролись, на то и напоролись — your cause is your trap), but more innocent people suffer too.

I am told that the banking industry has limits on cash withdrawals on machines and businesses and that they take commissions for withdrawals.

Not sure because I don’t have a bank account but my wife does and she says nothing has changed for her. That’s private, so for a business this might be different, I don’t know. But I have not heard of any major changes.

You mentioned that Ukraine gave up claims to Southern provinces in Russia. Are you speaking of the Kuban province where many Ukrainians live? Or where you speaking of other provinces as well.

I am speaking both of Kuban (where my ancestors come from by the way) and the south of some other regions such as Bryansk, Kursk, Belgorod, etc that border Ukraine. In 1918 they belonged to Ukraine, and up to day the Ukrainian language and customs are common there.

MissAmeno said on another thread, that this war will lead to revolution and civil war in Russia. Do you share her belief?

Absolutely. When the war started in February, I soon realized that it was the beginning of the end. The end of the Russian Empire. It gave a serious crack in 1917, then in 1991 it collapsed even more but both times it retained the Siberia and other key regions. Now it is high time to reduce the empire to its original size of the Moscow region (and, probably, rename it back to Muscovy — until the 18th century it had had this name when Peter the 1st invented the word Russia). You don’t probably know that the Russian Federation (the modern name of the Russian Empire) consists of a host of smaller republics, and most of them are not Russian at all:

• Adygea
• Bashkortostan
• Tatarstan
• Buryatia
• Altay
• Cherkessia
• Udmurtia
• Yakutia
• Hakassia
• Chuvashia
• Tuva
• Kalmykia
• Komi
• Kabardino-Balkaria
• Dagestan
• Chechnya
• Ingushetia
• Ossetia

All of them were conqured by the Russian Empire throughout the centuries starting in the Middle Ages. Many of them are still unhappy about it; you have all heard of Chechnya I am sure. While they have some Russians living there, the indigenous population is not Russian and in many cases is not even European.



So I expect them to become independent within a couple of years. Much like bigger republics were able to escape from the empire in 1991. Especially as Russia's natural wealth is concentrated there; while the European part of the empire does not have much gold and oil. But this is why the empire is still able to exist. At the same time, those oil-rich regions are not prosperous. Moscow steals everything, as far as I am concerned. It is natural that the republics should keep their wealth, but Putin and other Moscow thieves are not going to let them just go, so there will be a civil war, I am sure of that. And I sincerely wish Russians to experience a war on their soil!

Also, what are your thoughts on Putin 's many admirers in the West?

Putin has many admirers, that’s true, but if I am not mistaken, Hitler did too. However, in this case it is chiefly the financial reasons. The KGB used to fund European communist. The FSB continues this trend by supporting European outcast politicians.

Thank you Stirlitz for writing a clear, yet sad report that gets to the heart of the matter. I would find it difficult to believe that two bordering countries who traditionally have been as close as sisters could sink to this level of hostility

Just 8 months ago I would not imagine anything like that. Believe it or not but I considered Russia my country too. I did not like Ukraine's nationalists and wanted Ukraine to reunite with Russia. Without Putin, though. I did not like Russia's policies but I believed it was all because of Putin, and ordinary people were our brothers.

I have never been so drastically mistaken in my life. NEVER!!!

Now, looking back, I realize that I could see it all coming... but I would not listen to anyone who told me that Russia was our enemy. Yet I admit that I just pretended not to notice that many Russians were hostile to Ukraine and Ukrainians, thinking that it was individual people, not the entire country. It’s classic: we watched them to attack Georgia and it did not dawn on us that we would be the next.

Now I am a Ukrainian nationalist. A Banderovets. I remember my grandmother scaring me with the Banderovtsy in my childhood :) They were the freedom fighters in the west of Ukraine in the 1940s and 1950s. I am not the only Banderovets who is ethnically Russian and speaks only Russian, I know quite a few people like me, some of them even have a Russian passport but are willing to fight for Ukraine against Russia. But to imagine anything like that just a year ago, not to mention a decade... anyone would call you insane. Yet this is the reality.

My response........ it is not just American news . It is news from England, Germany, France....all of Europe. Now independent organizations such as Amnesty International are stating that Russia is the source of the problem. It falls on deaf ears.

Russia has been the source of problems in the entire Euroasian continent for centuries. So this is not news.

Will the Russian people ever realize the truth? Even if they do, is there anything they can do to change the politics? As difficult as it is to believe, I guess Putin will be around for a long time.

There is always something you can do. We Ukrainians were able to throw off our dictator Yanukovich even though it was not a piece of cake when the police are shooting live ammunition at you and you only have a wooden shield to protect and a club to attack. But Russians are slaves in their nature. They always long to have an emperor to worship. Can you imagine many of them literally deify Stalin? Those who are not such idiots just don’t have the guts to go to the streets. Yes, they will realize the truth, but I am afraid this will happen when the blue and yellow colors will fly over the Kremlin towers or what will remain of them. If Moscow is in ruins and half of the population dead by then I will not be surprised. As I mentioned, I see clear parallels with Nazi Germany of the 1930’s. Hitler invaded Poland in 1939. In 6 years all of Germany was destroyed. This time I don’t think it will take that long. Probably by 2017 it will all be over. But at what cost?

Putin is a clever, powerful man who will do anything to win. I envision this winter he will play his trump card (supply of natural gas to Europe and Ukraine).

Putin might be clever in terms of scamming people but he is not truly smart. In fact, he’s an idiot. To harm Russia and himself so efficiently, he does not need any enemies. He already cut gas supply to Ukraine but we are not easy to break. But his Gazprom is suffering heavy losses as a result, so who is clever? All he is going to achieve playing with the gas is that both Ukraine and Europe will hectically look for ways to do without his gas. And they will find solutions. But when they do there will be no way back, and he can stuff his gas pipe into his ass. We call it axing the branch you are sitting on. Not very clever, eh?

www.politico.com/magazine/story/2014/09/to-understand-putin-read-orwell-110551.html

[BillyB]

I lost ALL business in the Crimea. I still has some business in Odessa and the rest of Ukraine but this year I only had 3 (THREE) customers: in February, May and August. Don’t ask me how I survive. Before the war, I had a lot of tourists, I was giving city tours in Odessa, Yalta and Sevastopol besides guiding customers around Ukraine. But after the Russian occupation of the Crimea cruise ships stopped going there. Then, the FSB had a set-up in Odessa on the 2nd of May, and tourists stopped going to Odessa too. So I am very "grateful" to Russia, Putin and pro-Russian idiots. I can tell you that it is not only tourist business that suffers. A lot of people are losing income now.

Thanks for the update. We had a few people came on the forum and lives in Crimea that's happy Russia annexed Crimea. They don't own a tourist business so they haven't been immediately impacted yet. The average Russian citizen's income is much more than the average Ukrainian's. I suspect some Crimeans are expecting higher income and standards living under Russia and they will be patient for that to happen.

Putin might be clever in terms of scamming people but he is not truly smart. In fact, he’s an idiot.

Putin may have stolen a few plays out of Hitler's playbook but he knows Hilter made some mistakes. He will try to avoid those mistakes. I also believe Europe or America will not come to Ukraine's rescue as they did with Poland's invasion in 1939. Putin knows this. Ukrainians are going to have to rough this out alone. The good news is some Western countries are willing to send Ukraine more advanced weapons to help Ukraine get out from under Russia's foot.

I have never been so drastically mistaken in my life. NEVER!!!

Now, looking back, I realize that I could see it all coming... but I would not listen to anyone who told me that Russia was our enemy. Yet I admit that I just pretended not to notice that many Russians were hostile to Ukraine and Ukrainians, thinking that it was individual people, not the entire country. It’s classic: we watched them to attack Georgia and it did not dawn on us that we would be the next.

I've noticed some Russian women on forums view Ukrainians as second class citizens. Many Ukrainians never realized Yanukovych was Putin's puppet. If one doesn't see and understand corruption, one can't get rid of it. It's hard work to rig elections and make an assassination attempt with radioactive material. Putin wants results for the fruit of his labor and won't let Ukraine go. I think many Ukrainians, like yourself, have a better understanding on how Russia sees Ukraine and how Russia will use Ukraine. Your country is at a crossroads and hopefully you will have success in moving in a new direction.

[calmissile]

I have never been so drastically mistaken in my life. NEVER!!!

I am pleased to learn that you have now "seen the light".  Also, for being man enough to admit your earlier views of Putin's Russia was a mistake.

Peace, brother.  We are on the same side now.     

[Drew]

Just 8 months ago I would not imagine anything like that. Believe it or not but I considered Russia my country too. I did not like Ukraine's nationalists and wanted Ukraine to reunite with Russia. Without Putin, though. I did not like Russia's policies but I believed it was all because of Putin, and ordinary people were our brothers.

I have never been so drastically mistaken in my life. NEVER!!!

Now, looking back, I realize that I could see it all coming... but I would not listen to anyone who told me that Russia was our enemy. Yet I admit that I just pretended not to notice that many Russians were hostile to Ukraine and Ukrainians, thinking that it was individual people, not the entire country. It’s classic: we watched them to attack Georgia and it did not dawn on us that we would be the next.

Unfortunate that you had to come to this conclusion.
Many outsiders including myself realized years ago that Russia was a true enemy of Ukraine.
You only had to listen to ordinary Russians talk about Ukraine and Ukrainians to realize this was true.

Very well written Stirlitz.  The pain for Ukraine is going to be great.  Will the pain eventually be great for Russia?  I am not sure.  Depends on whether western Europe will finally wake up.  If the USA elects a true right winger, substantial punishment to Russia will come from the USA.  But how many USA boys will lose their life in the process.

Will the people of Russia themselves wake up?
I doubt it.  They are mostly descended from serfs who are used to having a strong leader, even when the leader is a dictator and despot.

[missAmeno]

Stirlitz, you made my day, thank you

[Drew]

Stirlitz, you made my day, thank you

Yes, he made a good patriotic speech.
And I support you and he 100 percent.

But unfortunately such good words do not lessen the terrible situation of the Ukrainian people.

Perhaps if he could rouse the Ukrainian people like Patrick Henry, Thomas Paine, Thomas Jefferson, etc.  There will be some true heros and leaders who step forward like those at Independence Square earlier.  We never know where such people will come from.

[Gator]

There was a very good discussion on Faheed Zakaria GPS this morning.  Many of the panel members agree that Russia cares most..supplying weapons to Ukraine is a fool's errand and will lead to many more dead bodies and Russia will still take what it wants.  I think the west would like to keep stirring things up since to this point it has gone Russia's way...our strategists probably view the dead Ukrainians as an acceptable price to put a thorn in Russia's side.

What does your phrase "Russia cares most" mean?   "Russia cares" is an oxymoron. 

I watched GPS today and I have a somewhat different take.  I recall nothing from the panelists about the West "stirring things up."   They did talk about the intractability of Russia, noting Russia's  willingness  to commit its own troops to the separatist cause and take casualties.   The Pulitizer-prize winning journalist Anne Applebaum commented that Russia has essentially won the conflict, forcing  Ukraine to accept during the ceasefire the presence of Russian backed separatists within its territory.   Although a ceasefire should be used to negotiate a settlement, I got the sense that everyone expected Russia to push even harder and take more of Ukraine's sovereign territory. 

[fathertime]

What does your phrase "Russia cares most" mean?   "Russia cares" is an oxymoron. 

I watched GPS today and I have a somewhat different take.  I recall nothing from the panelists about the West "stirring things up."   They did talk about the intractability of Russia, noting Russia's  willingness  to commit its own troops to the separatist cause and take casualties.   The Pulitizer-prize winning journalist Anne Applebaum commented that Russia has essentially won the conflict, forcing  Ukraine to accept during the ceasefire the presence of Russian backed separatists within its territory.   Although a ceasefire should be used to negotiate a settlement, I got the sense that everyone expected Russia to push even harder and take more of Ukraine's sovereign territory.

Cares about the outcome more than any western country does.


The stirring up comment was my own take.



Fathertime!

[lordtiberius]

The Pulitizer-prize winning journalist Anne Applebaum

is an idiot.  She has been reliably wrong on all issues relating Euromaidan since its inception.  This is a frightening truth for all those familiar with her books and her ties to the Polish government.

Stirlitz is right.  The colors of Ukraine will fly over the Kremlin.  I find no flaws in his logic, argument or the facts he used in their construction.

[Drew]

The colors of Ukraine will fly over the Kremlin.

Come on now; this is ridiculous thinking or wishing.
Ukraine is going to lose big time in the short run.

In the long run, it will take China, USA and Western Europe to bring Russia to heel.  Don't know when that might happen, but several years away at best.

And it will come economically, not militarily, except that Chinese troops will probably occupy all of current Russia at least up to Ural mountains.

[Bee Farmer]

In the long run, it will take China, USA and Western Europe to bring Russia to heel.  Don't know when that might happen, but several years away at best.

And it will come economically, not militarily

If you believe in Biblical prophecy, it will be a military defeat of both China and Russia by the Antichrist with the help of 4 angels released from the river Euphrates....and 1/3 of mankind dies in the process.  Rev 9:13-21 and Dan 11:44.

[Doll]

The colors of Ukraine will fly over the Kremlin

[lordtiberius]

Come on now; this is ridiculous thinking or wishing.
Ukraine is going to lose big time in the short run.

The Ukrainian soldier volunteer is less equipped than the Russian mercenaries  pro-Russian volunteers and they are winning.  Give that soldier decent tanks like the ones that are idle on the Sierra Army Depot and air support like the squadrons of mothballed A-10s.  And it is over for Russia.

In the long run, it will take China, USA and Western Europe to bring Russia to heel.  Don't know when that might happen, but several years away at best.

All the nations you save China have no courage and no guts.  They all have no honor.  China will take Siberia but not through use of the military.  They will buy it.

And it will come economically, not militarily, except that Chinese troops will probably occupy all of current Russia at least up to Ural mountains.

I am not a Chinese military expert but they are largely untested and I wouldn't put much stock or speculation except they are pretty awesome at killing their own people.

[Gator]

Cares about the outcome more than any western country does.

Statement of the obvious. 

Descending order, IMO, of who cares the most:

1.  Ukraine

(huge, huge gap between No. 1 and No. 2)

2.  Russia
3.  Baltic States
4.  Other CCCP nations
5.  Eastern Europe - except Hungary
6.  Western Europe - except Shadow and Manny

(large gap between No. 6 and No. 7)

7.  USA

In the US, concern about Russia is minimal compared with our concern about ISIS.   CNN gives more air time to Kate's second pregnancy than to Ukraine. 

The stirring up comment was my own take.

You are entitled to express your opinion even though I consider it wrong because 1) you have no proof and 2) there is no economic incentive for the West (especially the US) to intervene.  In other words, you are accusing the West of murder yet you have neither found the weapon nor established the motive.  In fact, your circumstantial evidence is weak hearsay. 

I suggest that you find a new banner for these discussions other than no more US intervention.  If you have not noticed, our President has NO BALLS AT ALL except in petty politics with the Republicans.  Even then, he does not have the balls to face an issue and instead uses his interpretation of executive privilege to circumvent public debate. 

Have a good day!

[LiveFromUkraine]

7.  USA

In the US, concern about Russia is minimal compared with our concern about ISIS.   CNN gives more air time to Kate's second pregnancy than to Ukraine. 


You are entitled to express your opinion even though I consider it wrong because 1) you have no proof and 2) there is no economic incentive for the West (especially the US) to intervene.  In other words, you are accusing the West of murder yet you have neither found the weapon nor established the motive.  In fact, your circumstantial evidence is weak hearsay. 

I suggest that you find a new banner for these discussions other than no more US intervention.  If you have not noticed, our President has NO BALLS AT ALL except in petty politics with the Republicans.  Even then, he does not have the balls to face an issue and instead uses his interpretation of executive privilege to circumvent public debate. 

Have a good day!

Actually, Russia being weak is incentive for the US.  The US has done what it could to make Russia weaker.  Look at the Afghan war as an example.  That is hardly hearsay.   To think there can only be economic reasons and not political ones is very ignorant. 

[Belvis]

The colors of Ukraine will fly over the Kremlin. 

No problem. Already done:

[Faux Pas]

Actually, Russia being weak is incentive for the US.  The US has done what it could to make Russia weaker.  Look at the Afghan war as an example.  That is hardly hearsay.   To think there can only be economic reasons and not political ones is very ignorant.

Perhaps I'm a bit slow on the uptake but, you'd need to expand on that a bit for me as I'm not following you. The Afghan invasion was a result of the Taliban's harboring of OBL and the Al Queda training camps. There wasn't anything economical about it unless you count the increased Poppy Trade. IIRC

As for the first part. Why in your opinion would the West or the U.S. in general need Russia to be or appear weaker? The U.S. gubmint itself is knowingly destroying the dollar and dismantling the military. Why would there be any emphasis on Russian strength considering what they are doing to themselves? What would it matter?

My take is, it doesn't and the U.S. isn't involved or plying anything to Russia. Putin is making his moves in order to build perception of his/Russia's strength because of what the U.S. is doing. Don't you think it possible that any U.S. involvement is minimal and NOT a result of U.S. intervention?

[GQBlues]

Statement of the obvious. 

Descending order, IMO, of who cares the most:

1.  Ukraine

(huge, huge gap between No. 1 and No. 2)

2.  Russia
3.  Baltic States
4.  Other CCCP nations
5.  Eastern Europe - except Hungary
6.  Western Europe - except Shadow and Manny

(large gap between No. 6 and No. 7)

7.  USA...

Untrue. You voted for Romney. Talks are generated now that he was right all along during his campaign that the BIGGEST US geopolitical foe, and one the US should really be very concerned about is/was Russia.

We should have never intervene in Ukraine's internal affairs despite the temptation of NATO's establishment in that country.

[Gator]

Actually, Russia being weak is incentive for the US.

For sure in the past, long before Uncle Ronnie declared the CCCP as the "Evil Empire."  In the post-CCCP era,  I would have thought that the US wanted a stronger and more open and democratic Russia.  Now that Putin is showing his true colors, the relationship could become more and more adversarial. 

The US has done what it could to make Russia weaker.  Look at the Afghan war as an example. 

FP answered you regarding America's pursuit of OBL, et al.  I believe you meant an earlier war, namely  the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan in 1979. 

The CIA indeed secretly spent $2-4 billion in the 1980s  funding the Afghan mujahedin's fight against the Soviets.  Charlie Wilson's War is an excellent read explaining how one congressman, a CIA mid-level agent and a Texas socialite were instrumental in defeating the Soviets by sending advanced weapons to the freedom fighters. 


Remember, these were Cold War days and the Soviets were our largest nemesis.  Plus, the hawks in Congress wanted some revenge for what the Soviets did to America in supporting Ho Chi Minh.   

The Congressional funding was very small, starting at $5 million/yr and eventually reaching $500 million/yr.   The Soviets were spending substantially more (cost of helicopter vs. cost of stinger missile, plus the Mujahedin fought for free).  The Soviet defeat in Afghanistan together with Uncle Ronnie's spending on Star Wars, etc. accelerated the collapse of Soviet empire. 

Just think, if America had not done that, the Soviet system perhaps would still be in place and you never would have met all those Slavic women. 

   

To think there can only be economic reasons and not political ones is very ignorant.

I agree.  Actually, political reasons normally trump economic reasons.  Ukraine today being a case in point. 

[Gator]

Untrue. You voted for Romney. Talks are generated now that he was right all along during his campaign that the BIGGEST US geopolitical foe, and one the US should really be very concerned about is/was Russia.   

Russian havoc will occur far from our shores, other than the potential  for cyber attacks.

We should have never intervene in Ukraine's internal affairs despite the temptation of NATO's establishment in that country.

I repeat what I wrote to Fathertime:

"You are entitled to express your opinion even though I consider it wrong because 1) you have no proof and 2) there is no economic incentive for the West (especially the US) to intervene.  In other words, you are accusing the West of murder yet you have neither found the weapon nor established the motive.  In fact, your circumstantial evidence is weak hearsay. 

I suggest that you find a new banner for these discussions other than no more US intervention.  If you have not noticed, our President has NO BALLS AT ALL except in petty politics with the Republicans.  Even then, he does not have the balls to face an issue and instead uses his interpretation of executive privilege to circumvent public debate. 

Have a good day!"

LFU insists that we have a political motive to make Russia weak.  If so, why did we give Russia a free pass when it invaded Georgia?  You should recall that we did nothing, and even hit the "reset" button.  And there was Obama making promises in an open mike to do more for Russia once he was re-elected.

[GQBlues]

Russian havoc will occur far from our shores, other than the potential  for cyber attacks.


I repeat what I wrote to Fathertime:

"You are entitled to express your opinion even though I consider it wrong because 1) you have no proof and 2) there is no economic incentive for the West (especially the US) to intervene.  In other words, you are accusing the West of murder yet you have neither found the weapon nor established the motive.  In fact, your circumstantial evidence is weak hearsay. ..

I would hardly call cable exchanges by the US Embassy to DC as 'weak'. Surely you don't believe CIA's John Brennar's abrupt travel to Kiev was to see how to market Nuland's cookie recipe with Poroshenko's chocolates, no?

If you can't answer that, then maybe just enlighten us to why he was even there in the first place? Or why are we even meddling in this mess AT ALL? What business is it of ours if we don't have ANY aspirations/interest in that region?

...I suggest that you find a new banner for these discussions other than no more US intervention....

Why dispense with one of the causes, if not the focal cause, and merely engage the debate on the 'effect'? That would be both absurd and pointless.

...  If you have not noticed, our President has NO BALLS AT ALL except in petty politics with the Republicans.  Even then, he does not have the balls to face an issue and instead uses his interpretation of executive privilege to circumvent public debate...

It isn't surprising at all to me Clinton quit as Secretary. She deemed Obama to be both passive and weak in how he handles foreign issues. It isn't likewise a surprise to me that had she been POTUS, we'd been long entangled deeply in Syria, Israel and Ukraine conflicts. 

In some sinister way, I AM ELATED Obama is who he is in this regard. Ukraine isn't our business and this isn't our *war*.

...LFU insists that we have a political motive to make Russia weak.  If so, why did we give Russia a free pass when it invaded Georgia?  You should recall that we did nothing, and even hit the "reset" button.  And there was Obama making promises in an open mike to do more for Russia once he was re-elected.

But we did do something....2008 was when we aggressively dealt directly with Ukraine and started to make plans for NATO membership - which - we knew full well that the consequences will be or can be.