Of course, the CIA wants to topple Russia

[Muzh]

Well, at least the Putinists will completely agree on that.


However, there's more to the pie than what the crust shows.

Above all, the NATO chief insisted that an independent, sovereign, and stable Ukraine firmly committed to democracy and the rule of law was key to Euro-Atlantic security. “We stand united in our support of Ukraine’s sovereignty and territorial integrity,” he said.
 
 
Actually, the West is only rhetorically united over Ukraine’s sovereignty and territorial integrity. Western nations have no real intentions of matching that statement with deeds to allow Ukraine to regain territory in eastern Ukraine that has been taken over by rebels backed by Russian troops and tanks—let alone Crimea.

http://carnegieeurope.eu/strategiceurope/?fa=56540

[Anotherkiwi]

Actually, the West is only rhetorically united over Ukraine’s sovereignty and territorial integrity. Western nations have no real intentions of matching that statement with deeds to allow Ukraine to regain territory in eastern Ukraine that has been taken over by rebels backed by Russian troops and tanks—let alone Crimea.

Exactly the point which I made in the War thread earlier today.

[Drew]

In that same journal is an analysis by several writers of the consequences of a majority Scottish vote to separate.

A main conclusion was that Putin and Russia would be one of the main beneficiaries.  Reason being that this idea and outcome would likely spread to Spain, and some others that were noted.

Overall there would be a weakening of the EU and the idea that a group of partner democracies could make a go of it.

So perhaps we should have some volunteers here get some surplus uniforms (and face masks), and go over to Scotland to make sure the vote outcome is correct.  Would be best if a No vote could bring in 120% or so of the vote.

[southernX]

In that same journal is an analysis by several writers of the consequences of a majority Scottish vote to separate.


So perhaps we should have some volunteers here get some surplus uniforms (and face masks), and go over to Scotland to make sure the vote outcome is correct.  Would be best if a No vote could bring in 120% or so of the vote.

drew, ill meet you & the others in glasgow , can you zip down the deli and get a couple of frigates and some tanks as well as the uniforms ??
oh and dont forget to make sure you get non army boots too , just so all the terrorists seperatists will fit mandrews lookalike test  when photographed  .lol
SX

[Doll]

So perhaps we should have some volunteers here get some surplus uniforms (and face masks), and go over to Scotland to make sure the vote outcome is correct.  Would be best if a No vote could bring in 120% or so of the vote.

Who "we"?

[Drew]

Who "we"?

Doll, interesting to note that you have never been embarrassed at all about Russian Terrorist activities, not embarrassed at all that the vote in Crimea was overseen at the ballot box by uniformed persons wearing face masks, not embarrassed at all that in  some areas, more than 100% of the eligible voters voted, etc.

Nothing at all about low life Russians can embarrass you.

[Doll]

Doll, interesting to note that you have never been embarrassed at all about Russian Terrorist activities, not embarrassed at all that the vote in Crimea was overseen at the ballot box by uniformed persons wearing face masks, not embarrassed at all that in  some areas, more than 100% of the eligible voters voted, etc.

Nothing at all about low life Russians can embarrass you.

I just asked a question and the question was really simple

[fathertime]

In many ways this entire conflict is strengthening Russia's hand overall...it may well force them to be more resourceful...For example the wests:  Oil Services companies may not be able to work in Russia again, as they start their own homegrown companies....This is one of those boomerang effects of the sanctions. Although the goal was to injure RUssia, the long term consequence is that we stepped on our own dick again.




http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/09/12/us-ukraine-crisis-sanctions-oil-idUSKBN0H720A20140912



Fathertime! 

[Boethius]

They said the same thing in the 1970's, the 1980's, and the 1990's.  We can see for ourselves how prescient they were. 

[Doll]

They said the same thing in the 1970's, the 1980's, and the 1990's.  We can see for ourselves how prescient they were.

What "same things"?

[Boethius]

That Russia would shut out the West.  That Russia would overtake the West economically. 

[Doll]

That Russia would shut out the West.  That Russia would overtake the West economically.

How long ago were you in Russia?
Between 1998 when it awfully depended on import and now the progress is huge. I mean- huge.

[fathertime]

That Russia would shut out the West.  That Russia would overtake the West economically.

You are once again showing dishonestly.....nowhere was it written that 'Russia would overtake the west economically'.  The comment was that the western companies would be shut out of the gas services industry in Russia as they developed their own companies out of necessity.....once again it is YOU because of your hatred that you attempt to dishonestly turn the comment into something else. 


The reality is if western companies lose their advanced foothold, then Russian companies will be forced to go through the learning curve and learn to be more self-sufficient.............in the short run it might involve some lost revenue...but in the long run it will probably strengthen them.


Fathertime!   

[lordtiberius]

the CIA is evil.  Look what they did to Saint Breivik of Belarus

[lordtiberius]

You are once again showing dishonestly
Fathertime!   

Heed his words.  He is the expert

[Anotherkiwi]

They said the same thing in the 1970's, the 1980's, and the 1990's.  We can see for ourselves how prescient they were. 

What "same things"?

That Russia would shut out the West.  That Russia would overtake the West economically. 

You are once again showing dishonestly.....nowhere was it written that 'Russia would overtake the west economically'.  The comment was that the western companies would be shut out of the gas services industry in Russia as they developed their own companies out of necessity.....once again it is YOU because of your hatred that you attempt to dishonestly turn the comment into something else.

I really wish, Fathertime, that you would  (just ONCE) read what was written, rather than putting your own spin on something.  The bit which I have bolded was spouted dozens of times during the Cold War, just as Boethius has said - in the 1970s, 80s and 90s.  YOU are referring to comments made recently as a response to the sanctions, which have absolutely nothing to do with what Boethius wrote!

[lordtiberius]

Why Putin and his minions want to establish these banana republics in Ukraine:

[Boethius]

Kiwi, this is an example of why I don't engage with FT much. 

[Boethius]

Why Putin and his minions want to establish these banana republics in Ukraine:

I don't believe Russia cares much about access to Ukrainian resources for their own profit.  Denying Ukraine access to those resources, OTOH, is a different story.  However, we also have to take into account that in Ukraine, oligarchs often control (i.e. steal) those resources, to the detriment of Ukrainians.

[fathertime]

I really wish, Fathertime, that you would  (just ONCE) read what was written, rather than putting your own spin on something.  The bit which I have bolded was spouted dozens of times during the Cold War, just as Boethius has said - in the 1970s, 80s and 90s.  YOU are referring to comments made recently as a response to the sanctions, which have absolutely nothing to do with what Boethius wrote!

I reviewed the flow of the conversation to see if I was outta line....and i don't think so....Botheius 1st comment, which she later clarified had nothing to do with my first comment regarding 'Russia overtaking the west economically'....if you can't see it, then you are trying not to. 


Simply put, the link I provided was discussion the need for Russian companies to create their own oil sector companies and this would potentially lock out western companies down the line, as Russian companies would be able to take care of their own needs.   So where does 'Russia overtake the West'? come into this?  I think that botheius is fatally biased regarding anything even potentially positive coming from Russia. 
Fathertime!

[lordtiberius]

I reviewed the flow of the conversation to see if I was outta line....and i don't think so....

what a shocker!

[Photo Guy]

Doll, the 'we' refers to all people who support Ukraine's sovereignty and oppose Putin's establishment of New Russia.

[Boethius]

I reviewed the flow of the conversation to see if I was outta line....and i don't think so....Botheius 1st comment, which she later clarified had nothing to do with my first comment regarding 'Russia overtaking the west economically'....if you can't see it, then you are trying not to. 


Simply put, the link I provided was discussion the need for Russian companies to create their own oil sector companies and this would potentially lock out western companies down the line, as Russian companies would be able to take care of their own needs.   So where does 'Russia overtake the West'? come into this?  I think that botheius is fatally biased regarding anything even potentially positive coming from Russia. 
Fathertime!

Sigh.  Your typical response based on flawed understanding and reading.

The USSR exported oil and gas.  It owned 100% of the resources.  Yet even when oil prices were sky high, and despite the proclamations of its leaders, the USSR was unable to surpass even one Western country in living standards.

On the collapse of the USSR, oligarchs stole the most lucrative companies.  Eventually, under Putin, almost all were returned to state control.  Since then, Russia has entered into agreements with foreign companies, but it has generally retained control of its resources.  Foreigners can purchase shares in companies on markets, such as Gazprom, though it is majority government owned.  So, the sanctions won't really change anything, as the structures are already in favour of the Russian government, and Russian oligarchs. 

Russia made the same arguments in the past, i.e., that Western views on X, Y, or Z would "lock them out".  During Soviet times, it was asserted that the USSR would surpass the capitalists.  Never happened.  After the collapse, the same argument was made vis a vis Russia.  Have a look at Russian vs any western country's GDP per capita.  Therefore, the "threat" is as empty as it has been when espoused in the past.  Capisci?

As for your assertion that I am biased about Russia, no, I am not.  One side of my better half's family lived in Moscow from the 17th century.  They moved to Ukraine during the Revolution, to preserve their lives.  Another side lived in St. Petersburg from the time of Peter the Great.  They, too, moved to preserve their lives but even then, Grandfather hid out in Siberia for almost a decade during Stalin's reign of terror.   My children have Russian blood.  Can you say the same?

I wish nothing but freedom, democracy, and a good life for the Russian people.  But that won't come from invading neighbouring countries.

[fathertime]

Sigh.  Your typical response based on flawed understanding and reading.

The USSR exported oil and gas.  It owned 100% of the resources.  Yet even when oil prices were sky high, and despite the proclamations of its leaders, the USSR was unable to surpass even one Western country in living standards.

On the collapse of the USSR, oligarchs stole the most lucrative companies.  Eventually, under Putin, almost all were returned to state control.  Since then, Russia has entered into agreements with foreign companies, but it has generally retained control of its resources.  Foreigners can purchase shares in companies on markets, such as Gazprom, though it is majority government owned.  So, the sanctions won't really change anything, as the structures are already in favour of the Russian government, and Russian oligarchs. 

Russia made the same arguments in the past, i.e., that Western views on X, Y, or Z would "lock them out".  During Soviet times, it was asserted that the USSR would surpass the capitalists.  Never happened.  After the collapse, the same argument was made vis a vis Russia.  Have a look at Russian vs any western country's GDP per capita.  Therefore, the "threat" is as empty as it has been when espoused in the past.  Capisci?

As for your assertion that I am biased about Russia, no, I am not.  One side of my better half's family lived in Moscow from the 17th century.  They moved to Ukraine during the Revolution, to preserve their lives.  Another side lived in St. Petersburg from the time of Peter the Great.  They, too, moved to preserve their lives but even then, Grandfather hid out in Siberia for almost a decade during Stalin's reign of terror.   My children have Russian blood.  Can you say the same?

I wish nothing but freedom, democracy, and a good life for the Russian people.  But that won't come from invading neighbouring countries.

I've not been making an argument about per capital GDP.  You have been making a straw man argument from the beginning. 




The point I continue to maintain and that was stated in the Reuters link  is that if indeed Russian companies start taking care of their own oil services, then western companies could easily lose the business permanently....AND that strengthens Russia's hand as they become more self-sufficient in that industry and overall. 




As far as bias goes...your husband's, mothers, aunt's, brother in law may be full blooded Russian....but that doesn't mean that you haven't shown tremendous bias in your presentation of arguments.   You are entitled to be biased if you want to be, just as anyone else can be. 


Fathertime!   

[AC]

Sigh.  Your typical response based on flawed understanding and reading.

The USSR exported oil and gas.  It owned 100% of the resources.  Yet even when oil prices were sky high, and despite the proclamations of its leaders, the USSR was unable to surpass even one Western country in living standards.

On the collapse of the USSR, oligarchs stole the most lucrative companies.  Eventually, under Putin, almost all were returned to state control. 

Do you think that communism in the USSR collapsed because it is simply an inherently unworkable system; or because it is unworkable in Russia because of Russian cultural tendencies; or it is simply unworkable because of human tendencies in general (ie when there is an elite group of people in power at the top, they abuse their power)?  Or only because of an attempt to be in an arms race with the West, which cost enormous amounts of money?