Unconfirmed 'News' Reports.

[calmissile]

Trying to piece together the reports on the fighting in East Ukraine is getting more difficult by the day.

I don't know about the rest of the members but I am starting to not accept ANY 'tweeted' reports from the front lines that are made without photos or other documented proof.  The current reports of Russian tanks and troops coming across the Russian/Ukrainian borders are still without any photographic proof.  The Ukraine government is currently advising international leaders that it is happening and still no proof or photos.

If Ukraine wants the support of foreign governments, they need credibility to back up their claims.  In the past couple of months there is less and less proof of the assertions being made publicly by both sides.  With the proliferation of cell phones, you would think there would be lots of photos.  Foreign governments are not going to take action against Russia and the terrorists without adequate documentation.  I hope Ukraine learns this lesson soon!

In a related thought, I have wondered for some time why Ukraine has not gathered together an offensive of special ops personnel and  attacked one of the columns of tanks coming across the border (using air power) to take out the vehicles.  And then document the results for the world to see that Putin is lying to the whole world.   Making unverified claims without proof, is getting old and may inhibit Ukraine from getting the military aid it desires and desperately needs.

Where is Vice News when we need them?

[tfcrew]

Ukraine Truce Vanishes as Government Says 200 Rebels Dead

Ukraine’s military said it killed as many as 200 rebels in an attack in Donetsk, inflicting the biggest blow from either side in the conflict in more than two months and removing pretense that a Sept. 5 truce is holding. Accusing Russia of sending dozens of tanks and other military vehicles....


http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-11-07/ukraine-lurches-back-toward-open-war-on-east-fighting.html

[lordtiberius]

NATO confirms the troop movements.  Calling it an invasion would obligate the EU and UN to ahem do something real.



Speaking of the EU did you know that EU foreign policy chief Frederica Mogherini is married to a Gazprom lobbyist?

[calmissile]

From what I read from NATO is that they said they CANNOT confirm the reports of the Russian tanks and troops crossing the border.  They could only confirm the movement of Russian troops on the Russian side of the border.  Perhaps it changed later today, but all the reports I tracked down came from a lone 'journalist' sending out a tweet.

Where's the beef (photos)?

[Gator]

I would think the skies are full of satellites observing the region. 

[calmissile]

I would think the skies are full of satellites observing the region.

For sure!  The problem is that the US (Obama) will not release the evidence.  I don't think he can continue to use the excuse that it would compromise our capabilities.  In the past we have made photos grainy, reduced resolution of photos released, etc.

I am beginning to think he is just scared shitless of Putin.

The other possibility is that the invasion reports are part of a propaganda campaign by Ukraine (or wishful thinking).

[AC]

For sure!  The problem is that the US (Obama) will not release the evidence.  I don't think he can continue to use the excuse that it would compromise our capabilities.  In the past we have made photos grainy, reduced resolution of photos released, etc.

I am beginning to think he is just scared shitless of Putin.

The other possibility is that the invasion reports are part of a propaganda campaign by Ukraine (or wishful thinking).

Or Obama made the deal with Putin that George Soros discussed.

[lordtiberius]

Koo koo
http://news.sky.com/story/1368812/russia-sends-dozens-of-tanks-into-ukraine

Google can be hard for some

[BillyB]

From what I read from NATO is that they said they CANNOT confirm the reports of the Russian tanks and troops crossing the border

Article below says NATO confirms the tank are in Ukraine.


http://www.inquisitr.com/1592105/russia-sends-troops-dozens-of-tanks-into-ukraine-as-fears-of-world-war-3-grow/

Where's the beef (photos)?

Photos and video below. T-72 tanks rolled into Ukraine. Ukrainian military doesn't own T-72 so there is no possibility of rebels claiming they stole the tanks from Ukraine's army. I'm skeptical of Ukraine's reports too so I always look at other sources.


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2656344/Russia-sent-three-tanks-armoured-military-vehicles-help-pro-Russian-rebels-claims-Ukraines-interior-minister.html

[AC]

From Billy's link:

'Russian foreign minister Sergei Lavrov warned that Ukraine has failed to make any progress in efforts to stop the violence and halt military operations, adding: ‘This is causing increasing concern."

Well duh Mr. Lavrov, you really thought you could invade another country and they would not resist?
 
Then there is this gem.  Can you say annexation?

"Separatist leaders in Donetsk and Lugansk yesterday announced they planned to let the Russian rouble circulate in territories which have declared unilateral independence from Ukraine.
 
They also intend open borders with Russia within two years."

[calmissile]

Article below says NATO confirms the tank are in Ukraine.


http://www.inquisitr.com/1592105/russia-sends-troops-dozens-of-tanks-into-ukraine-as-fears-of-world-war-3-grow/



Photos and video below. T-72 tanks rolled into Ukraine. Ukrainian military doesn't own T-72 so there is no possibility of rebels claiming they stole the tanks from Ukraine's army. I'm skeptical of Ukraine's reports too so I always look at other sources.


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2656344/Russia-sent-three-tanks-armoured-military-vehicles-help-pro-Russian-rebels-claims-Ukraines-interior-minister.html

Well Billy, I don't want to start an argument but just did an internet search on the subject and as of a few hours ago all the reports indicated that the claim of 13 tanks and other weaponry reported by the Ukraine military are unconfirmed by NATO and the USA.  NATO indicated they are looking into the reports.

It seems that every news report is the same except the one you posted in which has the author claiming what NATO said rather than a source itself.  Perhaps this reporter embellished the story a little.

We know there are some Russian tanks in Ukraine for some time.  What I am looking for is the confirmation or proof that this story of the 13 tanks, portable radar equipment, etc actually took place.

If the story is true and provable then I would expect the allies of Ukraine (including the USA) to be able to justify a significant response in Ukraine's favor.  My gut feeling is that the EU, Canada, Australia, and the US are waiting for proof of this convoy before taking any action.

[AC]

My gut feeling is that Obama has no guts to stand up to Putin.  Interestingly enough though it seems that Canada is absolutely their best ally right now.  The PM of Canada apparently doesn't like Putin and he's not afraid to stand up to him.  Maybe that is where Ukraine will get some heavy weapons from.

[Boethius]

It's politics.  Over 1 million Canadian voters have Ukrainian roots.

[calmissile]

My gut feeling is that Obama has no guts to stand up to Putin.  Interestingly enough though it seems that Canada is absolutely their best ally right now.  The PM of Canada apparently doesn't like Putin and he's not afraid to stand up to him.  Maybe that is where Ukraine will get some heavy weapons from.

Agree and I commend Canada for the help they have given to Ukraine.

As far as Obama......lets hope that Ukraine can hold on until our new Congress meets in January.

[AC]

Agree and I commend Canada for the help they have given to Ukraine.

As far as Obama......lets hope that Ukraine can hold on until our new Congress meets in January.

Agreed.  I am wondering if Canada has in fact quietly been giving Ukraine some of the weapons they need to defend themselves?

Even if our new Congress meets in January and agrees to help Ukraine, how long til they get the weapons?

[BillyB]

  Perhaps this reporter embellished the story a little.

Reporters have known to be wrong from time to time. Keep in mind, the reporter said a NATO source confirmed the tanks in Ukraine, not that NATO made a statement. NATO will need time to review any evidence before making a statement.


What we do know is Russia wants to be in east Ukraine and continually supports rebels with weapons. Any shipment of hardware is not surprising.

If the story is true and provable then I would expect the allies of Ukraine (including the USA) to be able to justify a significant response in Ukraine's favor. 

The West will respond with sanctions but no more. Russia can shoot down a civilian airliner full of Westerners and all the West will do is sanctions. I believe the world needs to see Ukrainians massacred before pressuring their governments to send advanced weapons to Ukraine. Seems like Putin will be able to take east Ukraine with little military intervention and no massacres. Kiev is next door.

[lordtiberius]

The original post cast doubts on the honesty of the Ukrainian government's assertion that Russia is reinforcing its troops in Ukraine.  Myself and others have posted articles from journalists and NATO verifying Ukraine's view.

Usually when people are wrong, they generally apologize for being wrong.  But then again, this is a different day for some people.

[BillyB]

Ukraine's government relies on a lot of reports from the ground. Doesn't always mean they are intentionally lying if they're repeat what their observers on the ground tell them. Russia still denies they are involved in Ukraine. Between Russia and Ukraine, I'd trust Ukraine's reports more.

[AC]

Ukraine's government relies on a lot of reports from the ground. Doesn't always mean they are intentionally lying if they're repeat what their observers on the ground tell them. Russia still denies they are involved in Ukraine. Between Russia and Ukraine, I'd trust Ukraine's reports more.

+1

[Muzh]

Agreed.  I am wondering if Canada has in fact quietly been giving Ukraine some of the weapons they need to defend themselves?

Even if our new Congress meets in January and agrees to help Ukraine, how long til they get the weapons?

Isn't that going against the will of the people?


Sniff, the smell of hypocrisy permeates the area.

[lordtiberius]

If you smell something, clean yourself.

[BillyB]

It's official, OSCE monitors have seen the tanks and trucks towing heavy artillery. Some of the tanks are T-72. Ukraine doesn't own that model and it's the first time they've been spotted in Ukraine. Rebels and Russia can't claim it's a tank that was previously acquired from the Ukrainian military. All military vehicles are unmarked and personnel operating vehicles are missing insignias. Reminds me of the little green men in Crimea nobody laid claim to.


http://news.yahoo.com/osce-very-concerned-tanks-convoys-ukraine-232831414.html

[calmissile]

It's official, OSCE monitors have seen the tanks and trucks towing heavy artillery. Some of the tanks are T-72. Ukraine doesn't own that model and it's the first time they've been spotted in Ukraine. Rebels and Russia can't claim it's a tank that was previously acquired from the Ukrainian military. All military vehicles are unmarked and personnel operating vehicles are missing insignias. Reminds me of the little green men in Crimea nobody laid claim to.


http://news.yahoo.com/osce-very-concerned-tanks-convoys-ukraine-232831414.html

Thanks for posting Billy.  I watched a video of them on another forum.

[lordtiberius]

And the world waits for Europe and the Nobel Peace Prize winner.

[AC]

And the world waits for Europe and the Nobel Peace Prize winner.

Since when does a guy "win" a Nobel Peace Prize for doing nothing?  Absolutely mind-boggling.