Ukraine is losing the war

[JayH]

Poroshenko did believe fighting would end the conflict but after realizing his military is no match for thugs assisted by a few thousand Russian soldiers and realizing Europe and possibly America will not use military means, only sanctions, to confront Russia, he understands he must negotiate with Russia or risk losing everything. There's no reason for Putin to negotiate since Putin knows Ukraine is his. The West made it clear on the type of punishment they will and will not use on Russia. Putin's willing to put up with the sanctions. NATO/America's military is the only thing that could stop him.


"Germany and EU partners have ruled out a military response to the conflict.

Earlier EU foreign ministers proposed that the bloc extend asset freezes and travel bans on individuals deemed responsible for hostilities in eastern Ukraine."


http://news.yahoo.com/eu-respond-large-military-offensive-ukraine-steinmeier-183330622--business.html

BB-- you keep trying to add 2 =@ to equal 122- You repeatedly lace your comments with incorrect unsubstantiated statements that you attribute to others.  Is it necessary to point out how illogical you are at every point>
Ukraine did not choose to be invaded--they have chosen to defend themselves from an invasion .You persist in making negative conclusions that are arguable--to say the least.

[Doll]

 

[Gator]

I don't think Russia is 'on the hook' any more than Ukraine.

This is where your position loses credence.      What would you have done 18 months ago if you were a patriotic Ukrainian? 

I agree that Ukraine took to the streets rather than wait for the next election.  If they waited however,  Russia would have set its talons even deeper into the Ukrainian flesh and even more would have been stolen from the government coffers.   It seems to me Ukrainians simply reached their limit and  said "We're as mad as hell, and we're not going to take this anymore!"

I've read many, many half-truths emanating from people with a different viewpoint than me.

Better than the article your cited.   Mendy was kind to suggest "half truth" as the Reuters report has nothing more that Putin's propaganda and sword rattling.  Do you believe that the Ukrainian military is America's and Europe's foreign legion?  Putin said such, so does that make it the truth?

Almost everyone has a different viewpoint than you.   No one agrees with your win-win (turn the other cheek).  No one! 

As Mendy wrote, you jump onto any news article that remotely resembles your position,  stretching your imagination to see a parallel.  How about being more thorough in your analysis, and maybe people would engage with you. 

[Doll]

Мэр Киева Виталий Кличко, выйдя к митингующим на Крещатик, решил подсчитать, когда украинская столица может быть «сдана Путину». Это странное высказывание он сделал перед людьми, которые собрались, чтобы потребовать выплаты зарплат бюджетникам, не повышать стоимость коммунальных услуг, проезда в общественном транспорте. Собравшиеся также требовали отставки самого Кличко и премьер-министра Яценюка.

 

«Сколько Путину нужно, чтобы доехать до Киева, взять Киев? Говорят, три часа, шесть часов, семь часов. Но ему не надо будет этого делать. Есть силы...», - на этих словах Кличко надолго замолчал, не закончив фразы. Протестующие так и не узнали, какие силы способны предотвратить мифическое «вторжение Путина» в Киев.

 

Акции протеста в Киеве начались накануне и продолжаются в четверг. 29 января около тысячи шахтеров перекрыли Крещатик, требуя выплаты зарплат.

 
 

[Muzh]

 

What does that shit say?

[Brasscasing]

What does that shit say?

It says it's better to live in Sand Hills, Nebraska than Mumbai, India.

Brass

[JayH]

Мэр Киева Виталий Кличко, выйдя к митингующим на Крещатик, решил подсчитать, когда украинская столица может быть «сдана Путину». Это странное высказывание он сделал перед людьми, которые собрались, чтобы потребовать выплаты зарплат бюджетникам, не повышать стоимость коммунальных услуг, проезда в общественном транспорте. Собравшиеся также требовали отставки самого Кличко и премьер-министра Яценюка.

 

«Сколько Путину нужно, чтобы доехать до Киева, взять Киев? Говорят, три часа, шесть часов, семь часов. Но ему не надо будет этого делать. Есть силы...», - на этих словах Кличко надолго замолчал, не закончив фразы. Протестующие так и не узнали, какие силы способны предотвратить мифическое «вторжение Путина» в Киев.

 

Акции протеста в Киеве начались накануне и продолжаются в четверг. 29 января около тысячи шахтеров перекрыли Крещатик, требуя выплаты зарплат.

 

Doll-- perhaps you should be noting that in Kiev-no protesters were shot--none were beaten-- none were arrested-- the media reported it on direct to air TV-- local politicians met the protesters-- that is called democracy and Ukrainians are free to voice their opinions.

[BillyB]

Ukraine did not choose to be invaded--they have chosen to defend themselves from an invasion .You persist in making negative conclusions that are arguable--to say the least.

You must have me mistaken for someone else. Where did I say Ukraine chose to be invaded? I did say on the forum numerous times they can't win alone against the foe that is currently invading them unless they get military help from the West.

[AC]

You must have me mistaken for someone else. Where did I say Ukraine chose to be invaded? I did say on the forum numerous times they can't win alone against the foe that is currently invading them unless they get military help from the West.

I think you are just being honest about the peril which Ukraine faces if they must battle a much larger foe alone.  Nothing unpatriotic, just the unvarnished truth.  Now if Ukraine is able to defeat any attempted advance by Putin alone that would be fantastic and I don't think it means you were "wrong" or something to that effect.  More likely it would mean that Putin did not commit all the resources he had.  Again I also don't mean this to be any sort of put down against Ukraine, I just think it's realistic to assume that they do need the more advanced and modern weaponry that they asked for.  Jay it seems you read too much into BB's honest analysis.

[Doll]

What does that shit say?

GOOGLE
 

[sleepycat]

GOOGLE
 

Do you really expect us to go through all that trouble just to get a dose of Putinist crap?
Come on Doll, I thought you were smarter than this? 

[Muzh]

GOOGLE
 

Actually, Brass gave the definition. Thanks Brass!! 


It was funny.

[fathertime]

Almost everyone has a different viewpoint than you.   No one agrees with your win-win (turn the other cheek).  No one! 

Actually I still think the outcome will be a version of the type of division of country I spoke of when the crisis started....Sure it probably won't be called a win-win at this late juncture...but the outcome may still be similar, and I still hold that if a negotiated division of the country occurred toward the beginning it would have been a win-win in comparison to what has now occurred, and what may still occur. 


Of course nobody will have to agree with me here, we will all be able to read what the eventual outcome will be and know the truth. 


Fathertime!   

[Doll]

Actually, 

 

Actually, you just don't get it

[Muzh]

Actually, you just don't get it

Oh, but you are wrong. I did.


Maybe you didn't?

[Gator]

... I still hold that if a negotiated division of the country occurred toward the beginning it would have been a win-win in comparison to what has now occurred, and what may still occur. 

And that is because Putin is such a fair negotiator.  He sure gave  Georgia a win-win. 

Of course nobody will have to agree with me here, we will all be able to read what the eventual outcome will be and know the truth. 

Sadly we may now be looking at the eventual outcome, at least while Putin is still alive and Ukraine has the will to defy him.

[Muzh]

Actually I still think the outcome will be a version of the type of division of country I spoke of when the crisis started....Sure it probably won't be called a win-win at this late juncture...but the outcome may still be similar, and I still hold that if a negotiated division of the country occurred toward the beginning it would have been a win-win in comparison to what has now occurred, and what may still occur. 


Of course nobody will have to agree with me here, we will all be able to read what the eventual outcome will be and know the truth. 


Fathertime!

I think you have no clue how this game is being played.


There is NOT going to be any negotiated division of the country. The home team knows what that would entail. The Russians have been playing this game, even when the Ukrainians were part of them, and they actively participated in the game.


They know that a chunk of the east will be followed by a chunk in the south to compliment the robbery down in the peninsula. And the Russians will not stop until the whole country is down on its knees.


Would you like to live under those circumstances?

[Gator]

It says it's better to live in Sand Hills, Nebraska than Mumbai, India.

Brass

I saw it differently.

The top photo announces a Russian government press release: 

"Russian citizens, you do not need to eat dirt because of sanctions.  Move from the cities to the Steppes where you can grow food for your family table."


The bottom photo says, "Your Russian government provides free transportation, and you will develop lovely suntans working in the fields."

[Doll]

 

[Muzh]

I know, I know this one.


It says, And then I grabbed his balls...

[Gator]

I know, I know this one.


It says, And then I grabbed his balls...

 

[fathertime]

I think you have no clue how this game is being played.


There is NOT going to be any negotiated division of the country. The home team knows what that would entail. The Russians have been playing this game, even when the Ukrainians were part of them, and they actively participated in the game.


They know that a chunk of the east will be followed by a chunk in the south to compliment the robbery down in the peninsula. And the Russians will not stop until the whole country is down on its knees.


Would you like to live under those circumstances?

You and many others feel that this will be the outcome...I don't think that is what is going to happen.  I think eventually a part of Ukraine will go west...and a sizable chunk will go east.   Of course we will say it was the 'tough sanctions' that stopped the progress, that way we all save face.   In any event, we shall find out sooner or later just how far the Russian's want to back up the rebels.  If Russia takes control of all of Ukraine, I will say you were right, but I don't see that happening. 

Would you like to live under those circumstances?

No I would not, but why isn't ALL of Ukraine in the streets fighting like hell.  Most of the videos I watch it appears to be a bunch of aloof people walking past dead bodies on their way to work or something, not as much outrage as one would expect. 


Fathertime!   

[AC]

I saw it differently.

The top photo announces a Russian government press release: 

"Russian citizens, you do not need to eat dirt because of sanctions.  Move from the cities to the Steppes where you can grow food for your family table."


The bottom photo says, "Your Russian government provides free transportation, and you will develop lovely suntans working in the fields."

 

[Muzh]

You and many others feel that this will be the outcome...I don't think that is what is going to happen.  I think eventually a part of Ukraine will go west...and a sizable chunk will go east.   Of course we will say it was the 'tough sanctions' that stopped the progress, that way we all save face.   In any event, we shall find out sooner or later just how far the Russian's want to back up the rebels.  If Russia takes control of all of Ukraine, I will say you were right, but I don't see that happening.

What do you call sizable? Because the Russians want to go a bit farther than Kyiv.


Now, think for a moment. Do you think that the western part of the country will take this peacefully?  Not to mention Kyiv proper.

No I would not, but why isn't ALL of Ukraine in the streets fighting like hell.  Most of the videos I watch it appears to be a bunch of aloof people walking past dead bodies on their way to work or something, not as much outrage as one would expect. 


Fathertime!

When the Russians try to take Kyiv, it will be a bloodbath. Think Nazis approaching Moscow in WWII and you'll get the idea.

[Doll]

Киев — Директор Европейского Института политической культуры, военный эксперт Александр Булавин отметил, что по официальной статистике уже более миллиона украинцев отказалась от мобилизации. Об этом он заявил в комментарии УНН.

По словам военного эксперта, настоящая цифра намного выше.

«Есть информация, что уже и Днепропетровская область также провалила мобилизацию. Вообще, уже звучала цифра, что около миллиона человек уже отказались от участия в боевых действиях. И эта цифра официальная. Настоящая цифра явно гораздо выше. И многие люди, не только те, кого призывают, но и те, кто работает в военных комиссариатах, и люди, которые занимаются реализацией, они также не уверены в том, что они выполняют верные приказы и поступают верно по этой мобилизации», — подчеркнул он.

Эксперт отметил, что согласно соцопросам большинство украинцев против военных действий.

«Любой солдат, который вступает в боевые действия — он продолжает войну, усиливает потери, усиливает беды. Ко всему, изменилась тональность Запада в СМИ, которая требует немедленного отвода тяжелой техники и прекращения военных действий. И я считаю, что оружием нельзя решить эти проблемы, которые есть на Донбассе. Это приводит к бедствиям в семьях, разрушениям инфраструктуры и затратам очень больших бюджетных средств», — пояснил Булавин.

Кроме того, эксперт считает, что сейчас любой юрист может легко доказать на законодательном уровне, что объявленная мобилизация является незаконной.

«Конечно первая причина почему мужчины не хотят идти воевать — это эмоциональная. Понимаете, продолжение войны приносит большие человеческие жертвы. И каждый человек, который принимает решение поступать в армию, опасается, что большое количество мирного населения на Донбассе погибает просто так. И они не хотели бы быть причастными к этому. Помимо всего прочего реальная боязнь за свою жизнь. Вспомните львовского журналиста, который говорил, что лучше сядет в тюрьму, чем пойдет на войну. Тем более, что сейчас есть тысяча адвокатов, которые легко могут доказать, что мобилизация, объявленная властью не является законной, ведь у нас даже военного положения нет», — заметил Булавин.

Напомним, как сообщает издание DW, все больше украинцев скрываются от мобилизации за рубежом. Кроме того, президент РФ Владимир Путин предложил увеличить срок пребывания на территории РФ для граждан Украины, особенно для мужчин призывного возраста.

В то же время в социальных сетях все чаще можно встретить призывы к уклонению от мобилизации.

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