Ukraine is losing the war

[AC]

Ah, AC, the guy that tries to get other men to fight his battles.  I love cowards like you who try to talk tough. 

However you came to this conclusion is simply bizarre; yet another example of your irrational thinking and inability to comprehend things in a logical manner.  This forum is an exchange of ideas, yet you keep trying to make it personal somehow.  Must be the inferiority complex kicking in again.   

Am I supposed to issue some sort of "challenge" to you to meet up, similar to LT?  And then what?  Once you're in the hospital you sue me like the little school girl that you are?  Nah, I'll pass on that one.

It's enough for me that you and fathertime keep waving a white flag of surrender for Ukraine, as if they don't have a right to self determine their future.  It's their choice who they associate with and it's their choice who they wish to receive weapons from.

[AC]

Closer ties to the EU did, and does not, necessarily mean distance from Russia.  That is why all of this is so silly and false.

This was certainly true initially, but now not many Ukrainians wish to have a further relationship with Russia.

[LiveFromUkraine]

However you came to this conclusion is simply bizarre; yet another example of your irrational thinking and inability to comprehend things in a logical manner.  This forum is an exchange of ideas, yet you keep trying to make it personal somehow.  Must be the inferiority complex kicking in again.   

Am I supposed to issue some sort of "challenge" to you to meet up, similar to LT?  And then what?  Once you're in the hospital you sue me like the little school girl that you are?  Nah, I'll pass on that one.

It's enough for me that you and fathertime keep waving a white flag of surrender for Ukraine, as if they don't have a right to self determine their future.  It's their choice who they associate with and it's their choice who they wish to receive weapons from.

I never said Ukraine should surrender.  I understand that doesn't fit your narrative, but at least you are consistent and not allowing facts to get in the way of your fantasy.  Yeah, yeah, you would put me in the hospital.  Funny man.  Keep that fantasy going!

This forum is an exchange of ideas, yet you keep trying to make it personal somehow.  Must be the inferiority complex kicking in again.

Oh man, I totally missed this part.  The irony of you telling me this really hits the funny bone.  Calling someone a Mental Midget is an exchange of ideas now.  haha  "Living in a fantasy"  Everyone sing.

[AkMike]

This was certainly true initially, but now not many Ukrainians wish to have a further relationship with Ukraine RUSSIA.

 FIFY! 

[LiveFromUkraine]

Closer ties to the EU did, and does not, necessarily mean distance from Russia.  That is why all of this is so silly and false.

If by closer ties to EU, you mean being admitted at some point it would change the relationship with Russia.  I imagine significantly due to the requirements that EU would require for admission. 

[Boethius]

Ukraine is a loooong way from EU membership.

[AkMike]

If by closer ties to EU, you mean being admitted at some point it would change the relationship with Russia.  I imagine significantly due to the requirements that EU would require for admission.

 Russia's already significantly changed the relationship with Ukraine.  it's hard to be friendly with someone that's held a gun to your back or a knife to your throat.

[LiveFromUkraine]

Ukraine is a loooong way from EU membership.

ha!  No doubt, but I was commenting on the long road forward and the changes that would be pushed during that walk down matrimony lane.

[AC]

 FIFY! 

Whoops!  Thanks Mike!

[LiveFromUkraine]

 Russia's already significantly changed the relationship with Ukraine.  it's hard to be friendly with someone that's held a gun to your back or a knife to your throat.

Yeah, Russia pretty much killed it and pushed Ukraine more and more into the EU.  It would be hard to come back from this.  I was talking about before all of this went down and how the move towards EU would change that relationship even if none of this happened.


Still, it will be interesting to see if that dynamic changes.  If Putin keep pushing these "rebels" in constant fighting while the EU/US allows it to happen, there may be a good chance that the opinion of EU/US changes.  Is it better to develop relationships with countries that won't help them out or go back to  Russia which also stops the constant fighting.

[fathertime]

It's enough for me that you and fathertime keep waving a white flag of surrender for Ukraine, as if they don't have a right to self determine their future.  It's their choice who they associate with and it's their choice who they wish to receive weapons from.

They are free to continue fighting...they may not demand weapons from anybody, and get those nations involved unless those 3rd party nations decide that is what they want to do.  If they would like to continue fighting then I say let them, although it appears most of the able bodied population is busy in nightclubs, and walking past the dead in the street like they are manikins.   I continue to hold that it is not OUR place (USA) to get ourselves entangled and risk a much wider/deadlier conflict. 


Fathertime!   

[Boethius]

If Putin keep pushing these "rebels" in constant fighting while the EU/US allows it to happen, there may be a good chance that the opinion of EU/US changes.  Is it better to develop relationships with countries that won't help them out or Russia that also stops the constant fighting.

But they have helped them out, with cash, at least.
I don't think Ukrainians will change their position.  They look at Russia's economy, and compare it with EU economies.
 
 

[AC]

This is the big problem with Russia. They don't understand that attraction is better than compulsion. That if they had an economy that was worth a sh!t other countries would be coming TO them rather than run away from them. Oil and gas is good but not enough. No one wants to buy a Lada.

I am very surprised to see you admit to this.  Well at least that is one thing we agree on!   

[AkMike]

  I was talking about before all of this went down and how the move towards EU would change that relationship even if none of this happened.

Shudda, coulda, woulda. At this point in time it's never going to happen so why speculate?

 If Russia keeps shoving harder it will further divide the countries. There will be no returning to the 'good old days' of brotherhood.

[jone]

This picture, worth a a thousand words, was taken in Lugansk:

[LiveFromUkraine]

Shudda, coulda, woulda. At this point in time it's never going to happen so why speculate?

 If Russia keeps shoving harder it will further divide the countries. There will be no returning to the 'good old days' of brotherhood.

I was responding to Bo's comment.  For some reason, I typically assume the conversation is taken in context before others respond.


No speculation needed, there would be changes to Russia's relationship if Ukraine moved toward implementing changes need to join EU. 

[Boethius]

The changes would not change Ukraine's relationship with Russia.  In fact, they should be considered as positives, as for one, gas could no longer be stolen by oligarchs.

The change would only occur if Ukraine was admitted to the EU.  That is decades down the road, if ever.
 

[LiveFromUkraine]

The changes would not change Ukraine's relationship with Russia.  In fact, they should be considered as positives, as for one, gas could no longer be stolen by oligarchs.

The change would only occur if Ukraine was admitted to the EU.  That is decades down the road, if ever.

I disagree that it would only occur if Ukraine is admitted.  Ukraine would have to make significant changes prior to being admitted. 


Wasn't Russia already balking at the trade agreement between EU and Ukraine because of quality standards being imposed on that agreement?  I think Russia was also complaining about trade tariffs as well.  Those types of problems would be just the beginning.

[jone]

Russian Airforce Jets just attacked Ukrainian forces near Debal'Tseve.  The price of poker just went up.

[LiveFromUkraine]

Russian Airforce Jets just attacked Ukrainian forces near Debal'Tseve.  The price of poker just went up.

Looks like Putin is all in now. 


Edited:  Kyivpost says that is false.  You have another source?

http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/ukrainian-military-refutes-reports-of-russia-air-strikes-on-ukraine-positions-near-debeltseve-380076.html

[jone]

I cannot imagine committing the troops that Russia has, without supporting them.  To me it was criminal that he was not supporting his people and that they were getting killed.  He was trying to have his cake and eat it too.  This will have significant consequences in the decision making process of the European Nations as well as the US.

I have said it before, and I will say it again.  Ukraine is a nation of 44 million people.   This is not Georgia or Chechnya.  This is the lid to Pandora's box.

[Boethius]

I disagree that it would only occur if Ukraine is admitted.  Ukraine would have to make significant changes prior to being admitted. 


Wasn't Russia already balking at the trade agreement between EU and Ukraine because of quality standards being imposed on that agreement?  I think Russia was also complaining about trade tariffs as well.  Those types of problems would be just the beginning.

I believe the EU agreed to stop some implementations that would have immediate impact on Russia.

[Boethius]

I cannot imagine committing the troops that Russia has, without supporting them.  To me it was criminal that he was not supporting his people and that they were getting killed.  He was trying to have his cake and eat it too.  This will have significant consequences in the decision making process of the European Nations as well as the US.

I have said it before, and I will say it again.  Ukraine is a nation of 44 million people.   This is not Georgia or Chechnya.  This is the lid to Pandora's box.

I'm fairly certain he is a sociopath who doesn't care if his troops are killed.  Were he not, the second Chechen war would not have occurred.

[fathertime]

Russian Airforce Jets just attacked Ukrainian forces near Debal'Tseve.  The price of poker just went up.

Sources?


Fathertime!

[JayH]

ATO headquarters denied information about Russian air strike aircraft near DebaltseveInformation about air strikes by Russian aircraft on the positions of forces under the ATO Debaltseve Donetsk region does not correspond to reality.

This was reported in the headquarters of the ATO, reports Interfax-Ukraine .

"No air strikes was not. Moreover, there is now non-flying weather, so the information is not true," - said in a statement.


Earlier media reported that at about 14.00 on Monday on the outpost forces under ATO Debaltseve 4 stormtrooper Russian Air Force Su-25 delivers an air strike.

http://nv.ua/ukraine/shtab-ato-oproverg-informaciyu-ob-aviaudare-rossiyskih-samoletov-bliz-debalcevo-33529.html