yet another reflection on Photoguy's K-1 experience

[PeeWee]

It's your lucky day Peewee 

This is what the law has to say
TITLE 8--ALIENS AND NATIONALITY

  * CHAPTER 12--IMMIGRATION AND NATIONALITY
    o SUBCHAPTER II--IMMIGRATION
     + PART II--ADMISSION QUALIFICATIONS FOR ALIENS; TRAVEL CONTROL OF CITIZENS AND ALIENS

Sec. 1184. Admission of nonimmigrants

(a) Regulations

(9)(d) Issuance of visa to fiancee or fiance of citizen

    A visa shall not be issued under the provisions of section
1101(a)(15)(K)(i) of this title until the consular officer has received
a petition filed in the United States by the fiancee and fiance of the
applying alien and approved by the Attorney General. The petition shall
be in such form and contain such information as the Attorney General
shall, by regulation, prescribe. It shall be approved only after
satisfactory evidence is submitted by the petitioner to establish that
the parties have previously met in person within 2 years before the date
of filing the petition, have a bona fide intention to marry, and are
legally able and actually willing to conclude a valid marriage in the
United States within a period of ninety days after the alien's arrival,
except that the Attorney General in his discretion may waive the
requirement that the parties have previously met in person. In the event
the marriage with the petitioner does not occur within three months
after the admission of the said alien and minor children, they shall be
required to depart from the United States and upon failure to do so
shall be removed in accordance with sections 1229a and 1231 of this
title.

Plain and simple. The intent to marry has to be the reason for the visa.

Peewee

[Scooter]

I just read the reflections thread.

It seems like guys gave photo advice that he ignored at his peril. Like meeting the parents. If the parents were so selfish, and larissa so beholden to them that they would put this pressure on her, then obviously ignoring the advice was a bad move. While meeting them may not have made them buddies, it would have shown an unhealthy relationship. What is sad, even after this was made obvious by the events, Photo still justifies it. I read also that he said if he had followed so-and-so's advice, he would have dumped her for a mayriad of reasons, and then seems to think that proves HIM right. Actually, maybe these reasons were good ones, red flags that I have been reading about.

I think the main thing here though, is the 52 year old virgin syndrome. OK, maybe not a virgin, but at that age and having had no serious and reciprocated love affair shows serious psychological issues with the ability to form intimate relationships. Add to that the utter lack of experience in dealing with women, he could not possibly recognize signs, nor take hints, nor distinguish normal female moodiness from her lack of interest. If you cannot figure out US women, how on Earth can you figure out a woman from another culture? Photo lacks the basic skills to read body language, tone of voice, anything that folks with even a little experience have.

How do you cure a 52 year old virgin?

[Michelangelo]

Since most countries practice tit-for-tat diplomacy, I have been waiting for the US to soften the visa regime somewhat, in light of Ukraine having softened theirs for US citizens - but I guess with the memory of 9/11 still so fresh, security concerns are overwhelming other diplomatic interests at the moment.- Dan

It's already happening, Dan.  Here is a quote form the US Embassy in Kiev...   http://kiev.usembassy.gov/visa_nonimmigrantvisas_eng.html

WHAT TO EXPECT ON THE DAY OF YOUR VISA INTERVIEW...

Please note that as of July 1, 2005, there are no visa issuance fees for Ukrainian citizens. Both single-entry visas (valid for six months) and multiple-entry visas (valid for five years) are free of charge. There are no visa issuance fees for any other nonimmigrant visa category for Ukrainian citizens, with the exception of blanket L (intra-company transfer) visas, for which a USD500 processing fee is assessed.

So no visa issuance fees for Ukrainians anymore 

[KenC]

I just read the reflections thread.

It seems like guys gave photo advice that he ignored at his peril. Like meeting the parents. If the parents were so selfish, and Larisa so beholden to them that they would put this pressure on her, then obviously ignoring the advice was a bad move. While meeting them may not have made them buddies, it would have shown an unhealthy relationship. What is sad, even after this was made obvious by the events, Photo still justifies it. I read also that he said if he had followed so-and-so's advice, he would have dumped her for a myriad of reasons, and then seems to think that proves HIM right. Actually, maybe these reasons were good ones, red flags that I have been reading about.

I think the main thing here though, is the 52 year old virgin syndrome. OK, maybe not a virgin, but at that age and having had no serious and reciprocated love affair shows serious psychological issues with the ability to form intimate relationships. Add to that the utter lack of experience in dealing with women, he could not possibly recognize signs, nor take hints, nor distinguish normal female moodiness from her lack of interest. If you cannot figure out US women, how on Earth can you figure out a woman from another culture? Photo lacks the basic skills to read body language, tone of voice, anything that folks with even a little experience have.

How do you cure a 52 year old virgin?

Good question Scooter,
I think the answer is, you can't. You especially cannot "cure" a man that has the unique blend of arrogance and naivety as Photo. Proof is in his "Assorted wisdom" thread. The guy doesn't only not know he is out of touch with reality, but he even thinks he is wise enough to advise others! A sample:

Hey, many of us have words of wisdom, and as in my case, even the guys who have known very few RW can impart some useful advice for the rest of us. I've read some very informative posts from the likes of Bruno, KenC, Elen, MandM, jb, BC, and even Anono, to name a few. I think those who put-down and degrade others are total bastards, but hey, that's just my opinion. Take what I say with a grain of salt, or glean some insight. Either you have an open-minded attitude, or you're a swaggering authoritarian. The choice is yours.

I'm 52. I've experienced a lot in the last half-century.

Later in that thread he claimed to have some sort of psychic connection with Larisa that transcended the ability to speak to each other. Whatever.

On the parent issue. I don't know if it is "selfish" of a parent to want their child close at hand. I do know that there should be some groundwork laid before you ask your RW to leave her parents behind. This is especially true when there is a large age difference. This is often overlooked by Photo and his followers. A man of 52 should have the sense to do at least a little sucking up to the parents of his 20 (something) year old girlfriend before whisking her away to the other side of the world. I know that Photo has claimed that meeting Larisa in Kiev was all her idea, but it is he that seemed to make the actual call when on 1/30/05 he posted:

Larisa suggested that we meet in Kyiv or Odesa, but said
her home city of Mariupol would be alright if that's what
I wanted. I think she thinks it would be more fun to be
away from (her) home, like away on a vacation

.

Of course he totally blew off the next post as nonsense:

jb wrote:
FWIW, a flat in her home town would be the ideal solution to this problem.  Now that you have established a phone call connection with this woman, when you meet you will want to develop the relationship as rapidly as possible.  She might like a vacation in Odessa or Kyiv but you might want to save the vacation spots for a later visit. 

Right now you are not taking a vacation, you are on a mission.

There was plenty of friendly wise advice that was offered again and again, but ignored. Even worse than ignored, he would ridicule the advisers and claim to be more "in tune" with the situation. You are also correct that there was no failure that couldn't be justified in his mind. Naw, a happy marriage was never the goal, I just wanted to get to know her anyway. Whatever.
KenC

[KenC]

It's your lucky day Peewee 

This is what the law has to say
TITLE 8--ALIENS AND NATIONALITY

  * CHAPTER 12--IMMIGRATION AND NATIONALITY
    o SUBCHAPTER II--IMMIGRATION
     + PART II--ADMISSION QUALIFICATIONS FOR ALIENS; TRAVEL CONTROL OF CITIZENS AND ALIENS

Sec. 1184. Admission of nonimmigrants

(a) Regulations

(9)(d) Issuance of visa to fiancee or fiance of citizen

    A visa shall not be issued under the provisions of section
1101(a)(15)(K)(i) of this title until the consular officer has received
a petition filed in the United States by the fiancee and fiance of the
applying alien and approved by the Attorney General. The petition shall
be in such form and contain such information as the Attorney General
shall, by regulation, prescribe. It shall be approved only after
satisfactory evidence is submitted by the petitioner to establish that
the parties have previously met in person within 2 years before the date
of filing the petition, have a bona fide intention to marry, and are
legally able and actually willing to conclude a valid marriage in the
United States within a period of ninety days after the alien's arrival,
except that the Attorney General in his discretion may waive the
requirement that the parties have previously met in person. In the event
the marriage with the petitioner does not occur within three months
after the admission of the said alien and minor children, they shall be
required to depart from the United States and upon failure to do so
shall be removed in accordance with sections 1229a and 1231 of this
title.

Jet,
Base on the law, is there some document where the couple has to swear to these conditions? (I don't know because I never filed for a K-1) What Doug did was a clear abuse of the system, but was it visa fraud?
KenC

[KenC]

FWIW the gal I'm meeting in Denver on the 29th is coming from Moscow on a "work visa" as a teacher, English no less!! And really had my reservations that she actually pulled this off (no one under 30, without "Stability" is able to get a tourist visa to America - or so they tell me) - But, today is only the 24th LOL - 5 more days, and we'll see if she was for real or not - :noidea:

After 911, I think we've all seen the visa process tighten up a bit.... I know they gave me the 3rd degree at LAX when re-entering - and I'm 100% born and raised American!!

There are tons of RW that come for the summer and work the tourist areas. I have seen many of them at popular tourist areas and amusment/theme parks. We have even met a couple of young Russians that got a work visa for a local restaurant here in San Diego.

Eight years ago, everyone I spoke to here in America and everyone Lena spoke to in Russia, told us that there was no way for her to obtain a student visa. I studied the rquirements, spoke to an immigration attorney and figured WTF, we will never know unless we try. She got it and the rest is history.
KenC

[BC]

Jet,
Base on the law, is there some document where the couple has to swear to these conditions? (I don't know because I never filed for a K-1) What Doug did was a clear abuse of the system, but was it visa fraud?
KenC

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visa_fraud

Referenced, possibly applicable links:

http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode18/usc_sec_18_00001546----000-.html

Whoever knowingly makes under oath, or as permitted under penalty of perjury under section 1746 of title 28, United States Code, knowingly subscribes as true, any false statement with respect to a material fact in any application, affidavit, or other document required by the immigration laws or regulations prescribed thereunder, or knowingly presents any such application, affidavit, or other document which contains any such false statement or which fails to contain any reasonable basis in law or fact—
Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 25 years (if the offense was committed to facilitate an act of international terrorism (as defined in section 2331 of this title)), 20 years (if the offense was committed to facilitate a drug trafficking crime (as defined in section 929 (a) of this title)), 10 years (in the case of the first or second such offense, if the offense was not committed to facilitate such an act of international terrorism or a drug trafficking crime), or 15 years (in the case of any other offense), or both.

http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode18/usc_sec_18_00001001----000-.html

(a) Except as otherwise provided in this section, whoever, in any matter within the jurisdiction of the executive, legislative, or judicial branch of the Government of the United States, knowingly and willfully—
(1) falsifies, conceals, or covers up by any trick, scheme, or device a material fact;
(2) makes any materially false, fictitious, or fraudulent statement or representation; or
(3) makes or uses any false writing or document knowing the same to contain any materially false, fictitious, or fraudulent statement or entry;
shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 5 years, or both.

I-129F states at the bottom:

PENALTIES: You may by law be imprisoned for not more than five years, or fined $250,000, or both, for entering into a marriagecontract for the purpose of evading any provision of the immigration laws, and you may be fined up to $10,000 or imprisoned up to fiveyears, or both, for knowingly and willfully falsifying or concealing a material fact or using any false document in submitting this petition.
YOUR CERTIFICATION: I am legally able to and intend to marry my alien fiancé(e) within 90 days of his or her arrival in the UnitedStates. I certify, under penalty of perjury under the laws of the United States of America, that the foregoing is true and correct.Furthermore, I authorize the release of any information from my records that the U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services needs todetermine eligibility for the benefit that I am seeking.

[Bruno]

Very good info BC !!!

But i don't think that he apply to the "Doug case"... If i good understand the Doug post, he was ready to marry Larisa, it is Larisa who have choose to return home and not marry... If Larisa have say "yes", i am almost sure that Doug will be married now... And in his last topic, he have not loose the hope that it will happen one day...

If i was in the Doug skin, i will totally forget Larisa now... Maybe she is a good friend but she have not show the wish to marry him... You have enough women in FSU to seek one who really wish marry you... why loose month or maybe year waiting that Larisa ( and his parents ) change of mind and agree to marry... at 52 year old, each year count...

Comment what have happen will never change the past... Doug is always looking at the past with dreaming eyes... He need to turn his regard to a new future... If people will really help him, don't need to comment his past "mistakes"... Making him understand that Larisa story is finish, is the real help... They can stay friend but the time for marriage is over...

In some way, it is Larisa who have fraud with the K1 visa, and Doug was only the tool used for make these K1... Doug have wish marry, she was not sure... She have choice to return home and not marry...

Curious to know how much K1 from FSU don't conclude by marriage... in one year, we have already two know case on these forum : PhotoGuy and TurboGuy... maybe more...

[BC]

Bruno,

I am not insinuating someone broke the law and I think it would be quite difficult to prove his true intentions at the time he signed any document. Just responding to a question that KenC asked.

Interesting though:

http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=1844.msg37172#msg37172

[Bruno]

I am not insinuating someone broke the law.. just responding to a question that KenC asked.

BC, only the first line of the previous post was for you 

The rest is more a personal reflexion not related to you post specialy !

[Jet]

Jet,
Base on the law, is there some document where the couple has to swear to these conditions? (I don't know because I never filed for a K-1) What Doug did was a clear abuse of the system, but was it visa fraud?
KenC

Umm, yeah, it was 

From the I-129 instructions which get downloaded with the application form:

5. What Documents Do You Need to Prove That You Can Legally Marry?

A.) Provide original statements from you and your fiancé(e) whom you plan to marry within 90 days of his or her admission, and copies of any evidence you wish to submit to establish your mutual intent; and

The standard affidavit most often used looks like this:

LETTER OF INTENT TO MARRY

Date__________________

To US Immigration and Naturalization Service:
I, Photodude Xxxxx XXXXXX, do hereby state that I am legally able and willing to marry Larissa Xxxxxxx XXXXXXX, and intend to do so within 90 days of her entry into the United States using the K-1 Visa.
Signed,


_____________________
Photodude

(Notory Stamp/seal here)

[jb]

Well done, Jet, and BC, I was about to post the same data.  It's interesting that in our PC world, we no longer swear to tell the truth on these documents we have to sign, we now "Certify" under the threat of penalty we are telling the truth.

I've often wondered how one goes about this with a girl he cannot talk to, it beats the hell outta me??? Did he use an interperter to translate the specific words into Russian?  "Larissa, my darling, I have decided I cannot live without you, please marry me and make me the happiest man in the world?".  Or,,, did he simply say:  "Hey, why don't you come for a visit and see if you would like to live in Phoenix?".  The first is a clear intent to marry, the second is clearly fraud.

[BC]

yeah jb.. it would be quite difficult to support both scenarios you posed..  I'd love to hear the response but don't think it will be forthcoming.

[Voyageur]

So then that would mean that everyone who has had an unsuccessful K1 experience should be considered a criminal or law-breaker? 

I had an unsuccessful K1 visa experience.  I filled out the affidavit form and had good intentions to marry. But it did not work out. Fortunately, my second K-1 visa worked out great, and I am very happy in my marriage.  I learned allot from my past experience and am so lucky that I did not marry the first woman who came here.  It would have been a disaster.  But I did sign the affidavit, so maybe I should have married this woman anyway?

Others have also had this happen to them.  Maybe we should round all of the failed K-1 visa boys and report them to the nearest USCIS officer???

[BC]

I had an unsuccessful K1 visa experience.  I filled out the affidavit form and had good intentions to marry. But it did not work out.

Voyageur,

It's your intent that that makes the difference.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intent  -->> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mens_rea

Interesting in the concepts portion of mens rea:

* Intention is where the accused has a clear foresight of the consequences of his or her actions and desires those consequences to occur.

* Recklessness is where the accused foresees that particular consequences may occur and proceeds with the given conduct not caring whether those consequences actually occur or not.

* Criminal negligence occurs where the accused did not actually foresee that the particular consequences would flow from his or her actions but the reasonable man, in the same circumstances, would have foreseen those consequences.

I would agree that anyone that has not proposed or did not receive a clearly affirmative response (maybe like 'well we'll see how it goes) by the above definition acted at least recklessly. 

[Son of Clyde]

Yes I know about the hundreds of college age Russians who come to the US and work at the resorts in summertime.
I think they may have all been sponsored by a corporation that is in the business of providing cheap labor. Maybe these young people will work a lot cheaper than Americans of the same age. Maybe they are here on student visas also.
It was my understanding that a single female cannot just decide she wants to tour the US or come here to find a job. She needs to be more specific. It is not easy for these people without a sponsor or company sponsorship. Americans can cross the pond to the UK anytime we choose. We can spend months there with no problem, maybe even work part-time. We do not need a sponsor to go to UK, parts of Europe, Canada or Mexico. Why is a young Russian woman not allowed to come to the US on vacation? I know there are rare instances it is allowed, but what is the criteria?

[BC]

Why is a young Russian woman not allowed to come to the US on vacation? I know there are rare instances it is allowed, but what is the criteria?

That's easy.. Money to support the trip and a darn good reason to go back home.

[jb]

Clyde,

Foreign workers are here on work visas, most commonly, the H1B visa.  This visa requires corporate sponsorship and can cost the sponsoring company up to $10,000 in BCIS fees, depending on the salary level the worker will earn.  This visa is not generally easily obtained as the worker and company must demonstrate the individual possesses skills not readily available on the American job market.

Foreign students who are here in a certified degree program, OTOH, can work part time in school sponsored jobs on campus, say, for example, at the college book store, cafeteria, or housekeeping and maintenance departments, during the school year.  During summer vacation, and during in between semester breaks, the student can work off campus with a work permit.  Unauthorized employment can result in the revocation of the I-20 and the loss of student status.  After, and upon successful graduation, the INS can, and often does, grant a 1 year adjustment to the student visa which allows the recent grad a chance to work in his or her field to gain practical work experience.  If during that 1 year period the graduate gains employment with a company which is willing to sign off on the H1B and pay the fees, the transition can be made to the higher level visa, which is good for, I believe, 3 years. If the person fails to obtain a permament job and get the H1B, he or she has a 60 day grace period to conclude their affairs and return to their native homeland.

Other work programs, such as Au Pare, (Nannies), and entertainment fields are sometimes given very restrictive work permits.  For example, there is a cruise ship that is based here in Corpus that employs many foreign workers, they are given living quarters on board ship and are not allowed off the vessel except for going to and from their home country. 

There are several such programs that allow workers to come and go, however none of those visa programs are intended to give the foreigner a chance to meet and marry while engaged in said employment, thus they are rarely discussed in a marriage oriented forum.

[Jet]

maybe even work part-time.

Damn well better not be cought working under the visa waiver program; US Citizen travelling to UK/EU or UK/EU citizen travelling to US. There are stiff penalties in either direction.

[catzenmouse]

Curious to know how much K1 from FSU don't conclude by marriage... in one year, we have already two know case on these forum : PhotoGuy and TurboGuy... maybe more...

 There it is! Right in front of us the whole time... It's the word "guy" in the screen name that causes all the problems. How could we have been so blind all this time! So when CarGuy or FlyGuy join us we don't need to bother with them. The story is a foregone conclusion...

Ken

[jb]

Ken,

I believe you are on to something....

Which gives us to wonder,,, since a turbo is something driven entirely by it's own exhaust gasses, if TurboGuy is operating on his own exhaust gas, is it there any question why he has been so unsuccessful?

(just yanking your chain, T/G)

[PeeWee]

I know that Lena's son is now working in NY on a 4 month program. He and 3 other teenagers from his city applied for this program. They were given jobs, a visa, and a one way ticket to NY. When their work ends they will be given a ticket to return home. This is his second year with his involvement in this program. I believe that his mother told me that he would be doing construction of some sort. In another thread it was told to me what programs this was. I mention it now because it sounds something like what Clyde had mentioned.

Peewee

[jb]

You can read and educate yourself about temporary work visas at:

http://www.uscis.gov/graphics/services/tempbenefits/TempWorker.htm

[Ste]

I know that Lena's son is now working in NY on a 4 month program. He and 3 other teenagers from his city applied for this program. They were given jobs, a visa, and a one way ticket to NY. When their work ends they will be given a ticket to return home. This is his second year with his involvement in this program. I believe that his mother told me that he would be doing construction of some sort. In another thread it was told to me what programs this was. I mention it now because it sounds something like what Clyde had mentioned.

Peewee

Is that not the Work and Study Scheme, Peewee?

Almost all of Nadia's ex-classmates at her old uni have been to USA on this scheme, Nadia being the class Anglophile tried the same for the UK version but although we have it, no-one actually ever got a job on it!

Ste 

[Bruce]

It is fairly easy for a college aged girl to get a work visa to the USA for summer employment.  There are different agencies which pay for the girls round trip ticket and give them employment in various sleep away camps and girl scout camps which also pay the girls a small stipend of money as well.  There are other agencies that the Russian student would pay a small fee plus said round trip airfare that will help them process the visa and find them employment in the USA (I think it is about $1600 dollars, so the girls have to work and save or have rich parents for this).  My wife's sister is coming on the second program this summer.  This program enables them to earn alot more money.  The resort jobs / Disney world type jobs are premium for this type of worker so they go fast.  My wifes sister went to work in a girl scout camp when she was 19.  Now she will be working for an insurance company this summer at age 21.  If you think about it, even with minimum wage on a 40 hour week they earn about $250 per week - so in three months they get $3000.  Usually they are able to come home with at least $500 in their pockets.  Some of the girls hustle and work Friday nights through Sunday waiting tables, bar tending etc. to earn even alot more. If they do not like their employment they are allowed to switch to other employment but I believe according to their visa they have five days upon entry to the USA to begin working.  I am not sure of the class of visa but I could find out in early June when she gets here.  She is lucky because we will host her ie. she has no room and board worries.