Principles before personalities

[andrewfi]

Tim ~ Your examples actually make my point quite well. These women were able to make the journey under their own steam, They had the wherewithal to to look after themselves and asa result were able to find mates who suited them. The priority was not, therefore, finding a foreign guy, but findng a guy from their new environment who fitted their lifetime needs. I would be willing to bet large sums that the guys were not looking for a 'Russian Wife'. If they had been able to go to Russia to find these womne, they would not have found them anyway. Almost certainly these womne would have had no need for them, or interest in them at the time they were still there.

TG ~ It is nice to think we we were all gifted equally but differently. But that does not alter my point one jot. If a guy has no money he can not afford to go to russia in search of a bride. He is not equal to youin this regard.
If a guy is old, he is unlikley to find a young woman who loves him for himself and not his pension fund, or income - he is thus not equal to a younger guy.
The younger guy is probably not equal to the older guy in respect of financial stability. It thus makes perfect sense to suggest that, on practical grounds alone, that a foreign bride is not for everyone, or available to everyone. It does searcher any favours to sugar coat that reality, although each must make his own choices in resepct of the adequacy of his resources.

[coco]

First, no one have buy the other... it is a association between Arcelor with Severstal... and Severstal is not the first russian group but the second... of course, the result is interesting, Severstal and Arcelor will form the first mondial group... final decision in June !

www.russia-media.ru/ scroll to Severstal

[BC]

jb,  "However, in this case, and I think we are talking about the same case, there are times when we must realize that a RW wife is not for everybody."

I can't argue with that a bit, but I don't think it is for you or anyone here to decide who is eligible for a Russian woman and who is not. 

[/b]

Turbo,

As it relates to the topic of this thread, I think statements similar to those above like 'it's not for anyone to decide' or 'we are all equal' are quite noble, but the principle is that each of us looking at a situation will have an opinion and form a response that expresses it.

Lets take another example:

I think I have expressed my opinion to you in the past that 'I believe your chances of finding a good RW would be greater if you don't try.'  I've used this phrase or similar also with others from time to time.

How does the expression of my opin differ in principle with that of jb, or Andrew's intent?. Shouldn't my statement to you also be objectionable? 

Of course jb, Andrew, I and all the many others have no 'power' to decide or to adjudicate how others must live their lives just as I have no power to force you to stop actively looking for a RW. Where do you see this power?

You often state that you are in position to deal with whatever is thrown at you on the board. You call it 'thick skin' or whatever but I consider it quite normal and necessary to be able to accept critique and opin without letting the personalities of the posters get in the way. This is a quality we all should carry with us when clicking on a forum link. 

[tim 360]

Exactly Andrew. I tried to be brief. The guys had no previous inkling about RW's. And none of the girls had any agenda to marry an American guy. The guys spent zero time on MOB boards etc. The guys spent zero time paying agencies and writing letter after letter. Did not spend hours gleaning profiles and photos. Just by random causality and happenstance each guy met each girl and became interested and began a normal relationship cycle which has a foundation. It takes time. Each girl was actually pre-qualified just by coming here and all are quite bright.

[jb]

jb,  "However, in this case, and I think we are talking about the same case, there are times when we must realize that a RW wife is not for everybody."

I can't argue with that a bit, but I don't think it is for you or anyone here to decide who is eligible for a Russian woman and who is not.

Why not?  Maybe not for us to actually do the deciding and girl picking for him, or to determine real eligibility for the general public, however, if we as fellow board members, who have been there and done that, don't bother pointing out the fallacy in an errant brother's ways, pray tell, who will?  I'd wager a small sum on the likelyhood that fully 3/4's or more of those engaged in these letter writing campaigns do not share the facts or regale anyone with stories of the charms of a MOB Barbie Doll they've met on-line, with anyone in their usual social circle.  Why don't they share this info with their friends and co-workers?  Because most will fear the taint of an unkind public preception of the MOB idea will draw unwarranted criticism.  I can only imagine the peals of laughter coming from around the office water cooler as the "office buddies" rehashed that story for the 10th time.  The odds of him getting that same very friendly advice from his friends over a beer and B-B-Q are slim to none.

No one wants to be thought of as a fool, that's why most come to a site like this one.  Here they can let their hair down and hopefully, if he has his head screwed on right, find a sense of camaraderie among others of like mind.  They ask questions and receive answers, that's the spirit and thrust of such a board.  However, when an inexperienced newbie begins to reject advice out of hand, and to question the motives of the veteran traveler, then he's apt to get his hand slapped, verbally, of course.  We've seen this before.

Now it's Saturday evening and I'd like to suggest we find out why a few of our members are so staunchly defending the 20+ year age difference.  Here's a challenge for all you 45 - 55+ guys still looking, tonight you should get yourself all cleaned and dolled up, put on your best casual fare, splash on your most alluring after-shave, trot on down to your local hot-spot disco/bar & grill/whatever, time your arrival for about 10:30 so the local gals have had a chance to get a bit sloshed, (betters the odds), pick out the most attractive 20 something year old girl in the house and have a go at her.  I'd love to hear the actual results of such an activity, but I doubt it will happen.  This would be an object lesson in realistic expectations.  Any takers?

[PeeWee]

I'm on my way, jb. As soon as I locate my set of choppers, my cane (walkers are for old farts), my map out of the Senior Center, the keys to my Buick, take a nap, catch the first 20 minutes of Lawrence Welk (those Lennon sisters are hot patutie), get my gumption up with a swaller of my Geritol...what did I forget?  Oh...and take short nap. Then I am ready to rock.

Peewee

[Jumper]

LOL peewee!

John , even though i'm under the age range a bit,,
 i'm up for it!!  but the wife might not appreciate the effort , regardless the end results,
even if it was purely in the name of scientific research for humanitarian reasons! 

The counter point is:
if those guys had some * game* , and hit on every *availible*  woman that interested  them  each day, they probably wouldnt be here reading

being that out-going increases thier odds exponentially?
much like traveling to the FSU does.

just my lousy theory but i think many simply travel to the FSU,
 because it seems  easier, or rather less embarrassing or uncomfortable ,
 than wading thru being shot down at home a few times..
(yes its just a generalization, men have all kinds of reasons for looking in the FSU)

One of my buddies has always been a bit of a cad and a character,a bit of the old pirate swagger..and he will bluntly hit on anything that moves and no mincing of words..LOL
 does he offend a lot of women , yeap.
do most flat reject his advances ? yeap.
does this very average, out of shape man, do pretty well in comparison to most guys, absolutely.
 his theory is if you hit on every single woman, all they can say is yes or no,, or at the most extreem a slap..lol
and if only 1 out of a 100 say yes,, well then hit on 200!
cant argue the effectiveness..lol
 The caveat is he isnt looking for marriage, but the point is he increases his exposer about a hundred fold over the average guy and it works in the context..

Going to the FSU is similar for some guys?
perhaps  it avoids the nessisity of being out-going to increase your exposer?
and at least initially circumvents the absolute certainty of a certain % rejection rate , which some people dont handle well..? its uncomfortable for most anyone.a bit of human nature to avoid it if possible?


more silly random thoughts from AJ...

[catzenmouse]

jb,

 There are some times where I read your posts and think "Ouch that was harsh" but when I read a post like this I know why I always read what you say and spend a bit of time thinking about it. That was right on the money and I saw myself in the reactions I got when I was in the looking stage. I never hid what I was doing from others. I had pictures up in my "Dilbert" cube of the ladies I was writing too and I got a LOT of condescending attitudes (especially from the women) and a lot of Attaboy or Shakes of the Head from the guys but it did not matter to me or deter me as I knew what I wanted and what I would accept. I spent a lot of time considering this option before I jumped in but when I did jump in I did not give a single damn what those who did not know anything about it thought. I wonder how many who are doing the letter writing are doing in it secret to "save face" when they find out they are not able to follow through on the fantasy.

Ken

[jb]

AJ said:

The counter point is:
if those guys had some * game* , and hit on every *availible*  woman that interested  them  each day, they probably wouldnt be here reading

My point, exactly.

Ken,

If you were open and above board with friends and co-worker about all this, then you are indeed an honest man, I salute you.
However, I doubt that you travel in the usual well oiled circles because I don't think you represent the average.  I'll bet most of these guys are doing it on the sly.

[Turboguy]

Now it's Saturday evening and I'd like to suggest we find out why a few of our members are so staunchly defending the 20+ year age difference.  Here's a challenge for all you 45 - 55+ guys still looking, tonight you should get yourself all cleaned and dolled up, put on your best casual fare, splash on your most alluring after-shave, trot on down to your local hot-spot disco/bar & grill/whatever, time your arrival for about 10:30 so the local gals have had a chance to get a bit sloshed, (betters the odds), pick out the most attractive 20 something year old girl in the house and have a go at her.  I'd love to hear the actual results of such an activity, but I doubt it will happen.  This would be an object lesson in realistic expectations.  Any takers?

It might be easier than you think.   I am past the 45-55 age you talked about but from 45 -49 my American live in girlfriend was 21.  She was followed by a 30 year old who was followed by two more 21 year olds.  After that I hooked up with an older wacko that I could not get rid of.  The first 21 year old was a model and the 30 year old could have easily been if she wanted to be.   Chasing younger AW is not that impossible.   I will say that where I am now finding younger RW is easier than finding younger AW.   The first 21 year old I was talking about was totally into older men.   She was constantly after me to dye my hair grey so I would look older. 

[jb]

T/G,

I don't want to hear about how it was when you were 45, I want to hear about last night.

After my divorce I was in the 40-50 age bracket and I also dated some girls who were in their 20's.  It didn't take long to figure out what they were after.   It wasn't my lean and near perfect body, nor was it my sparkling personality.  Young and beautiful women go after older men for social and economic gain mostly.  If you like being used as a ticket to a better life, have at it.  However, I don't think the motives of FSU women are that different from their AW sisters who date older men.

Just an observation on my part, and considering that was about 15 or so years ago, things may have changed, YMMV.

[KenC]

Why not?  Maybe not for us to actually do the deciding and girl picking for him, or to determine real eligibility for the general public, however, if we as fellow board members, who have been there and done that, don't bother pointing out the fallacy in an errant brother's ways, pray tell, who will?  I'd wager a small sum on the likelyhood that fully 3/4's or more of those engaged in these letter writing campaigns do not share the facts or regale anyone with stories of the charms of a MOB Barbie Doll they've met on-line, with anyone in their usual social circle.  Why don't they share this info with their friends and co-workers?  Because most will fear the taint of an unkind public preception of the MOB idea will draw unwarranted criticism.  I can only imagine the peals of laughter coming from around the office water cooler as the "office buddies" rehashed that story for the 10th time.  The odds of him getting that same very friendly advice from his friends over a beer and B-B-Q are slim to none.

No one wants to be thought of as a fool, that's why most come to a site like this one.  Here they can let their hair down and hopefully, if he has his head screwed on right, find a sense of camaraderie among others of like mind.  They ask questions and receive answers, that's the spirit and thrust of such a board.  However, when an inexperienced newbie begins to reject advice out of hand, and to question the motives of the veteran traveler, then he's apt to get his hand slapped, verbally, of course.  We've seen this before.

Intersting post, jb. I have to agree with it too. This process is a unique blend of very unusual experiences like travel to fsu countres, immigration challenges and very specific cultural differences. If you couple those ideas with any type of experience with agencies and scams perpetrated by foreign women, a person might get a better response from the closest wall than to speak to someone that isn't some way involved with this. I believe that is why these type of forums do so well; it is a gathering place for people whom share some very unusual and very specific experiences. Why else would I feel the camaraderie with a group that would include Tigerpaws, Bruce, AJ, Maxx, Clyde, BillyB, Ste, BC and you? The one thing that we all have in common is fsu women and travel to that area.

Just as an observation, I believe that most of the conflicts here are based on a difference of opinion on issues other than specifics to this process. Like general dating concepts, relationship concepts and basic understanding of what it takes to have a successful marriage. I also believe that this is true because that is where our commonality ends.

Now it's Saturday evening and I'd like to suggest we find out why a few of our members are so staunchly defending the 20+ year age difference.  Here's a challenge for all you 45 - 55+ guys still looking, tonight you should get yourself all cleaned and dolled up, put on your best casual fare, splash on your most alluring after-shave, trot on down to your local hot-spot disco/bar & grill/whatever, time your arrival for about 10:30 so the local gals have had a chance to get a bit sloshed, (betters the odds), pick out the most attractive 20 something year old girl in the house and have a go at her.  I'd love to hear the actual results of such an activity, but I doubt it will happen.  This would be an object lesson in realistic expectations.  Any takers?

Now jb, this has been gone over again and again. The only reason guys go for younger and more beautiful women in the fsu than they do at home is very simple. Because they can!
KenC

[Turboguy]

Last night?  Last night I got laid, since you asked.

Your statement was that guys in the 45-55 year range could not find a young American gal that would be interested in them.  As far as the ones I found that was the worst period of my life financially so if they were intererested in my money, I had none.   I had just finished a divorce where things were divided 50-50.  she got that assets, I got the payments.  50-50!  

I also hit a business disaster where I was importing a bunch of equipment and warehousing it at a large Ford tractor dealership.  He committed suicide and the bank closed the business.  It was just like my divorce.  Mellon bank got my equipment and I got the secured debt for it.  I figured my net worth at one point as minus $ 150,000.00   I should have done the smart thing and declared bankrupcy but had too much pride or was just too stupid.  Instead I worked my tail off and paid every cent I owed plus a lot of penalties.  Some of the stuff I went through is funny to look back on.  Like the time I looked in the cupboard to see what there was to eat and saw a box of bisquick.  I decided to make biscuts except when I opened the box there were worms in it. Soooo, I spent 10 minutes picking them out and figured the oven would kill anything alive anyway and made the biscuts.  Any gal who was interested in me for my money in those days had to be hard up.  

I don't question things could be different now.  Times do change.  When I was 50 I looked about 30 so I am sure that helped too.  Yes, I have to admit as far as last night the persuit of FSU women helped that.  I put the gal who visited me in LA on the plane back to Russia this morning.

good point KenC.   The do it because they can, and if they can, why shouldn't they.  If they go too far with it though it will catch up to them down the road and that is the real point you guys are trying to make.  Yes, you can get a barbie doll way younger than you are but are you going to keep her once she gets here and gets americanized.   Isn't that what the problem really is!

[PeeWee]

T/G,

I don't want to hear about how it was when you were 45, I want to hear about last night.

After my divorce I was in the 40-50 age bracket and I also dated some girls who were in their 20's.  It didn't take long to figure out what they were after.   It wasn't my lean and near perfect body, nor was it my sparkling personality.  Young and beautiful women go after older men for social and economic gain mostly.  If you like being used as a ticket to a better life, have at it.  However, I don't think the motives of FSU women are that different from their AW sisters who date older men.

Just an observation on my part, and considering that was about 15 or so years ago, things may have changed, YMMV.

I have said it before, the 10s are attracted to both power and money, or as jb says, "...social and economic..." Anna Nicole Smith...and do you all remember the fable of the "Prince and the Pauper"?  The prince knew that he could not find a honest woman for his mate if he were the prince so he dressed as a beggar and found his woman. Later Eddie Murphy and Arcenio Hall recreated the story in the movie "Coming to America" where he was the to be come the King of Zumda, had be set up with a arranged marriage, but wanted a woman who would love him for who he was and not what he was.

Unfortunate that we, collectively, are not in the possition of finding a mate without first showing her the money, from another movie, as it were. I do not know of any of us who have courted an foreign bride that at some point did not divulge both our social status and our economic status. She chose us, in part, based on the information. 

Ok..all of you who are still in denial...tell me why I am wrong.

Peewee

[Turboguy]

Having just spent the last 5 days showing an FSU woman the scenic wonders of Western PA, I did note that her interest level in me seemed to go from an 8.5 to a 10 after the tour of my business.

[ronin308]

jb, you can add me to the list of "open" men.  While as a consultant my workplace is a bit different than the norm, people I have regular contact with know all about my trips overseas and my now fiance.  I just tend to be fairly open about most aspects of my life if asked.  My family is very effective about spread news as well.  I still laugh at the fact that I told 1 person about my engagement when boarding my plane to LA from Chicago, by the time I landed I had about 5 voicemails from other family members with congrats.

Even with all that potential advice, none of them has any experience in doing this so it's natural to at least lurk on forums where that experience lives.  Reading these forums allows me to learn from the mistakes of others and allows me to have smoother sailing when she finally gets here. 

As to the topic of this thread, I can go back and see a few times where I went tit for tat because I got upset at the wording of a posting where I could agree with a few of the principles being posted.  I can see a few postings from a couple of people now that I could get upset at unless I put on the filters to distill the post to what it's intent is rather than focus on 1 or 2 sentences.

[Turboguy]

PeeWee,

Only an idiot would argue with that to any degree.  I do believe there are some who are not interested in a man's money though.  My former fiancee said one of the things she did not like about me was that I was not poor.  She had always wanted a poor man.  Of course I have come to the conclusion she was a little crazy anyway and I think she had it in her mind to complain about everything she could.  Had I been poor she probably would have said she always wanted a rich man.

I also noticed in her e-mails one guy had written her and just said he owned a glass business in Virginia with 3 stores and she wrote back and told him she was not intested in someone who flaunted thier wealth.  He had just casually mentioned what he did for a living and there was no flaunting in his letter.

One gal I spent a few days with in Moscow a few weeks ago said she was not interested in a rich man.  She just wanted to live a normal life with a good man. 

There are exceptions but I can't argue that someone with loads of money will have a better selection than someone without.

[PeeWee]

Having just spent the last 5 days showing an FSU woman the scenic wonders of Western PA, I did note that her interest level in me seemed to go from an 8.5 to a 10 after the tour of my business.

LOL!!! Women are women, Turbo. No matter where they come from. Why do so many girls go to college? To get their MRS. degree. And those lads who attend both law school and med school are their biggest targets. And why is that?  The hope of future money and power.

[PeeWee]

PeeWee,

Only an idiot would argue with that to any degree.  I do believe there are some who are not interested in a man's money though.  My former fiancee said one of the things she did not like about me was that I was not poor.  She had always wanted a poor man.  Of course I have come to the conclusion she was a little crazy anyway and I think she had it in her mind to complain about everything she could.  Had I been poor she probably would have said she always wanted a rich man.

I also noticed in her e-mails one guy had written her and just said he owned a glass business in Virginia with 3 stores and she wrote back and told him she was not intested in someone who flaunted thier wealth.  He had just casually mentioned what he did for a living and there was no flaunting in his letter.

One gal I spent a few days with in Moscow a few weeks ago said she was not interested in a rich man.  She just wanted to live a normal life with a good man. 

There are exceptions but I can't argue that someone with loads of money will have a better selection than someone without.

There will be lots of exceptions, Turbo. I think a man is a fool if he does flaunt his money when he is courting a foreign woman. It might be like pouring gas on a flame.

Peewee

[Turboguy]

I have to agree with you PeeWee.  I think someone who flaunts what he has is making a big mistake.   Either they are going to attract the wrong type of women or women for the wrong reasons.

I can recall a guy from one of my EC tours who traveled with a portfolio showing in Rolls, his antique car collection, his stables, his orchards, his house, the servants quarters in his house, his private plane etc.  Last I heard he was still looking.  I should not say anything about the fact he was my age and wanted a 21 year old. 

Often when I am talking to a gal if they ask about my business I will refer to my business as a "small business"   I have had a few gals get upset over my terminology.   To me a big business is GM or Microsoft.  Mine is proabably not "that" small.  but it is not GM either.

[PeeWee]

I have to agree with you PeeWee.  I think someone who flaunts what he has is making a big mistake.   Either they are going to attract the wrong type of women or women for the wrong reasons.

I can recall a guy from one of my EC tours who traveled with a portfolio showing in Rolls, his antique car collection, his stables, his orchards, his house, the servants quarters in his house, his private plane etc.  Last I heard he was still looking.  I should not say anything about the fact he was my age and wanted a 21 year old. 

Often when I am talking to a gal if they ask about my business I will refer to my business as a "small business"   I have had a few gals get upset over my terminology.   To me a big business is GM or Microsoft.  Mine is proabably not "that" small.  but it is not GM either.

Thus far, after only 3 months of communicating with her, Lena knows that I live in Seattle, that I sell something for a living. That I have a second business selling something else. I have not told her what cars I drive... no need to really. She knows that I have a boat but not the size of it. That I have a summer home and another home. And with that I had not thought that I had told her much more but after I add up the verious conversations that led to those disclosures I could see where she might draw the conclusion that I have something going on.

But that information came to her by her asking me what I did for a living, as I did her. By asking what I did over the weekend, boating, but then I know she spends her weekends on her farm. She know that I have published a novel in several languages by visiting my website. Bits an pieces of information that was divulged over a period of time via a normal conversation but when all totaled one could draw some conclusions from it.

 I suppose there is no way to not tell a woman what  your social status is and what your financial stability might be. I think to that if she did not gather a certain amount of information that she would feel somewhat concerned as to whether her new man could afford her and her son because she would know that if there was a marriage that she would be totally dependant, as they most all are, on her new husband. Some information given seems reasonable to me. I suppose that is overt and blantant might smack of the man either buying the woman or at least overly impressing her to compensate for what he lacked in other less material areas.

peewee