The Failure of Diplomacy in Ukraine

[Faux Pas]

He also views it as some sort of "win win".  It's not.  Russia doesn't want that territory, which  costs more than it produces.  It is just a matter of deciding, enough is enough.  No Ukrainian life is worth that territory, or the bandits who are the "separtist" leaders.

Well if you are a Ukrainian and the East of Ukraine is your home. Fighting life and limb for that territory is probably a no brainer, no?

[Boethius]

Most of the Ukrainians fighting are from Central/Western Ukraine.  Those left in the region are either too poor, or too infirm to leave.  Give them the option and let the terrorists run it to the ground (as they will).  They've already said women should not be allowed in restaurants.  They plan on introducing the death penalty (not a European concept).  They are barely above animals in their thinking, so let their stupidity reign for the glory of Mother Russia.

[fathertime]

The issue with FT is that he is afraid of a war, maybe nuclear, with Russia. Based on what he has written, he would rather lick Putler's boots as long as he "lives."


Correct me if I'm wrong FT.

Concerned about a wider war that we get ensnared into...and nuclear possibilities several steps down the line...not willing to do go this route over Ukraine....
 

[Boethius]

That would not happen, as it is not Putin's endgame.

[Boethius]

Furthermore, Russia is no match for the US militarily.

[fathertime]

He also views it as some sort of "win win".  It's not.  Russia doesn't want that territory, which  costs more than it produces.  It is just a matter of deciding, enough is enough.  No Ukrainian life is worth that territory, or the bandits who are the "separtist" leaders.

Are you speaking FOR me? 


The fact remains that this was fairly predictable and if indeed the land winds up getting divided, it should have been done sooner rather than later...and it would have been even better if it was done 6 months ago when you were squawking against it. 


Fathertime!   

[Boethius]

Six months ago, Ukraine had the upper hand.  The "rebels" were on the verge of defeat.  Then, the Russians started supplying them with men and arms.

[fathertime]

That would not happen, as it is not Putin's endgame.

Furthermore, Russia is no match for the US militarily.

It sounds like you are calling for further US involvement as you feel it would make Putin stand down.


 Doesn't matter if their military doesn't stand up to ours, they can inflict enough damage to make the whole thing not worthwhile for us...we shouldn't have a dog in this fight....


Fathertime!   

[calmissile]

I don't think this is the best way, just as I don't think Cyprus and North Korea are the "best" ways.  However, I don't think the loss of Ukrainian lives are worth that territory.

ok, I get it now.   
YOU do not think the loss of Ukrainian lives are worth the battle to defend their sovereignty.  Hopefully the West and the Ukraine citizens will together make that decision.  Obviously they cannot do it without the support of the West.

[Boethius]

It sounds like you are calling for further US involvement as you feel it would make Putin stand down.


 Doesn't matter if their military doesn't stand up to ours, they can inflict enough damage to make the whole thing not worthwhile for us...we shouldn't have a dog in this fight....


Fathertime!

No, that is not what I am saying.  I am just saying that if it came to that (it won't), the Russians are no match for American troops.

[fathertime]

Six months ago, Ukraine had the upper hand.  The "rebels" were on the verge of defeat.  Then, the Russians started supplying them with men and arms.

And that was a surprise to you?  It was obvious all along to me that the rebels wouldn't be allowed to fail. 


Fathertime!   

[lordtiberius]

Six months ago, Ukraine had the upper hand.  The "rebels" were on the verge of defeat.  Then, the Russians started supplying them with men and arms.

Started?

No.  They reinforced them with Regular Army.

[Boethius]

ok, I get it now.   
YOU do not think the loss of Ukrainian lives are worth the battle to defend their sovereignty.  Hopefully the West and the Ukraine citizens will together make that decision.  Obviously they cannot do it without the support of the West.

That particularly territory is not worth the battle for the rest of Ukraine's sovereignty.  Russia will not agree to what I propose.  It pretty much has to be unilateral, forced on the terrorists.

[fathertime]

No, that is not what I am saying.  I am just saying that if it came to that (it won't), the Russians are no match for American troops.

There is no saying how that would play out...who would wind up arising from the aftermath and with what left, but it wouldn't be good for the USA...and it isn't necessary.


Fathertime!   

[calmissile]

Most of the Ukrainians fighting are from Central/Western Ukraine.  Those left in the region are either too poor, or too infirm to leave.  Give them the option and let the terrorists run it to the ground (as they will).  They've already said women should not be allowed in restaurants.  They plan on introducing the death penalty (not a European concept).  They are barely above animals in their thinking, so let their stupidity reign for the glory of Mother Russia.

Let them do it in Mother Russia, not Ukraine.

[Boethius]

And that was a surprise to you?  It was obvious all along to me that the rebels wouldn't be allowed to fail. 


Fathertime!

Your mistake is in assuming this is what Russia wants.  It is not.  The reason is not to give those territories any sense of independence.  It is to make them a drain on Kyiv.

[lordtiberius]

It sounds like you are calling for further US involvement as you feel it would make Putin stand down.


 Doesn't matter if their military doesn't stand up to ours, they can inflict enough damage to make the whole thing not worthwhile for us...we shouldn't have a dog in this fight....


Fathertime!

How do you arrive at the conclusion from Boethius's statements that she is calling for more US involvement?  You will criticize every country but Russia.  Why?  If that is not true, what has Russia done that is worthy of condemnation?

[Muzh]

It sounds like you are calling for further US involvement as you feel it would make Putin stand down.


Fathertime!

LMAO


The US Government has turned a deaf ear to the Ukrainian diaspora.


However, the "calling" now is beyond our say. Seems Putler's bluff will be called pretty soon.

[Muzh]

ok, I get it now.   
YOU do not think the loss of Ukrainian lives are worth the battle to defend their sovereignty.  Hopefully the West and the Ukraine citizens will together make that decision.  Obviously they cannot do it without the support of the West.

That is NOT what she said.

[fathertime]

Your mistake is in assuming this is what Russia wants.  It is not.  The reason is not to give those territories any sense of independence.  It is to make them a drain on Kyiv.

Well we shall see if that is what winds up happening...From what I've gathered your belief is.... if Russia has it's way, Ukraine will retain possession of the captured lands, and have to administer to them ....If there is a split, I say not likely that is happening...those lands are going to be either Russian or independent and basically unsupported by Western Ukraine. 


Fathertime!   

[calmissile]

That particularly territory is not worth the battle for the rest of Ukraine's sovereignty.  Russia will not agree to what I propose.  It pretty much has to be unilateral, forced on the terrorists.

To you and I it might think it's not be worth fighting for, but it might be for the Ukrainians to remain intact.  There are more worthless portions of the USA and Canada that you can compare with Eastern Ukraine.  You don't  think the USA and Canada would fight tooth and nail in the same situation?

[Изумруд]

And that was a surprise to you? It was obvious all along to me that the rebels wouldn't be allowed to fail.

So NOW you agree that Ukraine needs to be split....when I said that a year ago everybody scoffed and became irate with me!  This was the likely result from the beginning...if Russia accepts it.

You seem to need a lot of attention.


 

[Boethius]

No, I don't think Canada would, if a majority of the populace of the region was willing to let the region go.

...those lands are going to be either Russian or independent and basically
unsupported by Western Ukraine. 

Russia doesn't want those lands.  If the terrorists want them fine.  Nothing good will happen there, the region's primary industry is a dying industry (coal) in mines that are a century old. 

[Muzh]

Well we shall see if that is what winds up happening...From what I've gathered your belief is.... if Russia has it's way, Ukraine will retain possession of the captured lands, and have to administer to them ....If there is a split, I say not likely that is happening...those lands are going to be either Russian or independent and basically unsupported by Western Ukraine. 


Fathertime!   

Do you play left field for the Angels? Because that is where you are all the time.


The simple fact is Russia wants Ukraine on its knees and the way to achieve that is by bankrupting the country.


Now, do I have to spell it for you how Ukraine will be bankrupt if they are to take on a frozen conflict?

[Boethius]

He doesn't seem to want to, or can't, understand the end game.  He assumes this is about Donbas/Eastern Ukraine, when we know that is not the case.