"Britain could not allow the Ukrainian armed forces to collapse "

[jone]

Taz,

You are right. The Russian army / aka separatists / is not rolling over the Ukrainian army.   Quite honestly, I could never imagine committing US forces to half throttle as the Russians have done.  If US soldiers go into war, I would want them to be totally supported.  That means air support and updated technology, no matter where they are engaged.  For Russia to throw outdated technology and no air support in this obvious invasion is criminal on the part of the Russian government.  When the body boxes go back home and the mothers are advised that their sons are dead, if I were them, I would want to know that my government did everything possible to protect them in war.

[JayH]

Not exactly your top of the line 5th generation MBT but it's a start...

Ukraine: UK delivers armoured vehicles, MoD confirms

..."A consignment of former British military Saxon armoured vehicles has been delivered to Ukraine, the Ministry of Defence has confirmed."...

..."A Ukrainian news agency has reported that 20 British Saxon armoured cars have been delivered to Ukraine, with another 55 expected to arrive soon."...

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-31465365

Now these are army surplus APCs (armored personnel carriers) and are being delivered unarmed but they work and the good part is they can be easily rearmed as they're outfitted with one turret mount 7.62 machine gun which with minor modification could carry the Ukrainian equivalent PK 7.62 light machine gun.



So well done UK.

Brass

Brass-- they look pretty good to me!! Regardless of what the General thinks  they have to be a huge plus addition to what I have seen.All types of cars and small trucks were adapted with steel reinforcing and chopped and channeled to allow weapons to be used from them-- and try and buy time for the occupants. You may laugh if you saw photos--but I can assure it was no joke seeing what had been adapted at that time. Over the course of the last year the equipment has improved-there is just not enough of it.
Anyone that thinks the Ukrainians don't have the will to fight-- only needs to see what they were prepared to fight Russia with!!

[lordtiberius]

The Berlin wall has been down for 20 years.  Why isn't their peace between our 2 peoples?

[Muzh]

If push comes to shove, there are 3 world armies that could kick Russia's ass back to the stone age in straight up combat with no issues; USA, UK and Germany. Russia needs to be careful how far they push this. From talking to my congressman there is a much greater appetite to confront Putin. If he allows the rebel terrorists and Russian army to continue to attack, there likely will be a major war. Russia could easily lose if this happens. Russian isn't exactly rolling over the Ukrainian army and if they went up against US troops they would get their asses handed to them.

With all due respect, if there is a war with western powers, there will be no Patton trying to push the army into Russia. What I'm convince they will do is kick ass in Ukraine and sweep the scum back to Russia. Then build a nice gate.

[mendeleyev]

Then build a nice gate.

That is being planned should the conflict escalate. Much of the equipment from Ukraine and the USA have been designed for effective border control.

[JayH]

If push comes to shove, there are 3 world armies that could kick Russia's ass back to the stone age in straight up combat with no issues; USA, UK and Germany. Russia needs to be careful how far they push this. From talking to my congressman there is a much greater appetite to confront Putin. If he allows the rebel terrorists and Russian army to continue to attack, there likely will be a major war. Russia could easily lose if this happens. Russian isn't exactly rolling over the Ukrainian army and if they went up against US troops they would get their asses handed to them.

Taz,

You are right. The Russian army / aka separatists / is not rolling over the Ukrainian army.   Quite honestly, I could never imagine committing US forces to half throttle as the Russians have done.  If US soldiers go into war, I would want them to be totally supported.  That means air support and updated technology, no matter where they are engaged.  For Russia to throw outdated technology and no air support in this obvious invasion is criminal on the part of the Russian government.  When the body boxes go back home and the mothers are advised that their sons are dead, if I were them, I would want to know that my government did everything possible to protect them in war.

TAZ-- given the internal US political situation about sending ground troops to fight abroad  I do not see them as necessary in Ukraine.With proper support Ukraine can do the job.
Presuming that it remains a limited war( ie to the geographic regions that Russia has invaded ) then the Ukrainian ground forces are capable of removing Russia--IF-- they get the help that is needed.If more troops are required Poland has large numbers(20,000) ready to go and more ready to back up-- and literally only a matter of hours from the frontline.
What Ukraine needs is   Intelligence( & assistance in how to use it) Air Cover( ie take control of the air) Up to date weapons and the tech that goes with it. Sending the people to teach and train the use of them.To back it up--the logistical support required .
I would also like to see the special forces of capable western countries-including US -- but also from other Nato member countries plus other western nations.
I would do all this without any announcement--just get on with it and divert comment.
I would also tell Putin--that any source from Russia attempting to enter Ukraine will be considered hostile--and it will be attacked at it's source-even if it is in Russia eg  missile fired from within Russia,aircraft entering no fly zone,vehicle attempting unauthorised crossing into Ukraine etc
Putin wants to take on the world--so be it-let him try.

[lordtiberius]

So no new British arms for the Ukrainians while they get mauled? 

[lordtiberius]

Cameron threatens more sanctions if Russia moves on Mariupol



The Western "leaders" have a reputation for parsing their commitments.  I don't see this as a THIS WILL NOT STAND commitment.  Cameron is not passionate over this issue.  He is reading the statement versus practicing the statement for dramatic effect.  He said the "EU and US" versus "UK" or British.  EU actions could take months and US, well, Barack don't move unless he wants to move.  In short there is enough wiggle room to drive a T-90 tank through it.  But it is better than the silence of the Franco-Germans who have embarrassed themselves at Minsk.

[AC]

I would also tell Putin--that any source from Russia attempting to enter Ukraine will be considered hostile--and it will be attacked at it's source-even if it is in Russia eg  missile fired from within Russia,aircraft entering no fly zone,vehicle attempting unauthorised crossing into Ukraine etc
Putin wants to take on the world--so be it-let him try.

In a real war, one fought not by politicians but by a General with total clearance to win, it would not be enough to just stop Russians from coming over the border.

Russia's invasion hub over there in Russia needs to be totally wiped-out by a few B2 bombers. 

[JayH]

In a real war, one fought not by politicians but by a General with total clearance to win, it would not be enough to just stop Russians from coming over the border.

The comments I made above still envisaged a limited geographically localised war-- beyond that would be up to Putin to react.Part of the key here is you are stating it is NOT an attack on Russia wholesale--but limited to extended defensive actions of Ukraine.
It would also spell out to Putin that overreaction would be at his own peril.
I do not agree with your comment above-- taking control of the air-- and using it-- would make it possible to destroy every piece of Russian hardware in Ukraine in a very short time-- without that support  the Russian troops on the ground and some enhanced weapons for Ukrainian ground forces--they would drive the Russians out in a very short time.
Personally--I would try and cut of retreat by the Russians!!  Making a public example of captured and dead Russian troops is the only way the Russian public will ever get any of this.

[AC]

I do not agree with your comment above-- taking control of the air-- and using it-- would make it possible to destroy every piece of Russian hardware in Ukraine in a very short time-- without that support  the Russian troops on the ground and some enhanced weapons for Ukrainian ground forces--they would drive the Russians out in a very short time.

Maybe.  Why take any chances of a repeat?  If the invasion hub is not taken out he would likely try it again.

Remember the highway of death as Iraqi's were trying to get out of Kuwait?  I want to see a highway of death as Russians try to get out of Ukraine, and I want it broadcast to the whole world on a nice loop.  Have some hackers loop it on every TV broadcast tower in Moscow until the Russians know the truth.

[lordtiberius]

Russians moving Tornado rockets to be used against the Ukrainian people.  Russia also announced a prison amnesty relocating 20,000 paroled inmates to the occupied zone.

This is not genocide?

[lordtiberius]

Jay, given your political limitations on war, doesn't Rostov become a safe haven?

My own view is without an invasion and occupation of Moscow, this could go on for years.

[fathertime]

I do not agree with your comment above-- taking control of the air-- and using it-- would make it possible to destroy every piece of Russian hardware in Ukraine in a very short time-- without that support  the Russian troops on the ground and some enhanced weapons for Ukrainian ground forces--they would drive the Russians out in a very short time.
Personally--I would try and cut of retreat by the Russians!!  Making a public example of captured and dead Russian troops is the only way the Russian public will ever get any of this.

Fantasy land again....I'm sure Russia leaders, and it's citizenry would just cower in their basements, and not react violently to efforts to this sort of thing.   


Fathertime! 

[lordtiberius]

This is from all your FSU experience?

[JayH]

Jay, given your political limitations on war, doesn't Rostov become a safe haven?

My own view is without an invasion and occupation of Moscow, this could go on for years.

LT--I am saying I would attack in Russia any direct source of intrusion  eg   an airfield an attack emanated from,vehicles attempting retreat from Ukraine would be on my list.
What I would not do is start attack eg on non connected Siberian airfield. The restricted attack I would limit to directly to Russian attack on Ukraine>  Hopefully to keep it a geographically limited war.
I should add--I do not see Putin reacting well to being removed from Crimea!!

[lordtiberius]

The British are coming!

UK stuns Europe by sending troops to Ukraine

http://www.kyivpost.com/content/kyiv-post-plus/uk-stuns-europe-by-sending-troops-to-ukraine-381775.html

[Steamer]

The British are coming!

UK stuns Europe by sending troops to Ukraine

http://www.kyivpost.com/content/kyiv-post-plus/uk-stuns-europe-by-sending-troops-to-ukraine-381775.html

The United Kingdom announced on Feb. 24 that it would send 75 troops to Ukraine within the month to train the nation's embattled forces.

That's not exactly the cavalry coming over the hill.

[Brasscasing]

The United Kingdom announced on Feb. 24 that it would send 75 troops to Ukraine within the month to train the nation's embattled forces.

That's not exactly the cavalry coming over the hill.

What it is, is a UK government policy shift in favor of Ukraine. Where there's 75 there's another Brigade or Division if the UK is so inclined.

Brass

[lordtiberius]

Steamer has a point, technically MH 17 was an act of war, therefore should Article 5 be invoked against Russia?

[Boethius]

I'm not really certain it was an act of war, as the intention was not to bring down a civilian airline.

[lordtiberius]

OK. Cool.  It was a mistake.  Reparations? Lol

[AC]

What it is, is a UK government policy shift in favor of Ukraine. Where there's 75 there's another Brigade or Division if the UK is so inclined.

Brass

Those 75 British troops will train at least 7,500 Ukrainians.  All they need now are the proper weapons.

Once enough dead Russian soldiers go home from their "vacation" Putin's game will be over.

[BillyB]

American did it and now the British is doing it. Training Ukrainian troops will get them better prepared to kill Russian troops and that's okay but giving Ukrainian troops weapons to be better prepared to kill Russian troops is a no no because it will make Putin escalate? Strange logic.

[AC]

American did it and now the British is doing it. Training Ukrainian troops will get them better prepared to kill Russian troops and that's okay but giving Ukrainian troops weapons to be better prepared to kill Russian troops is a no no because it will make Putin escalate? Strange logic.

It will escalate dead Russian bodies going back to Russia where they belong and that's a good thing because it will escalate the demise of Herr Putler.