Ukraine Can Win

[JayH]

This is a topic skirted in many different threads.I have asserted for over 12 months that Ukraine can win--ie remove Russia from Ukraine and re-establish it's sovereign boundaries as recognised by the world( except Russia!)

The Ukrainian military has come a long way in the last year-- substantial and ongoing reorganisation. This article today-- covers some of the explanation of how it is organised-and equipped.
While Ukraine has an abundance of some types of weapons--the Russians have newer more sophisticated technology,Despite that-the Ukrainians have become battle hardened and battle smart in many respects. Many mistakes have also been made.
Those volunteers are key. More than 50 territorial defense battalions, with more than 7,000 volunteer soldiers, have been formed in the past year, from scratch. As often as not, they are the infantry at the front. And the civilian effort goes further. Even regular Ukrainian army units are supplied with food and equipment from donors, in the absence of proper government logistics.

Weak compared to Putin’s Russia, certainly. But the national awakening evident in Ukraine’s volunteer battalions is of a quality hard to imagine in Western Europe or the United States today. For it’s not only the flowering of patriotic rhetoric, but also of citizens in large numbers picking up arms and actually risking — and losing — their lives. Like the Kurds of Iraq, the Ukrainian volunteers are pro-Western and wonder why the West doesn’t help them more, rather than deride their chances with “realism.”

Some of the volunteers, such as the Azov Battalion, have been accused of ties to right-wing and fascist movements, accusations that the Russians are quick to amplify but have some truth to them, nonetheless. Regardless of ideology and the long-term danger to Ukrainian civil society, a broad spectrum of Ukrainian society is now united to fight the war.

 Analysis & Opinion | The Great Debate
Ukraine’s military is stronger than believed. Here’s what it needs to win.
By Alan Chin February 16, 2015

Conventional wisdom thus suggests that Ukrainians are in a desperate predicament, and that the Russian behemoth is an unstoppable steamroller. Because they believe that a military solution is hopeless, Merkel and Hollande’s frantic diplomacy was partly a dissent against President Barack Obama’s public debate to arm Ukraine with “lethal defensive aid.”

But in fact, the war may be less of a mismatch than it first seems, at least in some ways. Mark Hiznay, senior researcher in the Arms Division for Human Rights Watch, said, “We’d like both sides to refrain from using cluster munitions,” as the organization has documented. “There is lots of old Soviet ammunition stored in Ukraine,” he explained, accessible to all parties, and that “massive firepower is being used in a way that negatively impacts civilians; firepower that is simple to use, indiscriminate and disproportional.” Ukraine, like its Russian opponents, has no shortage of artillery, rockets and tanks — the old, heavy metal weapons of 20th- century mechanized warfare.

http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/2015/02/16/ukraines-military-is-stronger-than-believed-heres-what-it-needs-to-win/

[lordtiberius]

Without going on the offensive, you are losing Jay.  Our men are losing.  The Minsk accords prevent our men from going on the offensive.  They don't have the technology to take the fight to the enemy.  And their friends in Germany and France run interference for Putin.

[Doll]

Without going on the offensive, you are losing Jay.  Our men are losing.  The Minsk accords prevent our men from going on the offensive.  They don't have the technology to take the fight to the enemy.  And their friends in Germany and France run interference for Putin.

Who are these "our men"?

[AkMike]

Back to the brick mode?

[Doll]

Сегодня там в плен сдалась самая многочисленная группа украинских силовиков - 72 человека
http://vk.com/novnews
Watch the video.
I think Poroshenko's soldiers are doing the right thing- saving their own lives.

[Doll]

[BillyB]

Ukraine’s military is stronger than believed.

Do you think Putin is shaking with fear based on that revelation/opinion? Russia is winning the fights. Russia is winning the ceasefire. The West won't give Ukraine meaningful help and there's no reason for Putin to stop when he has the advantage.

Сегодня там в плен сдалась самая многочисленная группа украинских силовиков - 72 человека
http://vk.com/novnews
Watch the video.
I think Poroshenko's soldiers are doing the right thing- saving their own lives.

The Western media and Ukrainian government also says Ukrainian soldiers were taken prisoner. If the West ever helps Ukraine militarily, I hope Russian soldiers do the right thing to save their lives too.

[lordtiberius]

Do you think Putin is shaking with fear based on that revelation/opinion? Russia is winning the fights. Russia is winning the ceasefire. The West won't give Ukraine meaningful help and there's no reason for Putin to stop when he has the advantage.

Umm, is NATO killing Putin's soldiers or is it Ukraine?  Is Russia who spends $ 88 B on its military taking losses from an Army that got crowdfunded?

[lordtiberius]

Who are these "our men"?

Not yours

[JayH]

Without going on the offensive, you are losing Jay.  Our men are losing.  The Minsk accords prevent our men from going on the offensive.  They don't have the technology to take the fight to the enemy.  And their friends in Germany and France run interference for Putin.

The agreement does not exclude offensive---acting honorably does.Ukrainian forces have tried to comply-but it is impossible when being attacked.
Russian forces have in fact stepped up the attack in places--but who ever expected more from them.

As said previously--the west needs to help Ukraine and give it the means to defend itself.

 

[JayH]

In the last week there has been satellite evidence of Russian military spearheading the attacks in Ukraine.The persistent pretence of Putin & Russia that it was a 'popular" local uprising has always been a nonsense--but it created enough doubt for the rest of the world not to come out and call them liars.
Now we are seeing irrefutable proof daily-- and more of the recent history is clear now.Another factually based article below.
In the last few days-western countries have called out Russia over BS-- but the question still remains--why is the west not expanding help to Ukraine?

Russia shelled Ukrainians from within its own territory, says study


When Ukrainian forces came under withering attack in the east of the country last summer, soldiers were surprised as much as scared by the ferocity of the attack. The separatists they were up against had proven fierce and organised. But this was something else.

Now a group of British investigative journalists using digital detection techniques, satellite imagery and social media has provided near conclusive proof that the shelling came from across the border in Russia.

The work by the Bellingcat investigative journalism group highlights a murky aspect of the war in Ukraine, which continues to sputter despite last week’s attempt in Minsk to draw up a ceasefire, with reports of heavy fighting around the railway hub of Debaltseve on Tuesday.

Russia has long been accused of funnelling soldiers, munitions and military vehicles into eastern Ukraine to help separatists take on the Ukrainian army. But until now, little has been written about Russian military units shelling across the border into Ukraine.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/feb/17/russia-shelled-ukrainians-from-within-its-own-territory-says-study

[JayH]

Very difficult days for Ukraine military---now this.

Putin actually called Ukrainian military to lay down arms


Russian President Vladimir Putin appreciates Minsky agreement . According to him, "the Ukrainian side essentially agreed profound constitutional reform to meet independence if it was not called, some regions." This Russian president said during a visit to Hungary. "It's very much deeper meaning," - says Putin. He is convinced that the faster will be assigned technology, the faster a political settlement will go into the real phase. The head of the Russian Federation noted that the general decrease in military activity. Like, last time there was a cessation of hostilities immediately. "In times decreased Debaltsevo clashes in the area . The fact that there is predictable and explicable, "- says Putin. He explained that a week before the Minsk agreements Ukrainian troops allegedly were surrounded. Therefore will attempt to break out of the circle, and they will block the outside. "Militia will resist. Some time will be clashes," - said the Russian president. He said that those responsible should not interfere Ukrainian military who were surrounded, up and will not pursue people who want to lay down their arms. Turn the militants have to hold these people and allow them to have to leave the conflict zone and return to their families.
Більше читайте тут: http://tsn.ua/politika/putin-faktichno-zaklikav-ukrayinskih-viyskovih-skladati-zbroyu-410004.html

Russian Lt-General Alexander Lentsov himself is overseeing the take over of #Debaltseve. …

[JayH]

I think those are interesting and valid points of view. If Russia should loose, and sooner or later it will, because historically time and time again it is evident that people can take only so much of oppression, it will crumble from inside. Hunger, disappointment, grief will do its job. And it is absolutely true that Russian top government is pissed beyond believe that Ukraine, which Russia never considered a country, or a nation, fights back, and may prevail. Isn't it always amazing when the underdog turns into a hero and wins?

20K soldiers can defeat Russian army in Ukraine

[Doll]

The Western media and Ukrainian government also says Ukrainian soldiers were taken prisoner. If the West ever helps Ukraine militarily, I hope Russian soldiers do the right thing to save their lives too.

BillyB, it is a real chance to save their lives (both sides)

[Doll]

Not yours

Who are these "not yours"?
Both young boys (Ukrainians and Russians) are ours.

[JayH]

At last there is no more hiding it-- everyone is now saying what has been obvious all along.
Ukraine is at war with Russia--Russia has started a war on Ukraine-- but now we still have the west dithering on what to do.the Minsk talks are clearly another failure and Ukraine is facing huge losses of men  today.
Help is needed now--


Europe and US finally declare that Russian soldiers are fighting in Ukraine


Putin is practicing the Big Lie, and much of the world believes it.
Western news media and diplomats readily adopt Kremlin language. They speak routinely of “rebels, Russian-backed insurgents, separatists, and Ukrainian civil war,” rather than of Russian tanks and missile launchers manned by regular Russian troops, or of Russian generals directing the field of battle, or of Russian military-intelligence forces storming Donetsk airport. Editorial offices throughout the Western world caution: We don’t have 100% proof, so let’s hedge our bets and go along with Putin-speak.

Putin’s Big Lies–no troops and equipment and no influence over separatist allies–are the foundation of his undeclared war on Ukraine narrative. Unwittingly, the Western press, diplomats, and pundits have played along due to their hesitancy to call a spade a spade.

Up until the past week, the West left Putin’s Big Lies unchallenged. Even the most outspoken of critics, such as U.N. ambassador Samantha Power, accused Russia of supplying and training separatists and avoided reference to regular troops.

European and American patience has finally worn out. The dam broke with state department spokeswoman, Jen Psaki, speaking out on February 13 in the following clear words:

The Russian military has deployed a large amount of artillery and multiple rocket launcher systems around Debaltseve where it is shelling Ukrainian positions…We are confident these are Russian military not separatist systems. The Russian military also has air defense systems deployed near Debaltseve. We are also confident these are Russian military not separatist systems.

[JayH]

Who are these "not yours"?
Both young boys (Ukrainians and Russians) are ours.

The difference is that Ukrainians from the President down care about the lives being lost-- Putin and cronies see only their end game as of any consequence and have no care for how many lives are lost--including the lives of Russian military.Do you think the Russian people generally would be happy to hear so many are being killed? Do you think they care about Ukrainian lives being lost and destroyed?

[AkMike]

Both young boys (Ukrainians and Russians) are ours.

Ukraine and Russia will never be brothers again. 

 Nobody will win but Russia will lose, and pay for the war and aggression for many years to come.

[Doll]

Ukraine and Russia will never be brothers again. 

 Nobody will win but Russia will lose, and pay for the war and aggression for many years to come.

They are brothers

[jone]

Arm the Ukrainians.  Kill the invading bastards.

Frankly, after saying for the past twelve months that the US should stay out of Ukraine, I am reversing my opinion.  It is time for the US provide Ukraine equal or better technology than the Russians are arming the DNR forces with. 

Never have I been so pissed off to see a bunch of thugs negotiate with people who are there in good faith only to have them stab the Ukrainians in the back the moment they agree to terms.

It reminds me of the negotiating tactics of the Japanese as they were steaming towards Pearl Harbor.

It is about time that V. V. Putin understands that there isn't going to be a SovUnionII.  It is about time that the Russian people, who constantly believe that the US is an enemy, find out that if the US really were an enemy, Russia could not stand up to us.

I'm pissed with the moves Russia has made since the cease fire agreement.  Now it is time to take action.

I wrote both my Congressman and my two Senators tonight.  All advocating the use of force with lethal weapons. 

[fathertime]

While browsing the internet I came across this piece discussing Poroshenko's options regarding the 8000 surrounded Ukrainian troops. 


---He can demand they fight...but many or most would be killed
----he can allow demand they surround their weapons, and Putin will let them go
---He can do nothing and see what happens. 
--He can send a massive rescue force and try to open a passage for them to escape. 


http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2015-02-17/ukraine-s-president-is-trapped-with-his-troops




Fathertime!   

[lordtiberius]

Who are these "not yours"?
Both young boys (Ukrainians and Russians) are ours.

I wish you will reap what you sow, lady.

[southernX]

Arm the Ukrainians.  Kill the invading bastards.

Frankly, after saying for the past twelve months that the US should stay out of Ukraine, I am reversing my opinion.  It is time for the US provide Ukraine equal or better technology than the Russians are arming the DNR forces with. 

Never have I been so pissed off to see a bunch of thugs negotiate with people who are there in good faith only to have them stab the Ukrainians in the back the moment they agree to terms.

It reminds me of the negotiating tactics of the Japanese as they were steaming towards Pearl Harbor.

It is about time that V. V. Putin understands that there isn't going to be a SovUnionII.  It is about time that the Russian people, who constantly believe that the US is an enemy, find out that if the US really were an enemy, Russia could not stand up to us.

I'm pissed with the moves Russia has made since the cease fire agreement.  Now it is time to take action.

I wrote both my Congressman and my two Senators tonight.  All advocating the use of force with lethal weapons.

agree jone , this pretty much sums up my feeling over the last 10 months to be honest
putin is playing a very dirty game , he needs to be confronted and stopped

SX

[calmissile]

Arm the Ukrainians.  Kill the invading bastards.

Frankly, after saying for the past twelve months that the US should stay out of Ukraine, I am reversing my opinion.  It is time for the US provide Ukraine equal or better technology than the Russians are arming the DNR forces with. 

Never have I been so pissed off to see a bunch of thugs negotiate with people who are there in good faith only to have them stab the Ukrainians in the back the moment they agree to terms.

It reminds me of the negotiating tactics of the Japanese as they were steaming towards Pearl Harbor.

It is about time that V. V. Putin understands that there isn't going to be a SovUnionII.  It is about time that the Russian people, who constantly believe that the US is an enemy, find out that if the US really were an enemy, Russia could not stand up to us.

I'm pissed with the moves Russia has made since the cease fire agreement.  Now it is time to take action.

I wrote both my Congressman and my two Senators tonight.  All advocating the use of force with lethal weapons.

It's about time!   

[Muzh]

While browsing the internet I came across this piece discussing Poroshenko's options regarding the 8000 surrounded Ukrainian troops. 


---He can demand they fight...but many or most would be killed
----he can allow demand they surround their weapons, and Putin will let them go
---He can do nothing and see what happens. 
--He can send a massive rescue force and try to open a passage for them to escape. 


http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2015-02-17/ukraine-s-president-is-trapped-with-his-troops




Fathertime!

Boy, you can't hardly contain your glee.