Ukraine's private "volunteer" militias

[The Natural]

Did you get a chance to look at thos Gubarev photos yet?  Or read the article of the Jews fleeing Donbass to live in Dnipropetrovsk?  Of course the Pro-Russian forces believe they're fighting Nazis and fascists; they've been indoctrinated with this propaganda for over a year.

Now I have read it and understand why jews have fled to Dnipropetrovsk. In short, it's Governor is Israeli Citizen Igor Kolomoisky (billionaire oligarch). I suppose they feel safe there. For now.

But I was puzzled by all of this going on in Ukraine, a bloody mix of nationalism, outright nazism, fascism, zionism, Russophobia and anti-Putin feelings bordering on the insane. And in the middle, regular peaceful folks of different races and religions, including a rather large number of jews. This article below kinda reflects on that, how strange it is that jewish elements and neo-nazis are cooperating, and it Plays right into my original post here, what will happen when the dust settle? It doesn't matter how it is settled. Either Donbass remains Ukrainian, it gets independency or vote to join Russia. All that will end some day. Then what?

Most People here think they will all become peaceful and created a Democracy and be like western countries. My opinion is that will not happen in Our Lifetime. The many different fractions now United against Donbass and Russia will then turn on each other.

Quote:

"One prominent activist for the freedom of Soviet Jews to emigrate, Isi Leibler, does not believe in the change of heart of the modern-day Banderovites who all declare as if on cue that they are not anti-Semites either. He writes in the Jerusalem Post: «These are genuine neo-Nazis who employ swastika symbols and are openly anti-Semitic..."

http://m.strategic-culture.org/news/2014/04/17/zionists-and-anti-semites-in-ukraine-a-strange-union.html

[Boethius]

I reckon of the 2 million plus refugees from Ukraine to Russia, there's a few jews among them too. By the way, jews are also fleeing from Europe, especially France.

I doubt it.  Most Jews in Donbas moved West, not East, and many have decided to emigrate to Israel.  As for "Jews fleeing France", hyperbole.  The emigration numbers are estimated to be 22,000. 

Listen, there IS a nazi or fascist element to the war situation going on in Donbass, which is backed up by the authorities in Kiev. Nobody seems to know the extent of it, certainly nobody here. It is admitted even in mainstream western media, so it's kinda silly to deny it's presence. Maybe I have overemphatized it, I'm not certain. But anti-Russians here are on the other hand grossly undercommunicating it's existence. So there we are, going round in circles....

I've asked you for proof of all these "nazis" in the government in Kyiv.  The fact you refuse to provide the proof is evidence that you are engaging in hyperbole.  There are more fascists in Russia than there are in Ukraine.

[Boethius]

Fascism started off as a political movement in Italy during World War I and spread across Europe during the 1920s and 1930s. Italy’s Benito Mussolini, Germany’s Adolf Hitler and Spain’s Franco are all considered parts of the fascist movement.

At its core, fascism was a reaction to the spread of Western liberal democracy and its values. While Western democracies in France, Britain or the U.S. were based on individual freedom and small government, fascists emphasized the national collective.

They sought a strong state with a powerful army, headed by a dictator who controlled most aspects of life, including press, arts, and sports. Their nationalist myth was rooted in history.

Mussolini saw himself as successor to the Roman emperors, and Hitler to the Germanic leaders and medieval German emperors.

Fascists despised what they perceived as decadent Western values, including everything from democracy, press freedom over expressionist art to homosexuality. 

That doesn't sound like Ukraine's government.  But it does sound a lot like Putin's Russia.

http://www.worldpolicy.org/blog/2014/05/12/why-it%E2%80%99s-time-start-calling-putin-fascist

[Boethius]

Ilya Agron, an entrepreneur in his late twenties, spoke with The Times of Israel shortly after Crimea was annexed by Russia while over 100,000 people cheered at a government-sponsored rally in the Red Square. The crowds gathered under a giant “One People – One Country” slogan. Agron points out that this direct quote from Goebbels’ “Ein Volk, ein Reich, ein Führer” (One People, One Empire, One Leader) was widely used in Nazi propaganda on the eve of and throughout WW II.

“Ninety-eight percent of Russians support current policies and enjoy the revival of state-encouraged patriotism,” he says. “We, the remaining two percent that care about liberal values, are not part of the mainstream.”

On the same day, in another throwback to Nazi-era rhetoric, Putin called those who criticize his policies “national traitors.”

http://www.timesofisrael.com/uneasy-about-future-in-russia-putins-jews-seek-quiet-exit/

Care to provide comments by Ukrainian leaders that are even close to this?

[Boethius]

Ukraine always had a large Jewish community.  The Lubavitch, in particular, have many rabbis and chabad organizations throughout Ukraine.  Many strains of Orthodox Judaism were founded in Ukraine, and their adherents often travel to Ukraine not only to learn their family histories, but also on pilgrimages tied to famous rabbis.

[Boethius]

Uman is a city with a large pilgrimage of Hasidic Jewish visitors annually.  It is one of the most visited places in the world for Hasidic Jews.

[Boethius]

Here's an article on this year's pilgrimage to "Nazi territory" by 30,000 Hasidic Jews -


http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/rosh-hashanah-uman-thousands-hasidic-jews-brave-ukraine-crisis-pilgrimage-tomb-nachman-1467397

[JayH]

While it is a fitting topic for a thread-- the op is so misguided in his comprehension and jaundiced in understanding anything in Ukraine.Reading Kremlin propaganda and reinterpretation of the facts of any given situation is going to do that to any believer.The trick they use is to combine some factual information with some ridiculous extention in conclusion. Right Sector is simply nowhere near a nazi  party.It is a passionate Ukrainian believer in nationalism ie Ukraines controlling Ukrainian destiny.

Not only did they provide the real hard edge at Maidan-they were also vital in the aftermath of Yanukovych fleeing. The provided law and order in the streets then in a period where anything could have happened.
In an aside--in another thread today about Odessa where  I commented --on attending numerous rallies last year.On one occassion I saw  several guys who showed up carrying Russian flags who heckled the crowd.It was on the verge of being more than verbal battle.It was Right Sector guys who stepped in to safely escort the guys away( supervised by Police who did nothing earlier). The RS guys addressed the crowd on the importance of maintaining order and discipline.
That has been an enduring theme in Ukraine.
Currently there has been considerable discussion on how to bring the volunteer battalions into Ukrainian mainstream military-now that is a topic of importance.
No- they are not and never were nazi's.The real nazi's are the  Russian invaders..



Biryukov said about creating volunteer Tank Battalion

Adviser to the President informed about new army.

Adviser to the President and head of the Defense Ministry Yury Biryukov announced the formation of volunteer Tank Battalion. He wrote on Facebook. "Do you think that we only volunteers Donbass-Azov-Duc? How. We have also formed a volunteer tank battalion. The name has not come up," - he said in the social networks
Більше читайте тут: http://tsn.ua/ato/biryukov-rozpoviv-pro-stvorennya-dobrovolchogo-tankovogo-batalyonu-411073.html

[mendeleyev]

Listen, there IS a nazi or fascist element to the war situation going on in Donbass,

I have seen it much more prevalent in Russia than in Ukraine. To say that the Kyiv leadership is Nazi or fascist is to show one's ignorance.

Aside from all the BS you have read, what have you personally seen or experienced?

[sleepycat]

Aside from all the BS you have read, what have you personally seen or experienced?

I think we should make it clear that listening to the Putinist spew from one's brain-washed RW spouse doesn't really count as personally seen or experienced.

[The Natural]

I have seen it much more prevalent in Russia than in Ukraine. To say that the Kyiv leadership is Nazi or fascist is to show one's ignorance.

Aside from all the BS you have read, what have you personally seen or experienced?

You Call me ignorant. Well I Call you, not a journalist but a spin doctor. It's obvious that you and Bo are totally, 100% one-sided and spew constant propaganda. Discussion of actual questions With the war is pointless With you. It's all just statements of "facts" and personal attacks (Bo not so much but some of you guys....)

See Your setting me up here, no, I haven't been in the war area and seen it for myself. Have you? Did you personally get to parttake in some mishandling by Your fascist friends in the Azov batallion?

Fortunately, I  believe there are other members here that welcome viewpoints and information from the other side. But they keep silent because of the majority in here writing anti-Russian, anti-Putin, pro-war trash. One little contrarian comment, and they come Down on you like they were paid do do it. So I'll try and keep my responses to the fascist supporters to a minimum as I have other Things in life to do.

[Doll]

 

[sleepycat]

And on the flip side you want us to take all you Putinist turd as "facts"?
Just because you claim to have a son and an ex still living over there you expect us to believe you aren't inventing stories?
Where are your proof, your own videos?

Let's face it Doll...
You are just jealous that Mendy had gotten closer to your beloved transgender Putin than you ever will have the chance to. 

[Boethius]

You Call me ignorant. Well I Call you, not a journalist but a spin doctor. It's obvious that you and Bo are totally, 100% one-sided and spew constant propaganda. Discussion of actual questions With the war is pointless With you. It's all just statements of "facts" and personal attacks (Bo not so much but some of you guys....)

See Your setting me up here, no, I haven't been in the war area and seen it for myself. Have you? Did you personally get to parttake in some mishandling by Your fascist friends in the Azov batallion?

Fortunately, I  believe there are other members here that welcome viewpoints and information from the other side. But they keep silent because of the majority in here writing anti-Russian, anti-Putin, pro-war trash. One little contrarian comment, and they come Down on you like they were paid do do it. So I'll try and keep my responses to the fascist supporters to a minimum as I have other Things in life to do.

Nope.  I read both sides.  I have based my opinion on what I have read.  Had you bothered to read my posts, you would know that I have stated the terrorists do have some valid issues vis a vis Kyiv.  However, there never would have been war in that region without Russian interference, Russian agents, Russian funding, and Russian equipment.   Had you bothered to read my posts, you would also know that I am no fan of oligarchs who still are running Ukraine, but I do believe Poroshenko has performed relatively well through this crisis.

You, OTOH, have fallen for propaganda about the "fascists running Kyiv".  They may be crooks, they may be there to enrich themselves, but they are not fascists.  In fact, most of them were in the previous government, and in previous governments, including that of your boy Yanukovych.
 
 

[krimster2]

let’s see country has "humiliating defeat" - check
elects strong leader - check
invades neighbors and seizes territory under guise of protecting own people - check
seizes control of media and promotes extreme nationalism - check
creates "cult of personality" around supreme leader - check

this all sounds vaguely familiar
your friend, Maya Rodina

[jone]

You Call me ignorant. Well I Call you, not a journalist but a spin doctor. It's obvious that you and Bo are totally, 100% one-sided and spew constant propaganda. Discussion of actual questions With the war is pointless With you. It's all just statements of "facts" and personal attacks (Bo not so much but some of you guys....)

See Your setting me up here, no, I haven't been in the war area and seen it for myself. Have you? Did you personally get to parttake in some mishandling by Your fascist friends in the Azov batallion?

Fortunately, I  believe there are other members here that welcome viewpoints and information from the other side. But they keep silent because of the majority in here writing anti-Russian, anti-Putin, pro-war trash. One little contrarian comment, and they come Down on you like they were paid do do it. So I'll try and keep my responses to the fascist supporters to a minimum as I have other Things in life to do.

Natural,

I read your post and I read Bo's post.  She is much closer to the truth, IMHO, than you are because you cannot form your arguments like she can.  There are no fascists in Kyiv.  There are Oligarchs who prey on society to enrich themselves.  I believe that at the time of Orange Revolution, Ukraine could have righted the ship had it not been for the self enrichment of these individuals.  If you have read my thoughts over the years on Tymoshenko, she made only $114,000 a year as PM of Ukraine.  But she enriched herself by over 500 Million dollars during the time before and after she was in office.

If you take the perspective that the former rulers of Ukraine were absolute scoundrels, then you can easily see how the country slipped out of control.  It is much easier to understand this than to contrive that the current government is fascist.  If anyone is fascist right now, it is the Russian government who would not allow this type of conversation that we are having right now to occur on Russian soil.

I believe that Ukraine is in a terrible position right now because of events leading up to Maidan.  But I also believe that the rampant corruption of and dictatorial control in Russia right now puts that country on the same course that Ukraine traveled to get to Maidan.

This is what the leaders in Russia are most afraid of.  After all, if Kyiv can be rocked by a Maidan, what's to stop that from happening in Moscow?

[mendeleyev]

See Your setting me up here, no, I haven't been in the war area and seen it for myself. Have you?

Yes, I write from experience and intelligence.

Some time ago I posted a ton of links, for you, where I had written very positively about Mr. Putin.

I do not think you have the ability to understand facts, but just in case: I still refer to President Putin in that fashion. AP, Guardian, and Chicago Styles for journalists call for using the last name only after the first reference has been to the title, or to "Mr," and I generally do that. Rarely have I ever called him names, other than his nickname.

So, given those links, which you obviously did not read, I am not against Mr. Putin. I do as of late oppose most of his actions in regards to Ukraine.

Did you personally get to parttake in some mishandling by Your fascist friends in the Azov batallion?

Aside from understanding how to spell 'partake' and 'battalion' there is where you and I differ. You make an arse of yourself by assuming that all members of that group are racist. I know several of them, and they are not.

I was on Maidan for reasons other than participating in the protests.

If you'd be so kind, be more specific in how "mishandling" has happened, please. I am eager to know your personal examples, not some bullcrap spewed in some article or RT broadcast.

[The Natural]

This is what the leaders in Russia are most afraid of.  After all, if Kyiv can be rocked by a Maidan, what's to stop that from happening in Moscow?

You bet they are concerned about that, a regime change. And who do you think is in the business of regime change around the globe? I present to you the State Department and CIA. They are the real brains behind the coup. The ones on the ground is just useful idiots participating in a Proxy war With Russia. Did you hear about the attempted coup in Macedonia, Jone? CIA and Victoria Nuland at work


So of course Kremlin needs to make sure that doesn't happen in Russia. That's why NGO's have to register as Foreign agents. The US has done that for decades. The neocons "Project for the New American Century" outlines it all. They don't want Russia or any other nation to stand in the way of their unipolar world order and they crave the vast resources of Russia. It seems most everybody on Earth knows this except Joe Average.

[Boethius]

There is no proof, NONE, that the CIA was behind Euromaidan, and I personally do not believe they were.  Had the US wanted "regime change" in Ukraine, it would have happened long ago.

What you fail to realize, and this is something that Crimeans, who had self rule, did not see, is that corruption increased dramatically under Yanukovych.  Well before the coup, I read a post by a woman (a Russian who had moved to southeastern Ukraine in Soviet times) that "we are tired of all the corruption".  If you read Ukrainian commentary at that time, and listened to the average Ukrainian, the country was on the verge of explosion well before Euromaidan because of the high levels of corruption.

I personally believe Euromaidan was orchestrated by politicians who were not getting a piece of the pie during Yanukovych's reign.  It was done to preserve their positions, and by that time, many oligarchs were no longer supporting Yanukovych. 

I believe though, that what happened is that Ukrainian activists took up the cause, because they were tired of living with this extreme corruption.  I think had the war not occurred, there would have been more progress made against corruption, though it will take a generation for real change in this regard.

As for NGO's, most NGO's left Russia.  It wasn't registration that drove them out, BTW.  In Ukraine, NGO's have resulted in a far more diverse, and democratic society.  You don't have to see it that way, but that is a fact.
 
 

[Boethius]

The neocons "Project for the New American Century" outlines it all. They don't
want Russia or any other nation to stand in the way of their unipolar world
order and they crave the vast resources of Russia.

You are probably closer on the political spectrum to the neocons than am I, but I have never read anything in which they state they want to control Russia's resources.  Care to share links to this?

[The Natural]

You are probably closer on the political spectrum to the neocons than am I, but I have never read anything in which they state they want to control Russia's resources.  Care to share links to this?

Absolutely not. I am far from anything Close to the neocons. They believe in US hegemony over the globe (to the benefit of their Corporations). I believe in a multipolar world, a world where countries are Sovereign.

I wanted to link to my previous post, but forgot. Russia doesn't need to be mentioned specifically, it goes for ALL nations. It's just that Russia and China are that more stronger now than before, that they know Washington is moving on them.

http://www.oldamericancentury.org/pnac.htm

[Boethius]

I believe in a multipolar world, a world where countries are Sovereign

Based on your posts, that love of sovereignty doesn't apply to Ukraine.

The link to the PNAC document doesn't work on your link.

The neocons do not have the support of the current administration, and don't have the support of most conservatives.  I don't know if they would have any traction if Jeb Bush wins the presidency.
 

[jone]

You bet they are concerned about that, a regime change. And who do you think is in the business of regime change around the globe? I present to you the State Department and CIA. They are the real brains behind the coup. The ones on the ground is just useful idiots participating in a Proxy war With Russia. Did you hear about the attempted coup in Macedonia, Jone? CIA and Victoria Nuland at work


So of course Kremlin needs to make sure that doesn't happen in Russia. That's why NGO's have to register as Foreign agents. The US has done that for decades. The neocons "Project for the New American Century" outlines it all. They don't want Russia or any other nation to stand in the way of their unipolar world order and they crave the vast resources of Russia. It seems most everybody on Earth knows this except Joe Average.

Please explain this section of your post.  I have created many corporations and what we call 501(c)3's (not for profit corporations).  None had to be registered by the government.  Some were even pseudo governmental or lobbying type organizations.  You need to understand more about the USA before you go stating things like this. 

I think Bo adequately expressed my feelings about the CIA's involvement.

[Steamer]

I've asked you for proof of all these "nazis" in the government in Kyiv.  The fact you refuse to provide the proof is evidence that you are engaging in hyperbole.

How about this glorious leader of Ukraine ?  Stepan Bandera


                                             



                                           

[Boethius]

Bandera was not a Nazi.  UPA was initially a fascist party, but so were a lot of political movements at that time.  UPA eventually abandoned its fascist platform.  However, it was always very nationalistic.
 
Incidentally, Bandera was never a leader of Ukraine.  You may need to go back for some history lessons from non Russian sources.