Poll: Among US citizens has increased the number of supporters of Ukraine weapon

[AkMike]

Poll: Among US citizens has increased the number of supporters of Ukraine weapons

 February 24, 2015,

 By Putin negative attitude 70% of Americans In the United States increased the number of supporters of Ukrainian weapons, but they are still less than those who consider such a move inappropriate.

  The US increased the number of supporters of Ukrainian weapons, but they are still less than those who consider such a move impractical. This is evidenced by the results of a study conducted by Pew Research Center. Compared with April 2014, the number of people who support the provision of weapons Ukraine in its confrontation with Russia increased from 30 to 41 per cent in February. 53 percent of respondents do not support this idea (against 62 in April). Support arms supplies to Ukraine mostly Republicans (51 percent, while among Democrats - 40 percent).
 
  On the negative attitude to Russian President Vladimir Putin said 70 percent of respondents, compared with 12 percent of respondents who sympathize with him. Six out of ten respondents in recent research supports the tightening of Washington's sanctions against Russia, 34 percent voted against. See also: Ukrainian Foreign Ministry: We do not want to scare anyone, but we are preparing for full-scale war Lithuania intends to purchase from German armored howitzers  US senators: Ukraine should immediately give weapons, Russia - disable SWIFT
  77 percent of Americans polled believe that what is going on between Ukraine and Russia is important. The study lasted from 18 to 22 February. Interviewed 1504 people aged 18+ in all US states.


http://nr2.com.ua/News/Ukraine_and_Europe/Opros-Sredi-grazhdan-SSHA-vozroslo-kolichestvo-storonnikov-predostavleniya-Ukraine-oruzhiya-90947.html

[lordtiberius]

Just think of all the Ukrainians that need to die before we get on the right side of history . . .

[krimster2]

There is an historical precedent of the USA arming Russia’s adversaries.  During the Russo-Turkish War of 1877, Winchester rifles inflicted heavy casualties on the Russians.  This was essentially a private contract between the Turkish government and Winchester.  Why can’t we do that today?

However, what I see as a bigger problem for Ukraine is the poor military turn-out.  From on-line sources I’ve gathered that Ukraine has been able to field 65,000 soldiers in Eastern Ukraine.  This out of a population of 42 million.  For comparison’s sake, the Confederacy during the US civil war with a population of 9 million, was able to field over a million soldiers.  During the Russo-Finnish war, the Finns with a population of only 2 million were able to field around 200,000 soldiers.  It makes Ukraine’s numbers look really pathetic.  It should be noted that Ukraine also has a vast armaments industry, granted some of it has been reduced to rubble now, such as the rather historic cartridge making factory in Lugansk, but there are missile mfgs all over Ukraine.  Where is their inventory when it’s needed?  It seems to me that Ukraine is missing a lot of manpower as well as material from this conflict, and as result, are trying to "hook" outsiders into supporting it militarily as well as economically.  Before the US or Europe makes any military commitments to Ukraine, I would like Ukraine to explain why it has so few soldiers defending their homeland from attack and why with so many military manufacturers, it has difficulty supplying equipment to them, the answers might be interesting...   

[lordtiberius]

Everything you said is true.

The CIA factbook says Ukraine has a man power of 8 million, but less than a quarter million are fit for military service. 

Also the historical comparisons you bring up must be considered in context.  The Finns would never call the Russians brothers were many Ukrainians until recently did.  Also both the American Civil War and Finnish war had long periods of prewar hostility.  Also the odds of winning were balanced.  The Ukrainians don't enjoy those circumstances.

Also Russia too has to mask its involvement.

Its best to arm those that can fight with superior firepower and cut Russia fro. SWIFT




http://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/up.hill

[Chelseaboy]

This goes back to a post i made on here some time ago,in which i was querying why ,on the information i'd been given  by women in Ukraine, the vast majority of young able-bodied men in Ukraine were still busily frequenting nightclubs in Ukraine rather than fighting for their country.

Strange behavior for such a so-called patriotic people who it's been claimed would fight till their last breath.

Certainly a very good reason why no non-Ukrainian troops should get involved in the conflict.If so many young Ukrainian men can't be bothered to fight for their country why should anybody else ?

Maybe that's why the west is so reluctant to get involved militarily..after seeing the apathy among Ukrainian men.

It seems some of the posters on here are more concerned about what is happening in Ukraine than many Ukrainians are.

[Chelseaboy]

lordtiberius,

                   In a population of 42 million..do we know why less than 250,000 are considered  fit enough to use an AK-47 ?

Considering the young men in Ukraine are so unfit for active service,it makes one wonder why men from other countries find it so difficult to extract nubile young women out of that country..when the local men are apparently so useless.

After all,young British Muslims,straight out of Uni ,don't seem to have any problems learning how to fire AK-47'S and fighting

[Brasscasing]

There is an historical precedent of the USA arming Russia’s adversaries.  During the Russo-Turkish War of 1877, Winchester rifles inflicted heavy casualties on the Russians.  This was essentially a private contract between the Turkish government and Winchester.  Why can’t we do that today?

However, what I see as a bigger problem for Ukraine is the poor military turn-out.  From on-line sources I’ve gathered that Ukraine has been able to field 65,000 soldiers in Eastern Ukraine.  This out of a population of 42 million.  For comparison’s sake, the Confederacy during the US civil war with a population of 9 million, was able to field over a million soldiers.  During the Russo-Finnish war, the Finns with a population of only 2 million were able to field around 200,000 soldiers.  It makes Ukraine’s numbers look really pathetic.  It should be noted that Ukraine also has a vast armaments industry, granted some of it has been reduced to rubble now, such as the rather historic cartridge making factory in Lugansk, but there are missile mfgs all over Ukraine.  Where is their inventory when it’s needed?  It seems to me that Ukraine is missing a lot of manpower as well as material from this conflict, and as result, are trying to "hook" outsiders into supporting it militarily as well as economically.  Before the US or Europe makes any military commitments to Ukraine, I would like Ukraine to explain why it has so few soldiers defending their homeland from attack and why with so many military manufacturers, it has difficulty supplying equipment to them, the answers might be interesting...   

Ukraine was spending about 2.55% of GDP (2012) (CIA Fact Book) on their peace time army before the agitation and eventual Russian invasion. Since 2012 they've increased their spending to 5% of GDP (2015).

Keep in mind Ukraine is not a rich country and you still need to feed, supply and pay a peace time military the same as a war time military. It also takes time to increase, train, supply and deploy a war time military.

What should also be kept in mind is that until the Russians started large deployments of men and equipment inside Ukraine, Ukraine's military (as it existed) was pretty well mopping the floor with the terrorists/separatists.

Since 2012 (or basically the start of hostilities) Ukraine has increased their military budgets (across the board) and is introducing conscription. As of 2015 by most reports they have well over 200,000 active personnel (all branches).

Missiles-Ukraine's military-industrial complex accounted for 4.4% of Russia's overall missile manufacturing. However, it was component production/maintenance as far as I can source.

When that partnership was terminated so was the missile industry.

This article excerpt explains it adequately for the most part...

Loss of Ukraine's military-industrial complex will cost Russia $938 million

“Kiev and Moscow took many steps to ensure that their mutually beneficial collaboration would remain unspoiled. For Russia, the loss of maintenance for the SS-18 Satan and SS-25 ICBM is especially critical,” Director of the Institute of Strategic Analysis Alexander Konovalov told RBTH.

According to him, the missiles are designed and produced by Russian manufacturers, but their guidance systems are made in Kharkov, 470 kilometers from Kiev. Moreover, the missiles undergo maintenance service at Ukraine's Yuzhmash Factory in Dnepropetrovsk (300 miles from Kiev).

“The Ukrainian factory’s service teams carried out technical examinations of Russian rockets on a regular basis,” Konovalov said.

“If any maintenance work needed to be done, employees would take the rocket back to Ukraine with them, perform the necessary upkeep procedures, and re-tool the mechanism in question. Now all that will have to be recreated from scratch.”

- http://rbth.com/business/2014/07/23/loss_of_ukraines_military-industrial_complex_will_cost_russia_938_mi_38445.html)

Brass



 

[lordtiberius]

lordtiberius,

                   In a population of 42 million..do we know why less than 250,000 are considered  fit enough to use an AK-47 ?

Considering the young men in Ukraine are so unfit for active service,it makes one wonder why men from other countries find it so difficult to extract nubile young women out of that country..when the local men are apparently so useless.

After all,young British Muslims,straight out of Uni ,don't seem to have any problems learning how to fire AK-47'S and fighting

These are the same arguments Thomas Theiner and John Schindler made over twitter.  The facts favor you.    Schindler wanted a 2 million man Army.  But who would train this 2 million man Army?  Also where are the guns, ammo and uniforms going to come from? Who would Ukraine feed or pay this Army?  How can you ensure the loyalty of this Army if you don't pay it?

Thomas Theiner criticized Poroshenko for not taking deals from Poland, France, Italy and another NATO member for arms on credit (lend lease). Poroshenko wanted it for free.  Only Lithuania is supplying it for free.  Canada may or may not be supplying Ukraine with arms for free. 

The current mobilization is for a quarter million man army which is in keeping with the CIA factbook estimates.  And contrary to popular belief, those reporting for duty aren't coming from the West and Central regions but from the South and East.

My 30 yo BIL got his draft notice.  He has a wife and a 4 year old son.  The Ministry of War may take my FIL who is 54 yo and hasn't been paid regular wages for months.  What do you suggest they do?

The more relevant historical example is the American Revolution.  Less than 2% of the population fought in the war.  Less than 1% serve in the American Army with all of our lavish benefits compared to even our own NATO from Western Europe.

[lordtiberius]

Add one more, the West must ARM UKRAINE with superior firepower and DENY SWIFT FOR PUTIN.

[Darth_Budda]

I see a similarity to the Spanish Civil War, my self...

What I don't get is the people of Kiev Kicked out one Oligarch and replaced him with another? Why...  Just a few years ago they were buddies right?

Why did they not take back the majority of the wealth that these oligarchs current and former stole from the people?

[lordtiberius]

I see a similarity to the Spanish Civil War, my self...

What I don't get is the people of Kiev Kicked out one Oligarch and replaced him with another? Why...  Just a few years ago they were buddies right?

Why did they not take back the majority of the wealth that these oligarchs current and former stole from the people?

Poroshenko is an Oligarch.  But why?  Because he had priviledged access to capital where most Ukies don't.  Ok. [So does Wall Street.]  Akhmetov and Yanukovych have criminal records.  Akhmetov killed people.  Does Petro fit in that category?  What about Kolomoyskyi?  I don't think so. . .

Poroshenko built what I believe is the most successful brand in Ukraine.  People LOVE ROSHEN chocolate.  He built that.  Jus' sayin'

[Boethius]

He built it by stealing the most well known chocolate factory in Kyiv.
 
Just sayin'.

[Darth_Budda]

Poroshenko is an Oligarch.  But why?  Because he had priviledged access to capital where most Ukies don't.  Ok. [So does Wall Street.]  Akhmetov and Yanukovych have criminal records.  Akhmetov killed people.  Does Petro fit in that category?  What about Kolomoyskyi?  I don't think so. . .

Poroshenko built what I believe is the most successful brand in Ukraine.  People LOVE ROSHEN chocolate.  He built that.  Jus' sayin'

Poroshenko = Pinochet ,,, Give him time...

He will conscript Evey last un willing body in Kiev to satisfy his lust for power...

I could be wrong...

[Chelseaboy]

lordtiberius,

If another country invaded the USA or UK i'd hope being paid for fighting is the last thing that would be on the minds of the local men...as long as they and their families are fed.

From what we hear from Crimea the Russians have taken businesses and homes from Ukrainians,so if they take the rest of Ukraine there's a good chance the same would happen...that's the homes they haven't already destroyed of course during their conquest.

After what the Russian troops did to the women of East Germany following the 2nd World War, what would happen to Ukrainian women who are not ethnic Russians ?
I've heard Chechen mercenaries are a brutal bunch .

Ukrainian men seem to be sleep-walking over what may await them  and their women....20 % of the country has been taken already....they ought to be lining up to volunteer for at least military training,and that includes those from the west and central regions.

[Chelseaboy]

Darth_Budda,

                     Does trying to prevent your country being overrun by terrorists and troops from another country denote a lust for power ?

Would you expect Obama to capitulate if China for example invaded the USA ?

Would your President calling up people to fight the Chinese constitute a lust for power from him ?

[Darth_Budda]

Darth_Budda,

                     Does trying to prevent your country being overrun by terrorists and troops from another country denote a lust for power ?

Would you expect Obama to capitulate if China for example invaded the USA ?

Would your President calling up people to fight the Chinese constitute a lust for power from him ?

First off,,, I have a friend who is fighting for the DPR "that's east Ukraine."
I do not consider him or the people of east Ukraine Terrorists....

believe it or not,, Eastern Ukraine is full of Russian speaking Ukrainians, Who by chance Look the same as Ukrainian speaking Russians..

I just don't buy this one sided narrative that western media is pulling.... The USA has super satellites,,, were is the proof.....

No More "Yellow Cake." I hope you know what I am referencing. If not than you have already forgot history...

[Boethius]

Most Central Ukrainians speak Russian as their daily language as well.  This war is not about language.  Don't be deluded into thinking that.

[Darth_Budda]

Most Central Ukrainians speak Russian as their daily language as well.  This war is not about language.  Don't be deluded into thinking that.

1 agree,, but my point was only that you can't really tell by video or picture who is Russian and Who is Ukrainian,,,,

Maybe it would be different for a Russian or Ukrainian... 

To be honest you put a American, English man, Ukrainian and a Russian in a room, dress them all the same. I bet it would be hard to guess...

[Chelseaboy]

Darth_Budda

It's the people fighting for the DPR who have the lust for power...they are opportunists who have taken advantage of what happened in Crimea to further their own agenda's.

I can tell you all about what's going on in Donetsk..i have a friend living there too

The majority of people in Mariupol are quite happy to remain part of Ukraine,so who's been shelling them ?

There was no problems between ethnic Russians and Ukrainians before the fighting started..instigated by pro- Russian terrorists waving their Russian flags and attacking
Ukrainians in Donetsk and Lugansk..and now they're starting in Kharkov.

[Darth_Budda]

I think people who live on the land have a right decide their own lives,, opportunists maybe, but thats their right..

You can't really call every one in the east Terrorists, it just makes one sound fundamentalist...

If the Issue was so one sided than why has no one won?

Question.. How many Ukrainians have fled to Terrorist Russia?

It just does not add up,,,, If ISIS was attacking me I am not gonna flee to their capital...

I say let them figure it out.. no weapons for either side.. With out fuel and ammo, they will be forced to the table...

The more NATO sends to Kiev, the more Russia sends to the DPR.. "if Russia is in fact supplying them, I need proof"

You brits can do what you want, but Working Class Americans are sick of endless wars for the rich... Let Joe Biden offer his son to the front lines... He already got him a job in ukraine working oil....

To be honest it's not fair to push Kiev down the path of more war.. It only encourages more death on both sides. 

[fathertime]

First off,,, I have a friend who is fighting for the DPR "that's east Ukraine."
I do not consider him or the people of east Ukraine Terrorists....

believe it or not,, Eastern Ukraine is full of Russian speaking Ukrainians, Who by chance Look the same as Ukrainian speaking Russians..

I just don't buy this one sided narrative that western media is pulling.... The USA has super satellites,,, were is the proof.....

No More "Yellow Cake." I hope you know what I am referencing. If not than you have already forgot history...

+580


Fathertime!   

[Chelseaboy]

Darth_Budda,

So,you think members of the DPR have the right to haul business people out of their businesses at gunpoint and force them to sign over their businesses to them ?

You think members of the DPR have the right to insist that all residents,the ones that are still left,must only speak Russian ?

You think members of the DPR have the right to walk into car showrooms and take any car they want without paying ?

This is not western propaganda..this is what has been happening in Donetsk in reality.....maybe your friend forgot to mention that to you.

How many of the people that fled to Russia are ethnic Russians ?

I do agree that this war is about the rich..rich Oligarchs in their quest for more power and pro-Russian terrorists and assorted mercenaries who want to join them at the head of the table.

[fathertime]

Thomas Theiner criticized Poroshenko for not taking deals from Poland, France, Italy and another NATO member for arms on credit (lend lease). Poroshenko wanted it for free.  Only Lithuania is supplying it for free.  Canada may or may not be supplying Ukraine with arms for free. 
 

So the question can be asked...did Poroshenko not take the weapons because he knew he didn't have a willing army to take them, or was he just being cheap?


Fathertime!   

[Boethius]

Question.. How many Ukrainians have fled to Terrorist Russia?

Many have.  But more than double that number fled to other areas of Ukraine. 

[Boethius]

I say let them figure it out.. no weapons for either side.. With out fuel and
ammo, they will be forced to the table...

There are three sides in this conflict.