Top U.S. general says it is time to consider arming Ukrainian forces

[mendeleyev]

Neville:

While that isn't a bad argument, you are making a lot of assumptions about how it will be perceived by Russians.

When one lives, works, has family, and experience in the region, some assumptions are simply logical. Plus, as part of a family with both Russian and Ukrainian relatives, I do not have to make it an argument. I simply observe.

[Muzh]

Perhaps not.

Ochka has distant relatives living in both Ukraine and Russia.  When the Ukrainian person tells the Russian what is happening regarding various events in Ukraine, the Russian responds by saying the Ukrainian does not know what is happening in Ukraine.  But the Russian knows because he/she sees it on Russian TV or reads in Russian newspaper.

I think Muzh reported also that an elderly relative was injured by Russian bullies in Kharkiv.  When telling this to her relative in Russia, the Russian replied that she must have just fallen and hurt herself.

Exact same scenario. Unfortunately.

[fathertime]

Partisan Hack:

Neville:
When one lives, works, has family, and experience in the region, some assumptions are simply logical. Plus, as part of a family with both Russian and Ukrainian relatives, I do not have to make it an argument. I simply observe.

Thanks for bringing your observations to light.  You observe a sliver, and may suffer from observer bias/confirmation bias.  Many others see/experience different things, which is why it is best to hear from various sources.   


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias






Fathertime!   

[lordtiberius]

Bring on the blah blah.  Once again a Novorossiya member is derailing a thread with personal attacks rather than debate issues with facts and logic.

[LiveFromUkraine]

Bring on the blah blah.  Once again a Novorossiya member is derailing a thread with personal attacks rather than debate issues with facts and logic.

Once again you play the hypocrite victim.

You are an idiot (nothing personal).

[Muzh]

Once again you play the hypocrite victim.

Obviously he cannot see it. 

[fathertime]

Bring on the blah blah.  Once again a Novorossiya member is derailing a thread with personal attacks rather than debate issues with facts and logic.

The hypocrisy of your post makes for good unintentional hilarity!   


Fathertime!   

[mendeleyev]

Neville:

You observe a sliver

If by living, working, paying taxes, loving family, greeting neighbors, attending church, enjoying the beauty of the region and the people is as you say, only a sliver, then for you who has never set foot in the region and neither speaking the language or understanding the culture, what does that say about your viewpoint?

[lordtiberius]

I would love to be proven wrong.  But if I were to model this behavior and bet money, my guess is that whatever happens in Russia and Ukraine, the US (and de facto European) response will be more deep concern.

The US  (and de facto Europe) has lots of business interests (Schlumberger, Exxon Mobil, Boeing GM, McDonalds, Wendys, Pepsi, Coca Cola, to name a few) in Russia.  The wisdom of those investments are another matter.  But these same business interests run contrary World peace and common decency.  When events like this arise, it is up to men and women of goodwill to overcome these business interests and help the good people win over the bad people.

[fathertime]

Partisan Hack:

  what does that say about your viewpoint?

My viewpoint on what?   




Going from your implied 'logic'.  People living here in the states shouldn't voice their opinion if it is in opposition to arming Ukraine.  If that is the case, then I say YOU shouldn't have much of a viewpoint as to what is done here in the states with OUR weaponry, since you live/breathe/attend church/ in Russia/Ukraine.


Fathertime!   

[Muzh]

I would love to be proven wrong.  But if I were to model this behavior and bet money, my guess is that whatever happens in Russia and Ukraine, the US (and de facto European) response will be more deep concern.

The US  (and de facto Europe) has lots of business interests (Schlumberger, Exxon Mobil, Boeing GM, McDonalds, Wendys, Pepsi, Coca Cola, to name a few) in Russia.  The wisdom of those investments are another matter.  But these same business interests run contrary World peace and common decency.  When events like this arise, it is up to men and women of goodwill to overcome these business interests and help the good people win over the bad people.

Most of them are gone and the remaining few have been told the the US State Department that they should close shop and move out because it is not safe for them anymore.


So, what business interest has the US in Russia?


Not to mention that it is hostile territory for any foreign investor.

[mendeleyev]

Wendy's left Russia about a year ago. I miss my favourite double cheeseburgers! 

[Boethius]

Partisan Hack:

My viewpoint on what?   




Going from your implied 'logic'.  People living here in the states shouldn't voice their opinion if it is in opposition to arming Ukraine.  If that is the case, then I say YOU shouldn't have much of a viewpoint as to what is done here in the states with OUR weaponry, since you live/breathe/attend church/ in Russia/Ukraine.


Fathertime!

What does that have to do with how the average Russian lives?


I know how the average person in my city lives, even though I see only a sliver as well.  I know how much things cost here, how much the average person makes.  I can see how much disposable income people have by how full restaurants, theatres, and sporting events are.  So, I have little doubt Mendy can know the same thing. 


Odd, as today, running our errands, hubby and I were talking about his favourite city (St. Petersburg) and Moscow.  He commented on how expensive it is to survive in Moscow.  He, like Mendy, has relatives there.

[alex330]

YOU shouldn't have much of a viewpoint as to what is done here in the states with OUR weaponry,

As an American I would much rather see our used and aging military equipment put to use in Ukraine rather than handed down to local police forces under the 1033 program. We have so much surplus from the wars and in storage and with our new technologies much of it will be obsolete soon.

[fathertime]

What does that have to do with how the average Russian lives?


I know how the average person in my city lives, even though I see only a sliver as well.  I know how much things cost here, how much the average person makes.  I can see how much disposable income people have by how full restaurants, theatres, and sporting events are.  So, I have little doubt Mendy can know the same thing. 


Odd, as today, running our errands, hubby and I were talking about his favourite city (St. Petersburg) and Moscow.  He commented on how expensive it is to survive in Moscow.  He, like Mendy, has relatives there.

You must have your threads confused or something....on THIS thread the Partisan Hack and I were talking about assumptions as it pertains to potential future reactions if there were to be a much larger scale war.....absolutely nothing to do with how expensive it is to dine in St Petersburg.


 What he believes will be the reaction is not necessarily the truth, it is what he believes, others have expressed different reactions, as has already been quietly expressed on this thread. [size=78%]  [/size]


Fathertime!   

[fathertime]

As an American I would much rather see our used and aging military equipment put to use in Ukraine rather than handed down to local police forces under the 1033 program. We have so much surplus from the wars and in storage and with our new technologies much of it will be obsolete soon.

Well Alex I'm sure you aren't the only one....although I would hope having the 'excess' equipment around and given or sold to Ukraine doesn't get us involved in an escalating foreign war.  I'd rather it just stay in storage for now. 


Fathertime!     

[alex330]

Well Alex I'm sure you aren't the only one....although I would hope having the 'excess' equipment around and given or sold to Ukraine doesn't get us involved in an escalating foreign war.  I'd rather it just stay in storage for now.

Looks like those in charge are one thought ahead of me.

http://www.stripes.com/news/army-looking-to-store-tanks-equipment-in-eastern-europe-1.325693

I feel war is inevitable to be honest. Maybe not now in Ukraine, maybe not in the next few years, but eventually we will go to war with Russia over the Arctic.

[lordtiberius]

What he believes will be the reaction is not necessarily the truth, it is what he believes,

He has never claimed that.  The only claim he has made on that score is that he knows more than you.  And frankly that is not a tall boast for anyone on the forum or off it to make.

others have expressed different reactions, as has already been quietly expressed on this thread.

Like you and Belvis?  I am sure that would be a fun party.

[lordtiberius]

but eventually we will go to war with Russia over the Arctic.

The Arctic is  place ideal for Submarine warfare.  The modernization for the Russian Armed Forces is actually quite modest and stands not to give the Russian Navy a great leap forward.  Its boats are rickety but still have enough dash to shame the Swedes.

I wonder if our Novorossiya scum bags would support defending ourselves if the Russians fire first on us in the North Pole.

[fathertime]

Like you and Belvis?  I am sure that would be a fun party.

Obviously you didn't read the thread to carefully, or perhaps you can't understand who said what, but Belvis didn't even comment recently. 

He has never claimed that.  The only claim he has made on that score is that he knows more than you.  And frankly that is not a tall boast for anyone on the forum or off it to make.
 

Actually he didn't make that claim, although if he did as it pertains to Russia/Ukraine  I obviously wouldn't dispute it.   I do know this for certain, YOUR judgement is particularly bad, so even if you had/knew all the facts, it is likely you would make a bad call on what to do. 


Fathertime!   

[fathertime]

Looks like those in charge are one thought ahead of me.

http://www.stripes.com/news/army-looking-to-store-tanks-equipment-in-eastern-europe-1.325693

I feel war is inevitable to be honest. Maybe not now in Ukraine, maybe not in the next few years, but eventually we will go to war with Russia over the Arctic.

Well Alex, we have to get past this latest crisis...When/if the Arctic becomes a major issue then we will have to find a way through that one too.  I don't think we should jump the gun when it comes to a major war, because we think we may have one in the future.  There may come a day when oil isn't as important as it is now, and if that is the resource in dispute in the Arctic the potential dispute could be defused.


  What in particular is it that makes you think we are going to war over the Arctic?


Fathertime! 

[lordtiberius]

Obviously you didn't read the thread to carefully, or perhaps you can't understand who said what, but Belvis didn't even comment recently. 





Actually he didn't make that claim, although if he did as it pertains to Russia/Ukraine  I obviously wouldn't dispute it.   I do know this for certain, YOUR judgement is particularly bad, so even if you had/knew all the facts, it is likely you would make a bad call on what to do. 


Fathertime!

He made the claim huh?

Post the link or quote it

[alex330]

  What in particular is it that makes you think we are going to war over the Arctic?

It is the last frontier and the race is on. Oil is not the only resource the Arctic has to offer, in fact with new technology oil may already be on it's way out as you mention. Both sides are building up militarily and staging war games. Domestically we are training certain units with emphasis on mountain and arctic warfare. I could be wrong, but it certainly appears to be heating up.

[fathertime]

He made the claim huh?

Post the link or quote it

You aren't reading/comprehending very well this evening.  What you asking for makes no sense based on the statements I made.  Would you like to try again?


Fathertime!   

[fathertime]

It is the last frontier and the race is on. Oil is not the only resource the Arctic has to offer, in fact with new technology oil may already be on it's way out as you mention. Both sides are building up militarily and staging war games. Domestically we are training certain units with emphasis on mountain and arctic warfare. I could be wrong, but it certainly appears to be heating up.

Interesting, I shall keep up on this a little more.  Is there any resource in particular that countries are going to fight over? I would think that the dominant claims on the Arctic would be Russia, USA, and Canada...although as I read, I found out a little more:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Territorial_claims_in_the_Arctic


Fathertime!