Rich Americans

[jb]

This is, IMHO, a terrible arguement for a European to start....  USD vs Euro is really just a bunch of funny bookkeeping.

If, for example, the USA decided the EU were finally "on it's feet" enough to provide for it's own defense, and stopped funding NATO with about 3% of the total American GDP annually, (a really big number) and those so-called very rich European countries, which actually only cough up slightly more than a single % of their own GDP (a really small number), then subtract out of the equation that amount of USDs that support American bases in Europe.  The Euro would be worth something on the order of the Russian RU.  About 25 to the dollar.

Don't believe everytjomg you read in the EU newspapers.

http://www.nato.int/docu/handbook/2001/hb090804.htm

[Turboguy]

Well DKMM,

Sorry to piss in your cornflakes -

Damn,  no more cornflakes for me, I am going to be a Wheaties man from now on.  I would hate to get into the wrong box of flakes.

Now that I know things are that bad here I had better cut my own pay or read the next post and give myself a pay raise.

[BillyB]

The argument America has large external debt is widely known and gets all kinds of criticisms. What most people don't know it's not such as bad thing entirely. Real debt is when a country is short on food, medicine and full of disease. Also, almost ALL countries have debt! The most prosperous countries in the world have the most debt. It's a normal way of life. It only takes a few EU countries to surpass the U.S. in debt. So for the Americans out there listening to politicians making you feel bad to get your vote, you're not alone and you're not that bad off. I got news for you, you're living in one of the most prosperous nations ever.
 http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/rankorder/2079rank.html

Leslie, the Euro was destined to move up or down when it was inaugurated. It has found it's place. Now is the time to see how it moves against other currencies.

[PeeWee]

"A long period of high growth has made the USA far and away the world’s richest
region. For several centuries Europe led the world in terms of prosperity and progress.
As little as a hundred years ago, much of the American continent was virgin wilderness.
Today, a hundred years later, the USA has completely overtaken Europe to become
the unrivalled leader of the world economy. Most Americans have a standard of living
which the majority of Europeans will never come any where near. The really prosperous
American regions have nearly twice the affluence of Europe. It is worth reminding ourselves
what this means. In these regions the average American can get exactly twice as
much of everything as the average European. Which goes to show the importance of an
economic policy to stimulate growth."

Source:  EU VERSUS USA
Fredrik Bergström & Robert Gidehag
Timbro, June 2004
ISBN 91-7566-564-6
TIMBRO BOX 5234 SE-102 45 Stockholm

Huh. Does this mean that we can get twice as many RW as those lads in Europe can? I think so!

Peewee

[Turboguy]

You guys are going to give me an inferiority complex.   I still live in a 106 year old house and drive a pick up with 120,000 miles on it.  You are making me feel I should hit the soup kitchen.   

[Son of Clyde]

Leslie, I am glad you rarely respond to my posts because the responses are overly pompous and condescending. You deleted your post as if we cared about what you deleted. You can piss off more people with just a few sentences than anyone else on the board. Well at least you did not use bold letters to tell us we are bad people and that we are totally wrong.

[jb]

Clyde,

The link I provided gives all the economic information required to refute the "USD vs Euro" value or devalue contest to anyone diligent enough to pour through it.  The chief reason why Europe's economy has been able to grow to the extent it has, is because of the NATO Treaty.   The USA was its progenitor, and has been the primary source of funds and material for NATO, and BTW, the UN.  It has been an enormous burden upon the US taxpayer since it's inception back in the late 1940's.  I shudder to think of what the total cash value might be if one cared to do the sums of what the US has contributed to the defense and rebuilding of Europe since 1949.  The total number would be even more astronomical if you figured in the cost of each of those ships, airplanes, tanks, guns, and artillery pieces we've sent to Europe over the past 57 years.  That cost isn't even calculated in the NATO European defense budget because the ships, tanks, and planes still technically belong to the USA.  The numbers you can dig up are solely for the cost of maintaining and managing the huge NATO defense concept.  The secondary reason Europe has such a strong economy is the wide open trade policy America adopted WRT finished goods from European factories.  It's one thing to build a fine automobile, quite another to find someone to buy it.  America provided the marketplace for all those Mercedes and Jaguars, as well as any number of other industries output which would have simply sat on the shelf for lack of a buyer with the money in his pocket to purchase.  So,,, not only have we defended them with NATO, our trade policies of the times made the bulk of their workers payroll, still do to a very large extent for that matter.

If the tax burden of NATO and the UN had been lifted from the American GDP and placed on Europe's fledgling economy, had not the Marshall Plan been in place, had not the vast productivity of the American heartland not been placed at Europe's doorstep, the face of Europe might be very different as we write these silly posts.  Like most Americans, I do not begrudge the freedoms Europeans enjoy now, but I view any effort to belittle the role America played on the world stage in the 20th century as a pure form of anti-Americanism.   I hesitate to use the analogy, but you have to admit, like the well-fed and pampered pet who now turns to bite the hand which feeds it, Europe now views America as a source of irritation, an unlikely and inept player and an unsophisticated intruder in the world of international politics.  They are very sure they know how to do things in a better way.  Just the same as the way Europe handled the Bosnian situation recently, their method was to sit on their hands and do nothing concrete while yet another European madman perpetrated yet another European style ethnic cleansing.  It was American military personel and material which stopped the slaughter of Muslims in Bosnia, and because no good deed goes unpunished, we were repaid by the Islamic world with 9-11-01.

Clyde, you should never let anyone from Europe get under your skin with a 3 line comment here.  We know the truth.

[Daknack]

Hey England is still our Ally.  Wouldnt consider the rest of Europe and ally (and France is a direct enemy to the nation). At the same not being allies doesnt mean they are bad people, just they have gone a different way.  I dont think its totally a bad thing, except I get annoyed when they call themselves allies when they are not allies.

[jb]

Danack,

I was not addressing who our friends are, just the cost of buying that friendship.  You gotta admit, they've been kind of expensive.

[Daknack]

Like buying a high class hooker?

[jb]

LOL, you've hit the nail squarely.

(I can just see Bruno googling furiously for a rebuttal)

[Son of Clyde]

I have made friends with quite a few people from the UK, no problem there. Leslie may be a great guy away from the board.
I played music with a guy from Birmingham.
I went to London and met a friend from the swing dance scene and I went back a year later.
Ste seems to be ok with me even when I referred to football as soccer.
Andrew and I have spoken on the phone and exchanged instant messages.

People of any country can be abrupt, confrontational people on a message board.

Living in Baltimore I see the rich and the poor and the poor sections are no better than what you would find in a third world country. We have slums like all major cities.

It may be a misconception of the younger generation of Eastern Europeans that most Americans have lots of disposable income. What matters is how we manage the income.

[Daknack]

I think most of the people here are decent people and that most would agree with me (as everyone always should anyway  ).  Politics and people dont always mix.  Otherwise I doubt alot of us would be looking to the "evil empire" for a mate.

I would argue though that Americans of almost every income has disposable income.  Thats why you see so many poor people with "bling"... Its why about 60% of people in poverty own a computer (66% of which have internet access at home), TV, VCRs, DVD, Xbox, and all that other non-sense.

[Leslie]

To Clarify my position.

Normally I never post on politics, or subjects unrelated to this board but the American jingoism displayed earlier on this thread annoyed me.  It is not just me, many Europeans on this board are sickened by it.  Normally my advice is simply to ignore it.  It cannot be changed.  Well - I did not take my own advice and the outcome was predictable.  What I said was not rude but a simple matter of fact.  I do not want to start a pissin contest - OK.  In fact I have no wish to discuss this subject further.  That is why I edited my post.

Barney17,

What I said on this thread was not directed at you.  In fact it is a long, long time since I posted any comment on you or your personal situation.  I have better things to do with my time.  You know my opinion of you so I won't repeat myself here.

[jb]

Leslie,

I'm sorry, but I went looking for some "American jingoism" in those posts before yours in this thread and I'm hard pressed to find it.  Was it in another thread?  Help me out here.

From all appearances, your post was just a simple anti-American, a la, AndrewFI, let's bash the gringos for the fun of it free for all.  I don't like to research reasons why Europeans should love me, but your post sort of left me no wiggle room. 

There are tons of reasons why the Euro should be of less value than it is, I merely pointed out the cost of self defense as one possibility, and there are many others.   If, for example, the American buying public stopped buying German automobiles, in the same fashion they stopped buying French wines, Germany's economy would suffer.  France howled when it finally dawned on them that they'd stepped on their own dicks while wearing the old golf shoes.  Trust me, if the American market suddenly dried up for German cars, they'd cry as well. 

I don't think the average European individual fully appreciates the value of the American marketplace when it comes to putting the beans and bacon on the table in his hometown.  Nor does he fully appreicate the value of the American soldier who mans the fence line in defense of the eastern hordes who may someday invade his homeland.  I think it's of interest to learn that nothing is without price.  How much is your freedom worth?  A lot, you say?    Well,,, a lot of it was paid for with American blood.  Please don't forget that.

[Son of Clyde]

deleted


I was ready to post a nasty comment aimed at Leslie but to do so would only confirm the fact that his sole purpose on the board is to insult and hurt people and that he got to me. And I would be no better than him. I think Leslie has gotten to a lot of people on the board including some of my friends.

[PeeWee]

I had often thought that if it were not for Switzerland and all of the foreign cash that flows in and out of those banks that the EU economic base would look worse that it is. Luxembourgh is a financial bright spot But I don't think that me buying a German car mattered one bit. American wine is every bit as good as the French wine. With regard to the French I like two things about that place. The fries and the toast.

Peewee

[BC]

Leslie,

I'm sorry, but I went looking for some "American jingoism" in those posts before yours in this thread and I'm hard pressed to find it.  Was it in another thread?  Help me out here.

From all appearances, your post was just a simple anti-American, a la, AndrewFI, let's bash the gringos for the fun of it free for all.  I don't like to research reasons why Europeans should love me, but your post sort of left me no wiggle room. 

There are tons of reasons why the Euro should be of less value than it is, I merely pointed out the cost of self defense as one possibility, and there are many others.   If, for example, the American buying public stopped buying German automobiles, in the same fashion they stopped buying French wines, Germany's economy would suffer.  France howled when it finally dawned on them that they'd stepped on their own dicks while wearing the old golf shoes.  Trust me, if the American market suddenly dried up for German cars, they'd cry as well. 

I don't think the average European individual fully appreciates the value of the American marketplace when it comes to putting the beans and bacon on the table in his hometown.  Nor does he fully appreicate the value of the American soldier who mans the fence line in defense of the eastern hordes who may someday invade his homeland.  I think it's of interest to learn that nothing is without price.  How much is your freedom worth?  A lot, you say?    Well,,, a lot of it was paid for with American blood.  Please don't forget that.

jb,

Not trying to ruffle your feathers but as far as fiscal policy is concerned I believe it has been decided by th powers that be that the dollar should remain of low value.  I think many experts will agree that the USD is undervalued.  Call it a 'buy American' policy' making that foreign automobile less attractive and keeping interest on the national debt low.  Unfortunately wielding of such powers by others ie China is frowned upon by the US.  In addition these types of policies haven't haven't really improved trade deficits.  There are a lot of factors involved here that like statistics can be viewed from very different angles.

Don't know how authorative this is but at first sight seems a bit alarming. http://mwhodges.home.att.net/nat-debt/debt-nat-a.htm I wonder how EU would compare but would rather sleep now

Regarding defense issues I have found an overwhelming majority of Europeans that are greatful for US intervention during WWII.  Even in Germany.  I am not a historian but from what I have learned, for a good while the US did have a stance towards neutrality.  As I said intervention was quite noble, but to view the sole reason as purely helping friends is taking it a bit too far.  Were there no self-interests involved at all?  Would the US be happy today had we maintained neutrality?  I think not.

Just discourse jb.. not anti- anything. LOL





   

[BillyB]

BC, I agree that the low dollar means a "buy American" policy. But China keeps their money low for a "buy China" policy. Can't get out of that darn trade deficit with them. That website you put up is alarming. It's the type of information that can make a person who lives in one of the most prosperous nations feel like their living in an accident waiting to happen. That's the kind of information that makes Americans hate America and themselves. But guys like me have to remind them they don't have it bad and tell them not to believe everything you read or watch on TV. I know a lot of people don't trust the CIA but the CIA factbook is one of the most complete and detailed source of info pertaining to all nations. You will find similar or the same numbers on nations if you google for other sources but they aren't as complete or as detailed as the factbook.

[DKMM]

I should check this site more often because I missed a response that was apparently aimed at me.  Oh well no worries, looks like I didn't miss much.  Sorry, didn't mean to set off a pissin match, this isn't the place in my opinion.

Cheers.

[Turboguy]

I should check this site more often because I missed a response that was apparently aimed at me.  Oh well no worries, looks like I didn't miss much.  Sorry, didn't mean to set off a pissin match, this isn't the place in my opinion.

Cheers.

Gosh, I learn something new every day.  I had thought today was going to be limited to my new russian word of the day Nakhal.  (Not directed at anyone at all.)


Clyde, you are right.  It is not worth it.  Leslie says we sicken him, lets just send him some tums and maybe once his tummy feels better he will post nicer things.

[BC]

I had often thought that if it were not for Switzerland and all of the foreign cash that flows in and out of those banks that the EU economic base would look worse that it is. Luxembourgh is a financial bright spot But I don't think that me buying a German car mattered one bit. American wine is every bit as good as the French wine. With regard to the French I like two things about that place. The fries and the toast.

Peewee

PeeWee,

Switzerland is not part of EU

[PeeWee]

PeeWee,

Switzerland is not part of EU

What I should have said is Europe, not EU. Switzerland has the highest per capita GDP in Europe according to the last study that I have read.

Peewee

[Bruno]

(I can just see Bruno googling furiously for a rebuttal)

Why JB, i agree with you on almost all... it is the US help after the WWII who have help to build the Europe of today... for this, i thank all the father of the actual American... But accepting your help don't make us your slave... It is not because your father's have make a great think that we need agree with you...

And seriously, what is the reason of these NATO base in Europa... Before, it was used to be base against Russia... These treat have dissappear... Belgium host the command center from the NATO and it is the only place that the actual threat ( Muslim extremist ) are wishing attack in Belgium...

When you wrote :

Just the same as the way Europe handled the Bosnian situation recently, their method was to sit on their hands and do nothing concrete while yet another European madman perpetrated yet another European style ethnic cleansing.  It was American military personel and material which stopped the slaughter of Muslims in Bosnia

I have participate in the two war in ex-Yougoslavia... During the first war, European have try to make a blocus and stop import of weapon... But American have make "business" with Serbian, sell weapons... This have allow the second war in ex-Yougoslavia who have lead to a almost genocide...

Yes, i disagree with some ( not all ) of the actual action of USA... I respect what have make the USA in the past... These respect was earned by the positive action of USA... The modern USA have loose some respect due to her actual action... The good of the past don't excuse the bad from now !

[PeeWee]

Why JB, i agree with you on almost all... it is the US help after the WWII who have help to build the Europe of today... for this, i thank all the father of the actual American... But accepting your help don't make us your slave... It is not because your father's have make a great think that we need agree with you...

And seriously, what is the reason of these NATO base in Europa... Before, it was used to be base against Russia... These treat have dissappear... Belgium host the command center from the NATO and it is the only place that the actual threat ( Muslim extremist ) are wishing attack in Belgium...

When you wrote :

 


I have participate in the two war in ex-Yougoslavia... During the first war, European have try to make a blocus and stop import of weapon... But American have make "business" with Serbian, sell weapons... This have allow the second war in ex-Yougoslavia who have lead to a almost genocide...

Yes, i disagree with some ( not all ) of the actual action of USA... I respect what have make the USA in the past... These respect was earned by the positive action of USA... The modern USA have loose some respect due to her actual action... The good of the past don't excuse the bad from now !

The US military and influence is so far reaching and complex. Some of what we do seems so necessary while the rest seems so unnecessary. Our foray into Georgia, much to the displeasure of some in the Kremlin, was critical in the closing the Georgian boards to rebel arms traffic. No one hears about that stuff. A friend of mine, Army Special Forces, left for a 30 tour in Indonesia about a year ago. Ask him what we were doing there and the reply is, "I don't know." Something we never heard about but I am sure whatever it was it was mighty damn critical.

Peewee