Lenins toppled and proposed law banning Soviet symbols

[lordtiberius]

Nope. We're not going to reject our past, we respect our past. Who forgets the past that will pay for dearly  in future.

You are a nation of thieves.  It is not just me saying this, it is the decided universal opinion of all honest and educated people.  You being proud of your past is like a rapist talking about his conquests . . . 

[fathertime]

You are a nation of thieves.  It is not just me saying this, it is the decided universal opinion of all honest and educated people. 

pure stupidity.


Fathertime! 

[lordtiberius]

pure stupidity.


Fathertime!

Why do you say that?

[cc3]

Lviv de-sovietized a long time ago...makes for a very pleasant, livable town with very few reminders of an enslaved past.

[Muzh]

Nope. We're not going to reject our past, we respect our past. Who forgets the past that will pay for dearly  in future.

Absolutely Mein Herr.

[Boethius]

I suppose the second step must be the return of Western Ukraine to Poland. Annexation of part of Poland in 1939 was one of the crimes committed by Stalin. If you reject the Soviet past you have to return the gifts obtained under Soviet rule.
Ukraine has given back Crimea as the process of rejecting brutal and miserable past, so you're moving in right direction I suppose.
Or you intend in battle with past to restrict youself to  only demolition of monuments?
 

Gifts such as the murder of 200,000 Western Ukrainians?  The deportation to gulags of 1.2 million more?  The tens of thousands of bodies still being found in unmarked NKVD graves littering the countryside?  The rule from Moscow right to the end of the USSR?  The importation of ethnic Russian nomenklatura to Russify and "de Ukrainize" the region?  Why do you think the anti Russian feeling was so strong, on the collapse, in this region? 




If Western Ukrainians wish to express their self determination to become an independent region, or to join Poland, I have no objection.  If they want to remain part of today's Ukraine, that is their right as well.

[Larry1]

Ukraine has given back Crimea as the process of rejecting brutal and miserable past, so you're moving in right direction I suppose.

I wouldn't characterize Russia's invasion and annexation of Crimea as Ukraine giving the place to Russia. It's more akin to an armed robber coming in to rob a store's cash register.

[Boethius]

Nope. We're not going to reject our past, we respect our past. Who forgets the past that will pay for dearly  in future.

That is rather ironic, given the number of churches, historical buildings, and culture (of all the captive nations, including Russia) that the Soviets managed to destroy in their desire to build "a new man, free from the constraints of the past".


Those who do not remember the past are condemned to repeat it - George Santayana.


This does not mean veneration.  If Ukrainians open museums to the Holodomor, remember policies of Russification, remember how families were deliberately ripped apart, remember how the party placed the party above all else, and that only the working class had a place in their society, they will not be doomed to repeat that past.


Unfortunately, currently, Ukraine (and Russia) are failing, because the old masters are the new masters.

[AC]

If you reject the Soviet past you have to return the gifts obtained under Soviet rule.
Ukraine has given back Crimea as the process of rejecting brutal and miserable past, so you're moving in right direction I suppose.

According to the treaty between Catherine the Great and Turkey (formerly the Ottoman Empire) Crimea should now belong again to Turkey.

Keep playing the games you are playing and pretty soon China and Mongolia will be taking large swaths of Russian land as well Kaliningrad will be returned to Germany.

[Muzh]

According to the treaty between Catherine the Great and Turkey (formerly the Ottoman Empire) Crimea should now belong again to Turkey.

Keep playing the games you are playing and pretty soon China and Mongolia will be taking large swaths of Russian land as well Kaliningrad will be returned to Germany.

Rephrase that please, Mr. "I get my information from talk show radio" Ant.


Turkey did NOT exist during Catherine "Your Horse or Mine?" the great.

[lordtiberius]

Smh

[AC]

Rephrase that please, Mr. "I get my information from talk show radio".


Turkey did NOT exist during Catherine "Your Horse or Mine?" the great.

Which is why I wrote formerly the Ottoman Empire, m*&^%.  Get some reading glasses.

And then try Google.  You might actually learn something, instead of constantly trolling.

http://maidantranslations.com/2014/03/17/turkey-under-ottoman-empire-treaty-with-catherine-the-great-if-crimea-declares-independence-it-returns-to-turkey/comment-page-1/

[Boethius]

One won't learn much from that Euromaidan translation.  The Treaty of Kucuk Kaynarca was signed in 1774.  That treaty formalized Crimea's independence, and was followed by several other treaties between the Russian Empire and the Ottoman Empire.  Under the treaties, the Ottoman Empire agreed not to interfere in the newly independent Crimea's politics. However, Catherine II invaded in 1783 and annexed Crimea, claiming the Ottoman Empire had violated the treaties by interfering in Crimean politics.  This act would pretty much nullify previous treaties.

[lordtiberius]

pure stupidity.


Fathertime!

Still awaiting on you to substantiate your drive by insult. L o l

[fathertime]

Still awaiting on you to substantiate your drive by insult. L o l

Your words stand as your own accusers. 


Fathertime!   

[lordtiberius]

That's great.  I don't disagree with you.  I don't object to your name calling either.  I am asking you to back up your argument with facts.  I said that Russia is the cheif opponent to world peace.  You said that was sheer stupidity.  Why?

[fathertime]

That's great.  I don't disagree with you.  I don't object to your name calling either.  I am asking you to back up your argument with facts.  I said that Russia is the cheif opponent to world peace.  You said that was sheer stupidity.  Why?

I didn't call you a name..I mentioned your initial post was stupidity which it is.  What you are saying on this post is different than what you said in the post I described as stupidity.   

I don't feel like getting involved in a discussion about it with you.  I've already seen where that goes.

Fathertime!

[lordtiberius]

That's fine.

[AC]

One won't learn much from that Euromaidan translation.  The Treaty of Kucuk Kaynarca was signed in 1774.  That treaty formalized Crimea's independence, and was followed by several other treaties between the Russian Empire and the Ottoman Empire.  Under the treaties, the Ottoman Empire agreed not to interfere in the newly independent Crimea's politics. However, Catherine II invaded in 1783 and annexed Crimea, claiming the Ottoman Empire had violated the treaties by interfering in Crimean politics.  This act would pretty much nullify previous treaties.

 In your opinion.

[Boethius]

No, in the opinion of international courts that interpret treaties.

[AC]

I am suggesting that modern day Turkey has a different interpretation and opinion about who should own Crimea, however they are not in a position as of right now to do much about it.  They are busy playing both Russia and the EU.  Who knows what the future holds, should the Russian economy have a total collapse if Putin pushes forward with his plan to take Mariupol and get his land bridge to Crimea.  WA DC and the EU would respond with Swift.  Perhaps Poland will arm Ukraine.  Perhaps others.  It might be decades until Russia loses Crimea again.  At that point international opinion about who is the rightful owner may change in favor of Turkey.

Russia has opened a Pandora's box by re-writing international borders, and eventually it will be to their detriment.

[Boethius]

They are busy playing both Russia and the EU. 

I agree with that.  It is in their national interests.  They aren't upholding their NATO obligations but, they do share a neighbourhood with Russia.

[BdHvA]

. . . I'm waiting for Russia to give back Koenigsberg.

So who gets Königsberg? Give it back to Prussia?  Perhaps Poland, maybe Germany, why not Lithuania? 

[Larry1]

The original post in this thread discussed the proposed law banning Soviet symbols and doing certain other things.  That law has apparently now gone into effect:

The first law “on the condemnation of the communist and Nazi totalitarian regimes” forbids both Soviet and Nazi symbols, making something as trivial as selling a USSR souvenir, or singing the Soviet national hymn or the Internationale, punishable by up to five years in prison for an individual and up to 10 years in prison for members of an organisation.

It also makes it a criminal offence to deny the “criminal character of the communist totalitarian regime of 1917-1991 in Ukraine” in the media or elsewhere.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/may/21/ukraine-bans-soviet-symbols-criminalises-sympathy-for-communism

[JohnDearGreen]

The original post in this thread discussed the proposed law banning Soviet symbols and ...

Not to worry.  Plenty of good chainsaw carvings to take their place.
http://www.unian.ua/multimedia/photo/12592-ukrainskiy-skulptor-vyiigral-chempionat-mira-po-rezbe-benzopiloy.html#ad-image-3