US HOUSE ADMITS NAZI ROLE IN UKRAINE

[jone]

Sorry it wasn't 50 or 100...you said 300....then you changed your mind and said 500.....all along the support was much greater than the numbers you were providing...obviously. 
The point being, Ludmila may not have an inside tract, but neither do you.

Thank you for your apology.   At least you are man enough to admit that he is wrong when he misquoted someone.  Note that  I did not say Pro-Russian either.  I will accept your blanket apology for both.

I have always believed that there are many pro-Russian people in Ukraine.  But in a state of Rebellion?  At that time?  I'll stand by what I said.  Vice News was going up and down the streets of Donetsk and asking people what they thought.  Invariably the answer was that they didn't want conflict.   

You, of course, are trying to get at me any way you can.  But put the quotes and the situation in context.  Aside from the few people occupying those buildings, no DNR had ever existed.

Shortly before this situation unfolded, you were making predictions that Putin had gotten what he wanted in Krim and would walk away with his prize.  Your win-win philosophy.   The difference is that my thoughts were pretty much spot on for that time period.  But your Win-Win supposition has had you the laughingstock of the forum.  Only someone like Neville Chamberlain would come up with such a crazy appeasement. 

[Ludmila]

Please copy the below and paste it into google images
зверства нацистов на Украине 
 

[Ludmila]

Nice avoidance and use of double standards. You brought up the Nazi's from over 60 years ago as being active in Ukraine.

The evil of the Soviet Union and Stalinism was far longer and closer to today.

Hello-o, we're discussing the role of Nazi in THE CURRENT SITUATION in the Ukraine. Want to discuss what was 60 years ago-- welcome. Open a new topic, please. Anything on the subject of THIS TOPIC PLEASE?   

[jone]

Ludmilla,

You are intentionally misreading the situation.  You claim to have first hand knowledge of war crimes committed by the Azov Battalion?  And that this Battalion is really what is running Ukraine?  That the government has no control over its own people? 

Hey, the last time I was there, the government was very much in control and nothing has led me to believe it is not.

I think you are also trying to use the vote by the US House not to arm Azov as the admission that the US now recognizes that Ukraine is run by Nazis.  It wasn't.  I would have voted the same way.  It was a responsible vote excluding the fringe element of Ukraine from having direct support from the US government.  It also paved the way for future support of Ukraine through Military Supply.  You certainly know that the House and the Senate have authorized the President to supply whatever weapons he sees fit to deliver to Ukraine.

[Ludmila]

Yet, on June 10, the U.S. House of Representatives approved a bipartisan amendment to the Defense Appropriations Act – from Reps. John Conyers Jr., D-Michigan, and Ted Yoho, R-Florida – that would block U.S. training of the Azov battalion and would prevent transfer of shoulder-fired anti-aircraft missiles to fighters in Iraq and Ukraine.
“I am grateful that the House of Representatives unanimously passed my amendments last night to ensure that our military does not train members of the repulsive neo-Nazi Azov Battalion, along with my measures to keep the dangerous and easily trafficked MANPADs out of these unstable regions,” said Conyers on Thursday.
He described Ukraine’s Azov Battalion as a 1,000-man volunteer militia of the Ukrainian National Guard that Foreign Policy Magazine has characterized as “openly neo-Nazi” and “fascist.” And Azov is not some obscure force. Ukraine’s Interior Minister Arsen Avakov, who oversees Ukraine’s armed militias, announced that Azov troops would be among the first units to be trained by the 300 U.S. military advisers who have been dispatched to Ukraine in a training mission codenamed “Fearless Guardian.”

[fathertime]

Shortly before this situation unfolded, you were making predictions that Putin had gotten what he wanted in Krim and would walk away with his prize.  Your win-win philosophy.   The difference is that my thoughts were pretty much spot on for that time period. 

Haha, no they were NOT spot on...your thoughts were off by a mile.   In addition, thoughts that were thought to be right at the time, but are discovered to be wrong at a later date...are just flat wrong....for example your insistence of a complete Russian invasion/occupation of essentially all of Ukraine, which I argued wasn't going to happen...      If you feel it is important to try to pick on Ludmila (in your first post), for posting her viewpoint, rather than just making counterpoints, then there is no reason why yours shouldn't continue to be wrung out too.   


Fathertime! 

[Ludmila]

Ludmilla,


Hey, the last time I was there, the government was very much in control and nothing has led me to believe it is not.

  You certainly know that the House and the Senate have authorized the President to supply whatever weapons he sees fit to deliver to Ukraine.

Last time you were there you got an impression and formed an opinion. That was only your opinion ( to which you're entitled). The House, however,  decided differently ( at last).
To supply what he sees fit? No more.' Cause there is a smell of roast in the air. Especially in the light of the coming elections.

[jone]

I have no problem with Ludmilla making her points.   I hope she does.  I am waiting to see her evidence of war crimes committed by Azov.  It is the keystone to her argument that the Kyiv government allows an extremist organization control of the government, or how I read her. 

As for a Russian invasion that overcame all of Ukraine?  While I don't recall those words exactly, it is something I could have mused about.    Please point me, again, to the quotes you are quoting.  It seems you are obsessing over my posting, I would expect you to have them posted all over your den at home.

Now you have again tried to misquote me.  I said that there were probably only 500 people ACTUALLY in rebellion.  Anyone trying to understand what I said would have inferred that those were the only people actually committing rebellion against the Kyiv government.    Go back to April 12th, 2014.  Before all of the handpicked GRU were running the DNR.  I would stand by those statements then and now.

I hate to tell you this, FT, but the entire world, aside from Russia agrees that Russia is in Ukraine with its troops.  They are waging war on Ukraine, plain and simple.  Are you in so much denial that you don't believe it? 

Probably believed that the Holocaust never happened as well.  Oh, and that Israel exists because of a back room deal. 

FYI, Israel exists because of a year long war which saw the Israeli Army overcoming odds of over 10/1 against them.  It had nothing to do of a contrived back room deal as you alluded to.

[jone]

Last time you were there you got an impression and formed an opinion. That was only your opinion ( to which you're entitled). The House, however,  decided differently ( at last).
To supply what he sees fit? No more.' Cause there is a smell of roast in the air. Especially in the light of the coming elections.

Please elaborate on why you feel that Kyiv is run by Nazis.  I can't see your point.  It eludes me.  Now, I can't say that everyone else is seeing what I don't.  I am just interested in understanding where you are coming from.

You ought to check the foreign policy positions of the Presidential candidates.  Most of them are much more strident about arming Ukraine than is Obama.  Currently, Obama feels that the penalty through sanctions is keeping the Kremlin from launching further incursions.  I would speculate that there is already a strategy in place if Russia continues to try and take territory from Eastern Ukraine.

I actually talk to my congressional office about Russia and Ukraine.  We discussed this vote.  I cannot say how the other 434 House members felt, but my description of this vote as being one that was intended to help the Ukraine government is pretty much how my Congressman felt.

[southernX]

ludmila , your grasp on this is clearly devoid of any critical thinking

you know or should know the point was made on why non gov militia such as the azov battalion where mentioned in the us congress , so why contuine to post such nonsense as you are ?

jone i agree while many in the east where not for joining the EU , or NATO , and saw their future in the same vain as the past with a close connection to russia , so could be called ''pro russian '' that certainly does not mean they wanted to join russia or leave ukraine ,no published legaly held referendum supports the breakaway idea of the DPR or LPR 
neville would know this if he had spent any time on the ground there , as this conflict continues ukrainians as a whole are consolidating away from russia ,

SX

[fathertime]

I hate to tell you this, FT, but the entire world, aside from Russia agrees that Russia is in Ukraine with its troops.  They are waging war on Ukraine, plain and simple.  Are you in so much denial that you don't believe it? 

That is silliness that as usual you misrepresent another persons position....I recognize that it is highly likely Russia has Troops in Ukraine (always have held that position)....the many reasons why is where the issue lies. 

Probably believed that the Holocaust never happened as well.   

Very very stupid to bring up the Holocaust, and further attempt to state my position so ridiculously. 

 Oh, and that Israel exists because of a back room deal. 

FYI, Israel exists because of a year long war which saw the Israeli Army overcoming odds of over 10/1 against them.  It had nothing to do of a contrived back room deal as you alluded to.

As usual YOU are not entirely correct...yes Israel overcame odds as the enemies outnumbered them probably 10-1 like you said, if not more...BUT there were also backroom deals that enabled the Zionists to reach that point and set the stage for this to happen.  It is certainly questionable why a small minority were able to push out the majority and settle on what was once their land.


Fathertime!   

[JayH]

1/ludmila , your grasp on this is clearly devoid of any critical thinking

2/you know or should know the point was made on why non gov militia such as the azov battalion where mentioned in the us congress , so why contuine to post such nonsense as you are ?

3/jone i agree while many in the east where not for joining the EU , or NATO , and saw their future in the same vain as the past with a close connection to russia , so could be called ''pro russian '' that certainly does not mean they wanted to join russia or leave ukraine ,no published legaly held referendum supports the breakaway idea of the DPR or LPR 
4/neville would know this if he had spent any time on the ground there , as this conflict continues ukrainians as a whole are consolidating away from russia ,

SX

1/  That is an understatement !

2/  Not sure if some of these people actually read what others say--or is a substantial thread diversion needed on each incorrect point to advise the obtuse?

3/  There never was any large scale support for Russia( the polls before and after prove it)-- a tiny minority should not be able to dictate on larger issues regardless. Fact is that it is only the Russian promotion and interference that has created the situation.Everytime a basic falsehood gets repeated it only serves to cloud the bigger picture issues.

4/ The idea of a free ,democratic,self determination of Ukraine by Ukrainians went from a a maybe dream to a fundamental plank of a large number of Ukrainians thinking  in the months after Maidan last year. Despite reports that it was a western Ukraine concept-it is in fact widespread all over Ukraine.

The Russian attempt to destabilise Ukraine has failed-there was no popular support for the Russian placed provocateurs - hence the Russian invasion in the east to support the Russian paid thugs and mercenaries.
It is very clear who the Nazis in Ukraine are-- Russian Nazis,Russian Military,Russian thugs,Russian mercenaries.

Instead of the stupidity of outdated allegations that have long ago been disproven being trotted out again and again by the likes of Ludmila and followed up by the lapdog F Turd.

[Darth_Budda]

Are the Children In East Ukraine Really all Russian Terrorists?

The Women and Children Killed by Ballistic Missiles and Shelling form Government troops?

Do they Not have Value?


Family suffered from the punishers shelling. Gorlovka. DNR. Episode 475

[Faux Pas]

FT I am beginning to see you as the board Master Baiter but, just for shitz and giggles I'll bite.

That is silliness that as usual you misrepresent another persons position....I recognize that it is highly likely Russia has Troops in Ukraine (always have held that position)....the many reasons why is where the issue lies.

There is no issue, it doesn't matter and it is completely immaterial. Russia has invaded it's sovereign neighbor unprovoked. The "many reasons" as you state do not quantify the deaths of tens of 1000's of innocents. The fact that you attempt to justify that for mere forum fodder speaks volumes of you.

Very very stupid to bring up the Holocaust, and further attempt to state my position so ridiculously. 





As usual YOU are not entirely correct...yes Israel overcame odds as the enemies outnumbered them probably 10-1 like you said, if not more...BUT there were also backroom deals that enabled the Zionists to reach that point and set the stage for this to happen. It is certainly questionable why a small minority were able to push out the majority and settle on what was once their land.


Fathertime!

You really should read up on your Israeli history pre 1949 so as to not look completely foolish. I'm going to give you a few lessons. There were no Palestinians. You should read up and find out where they came from. Jews were settling back in Israel long before WWII. The territory now known as Israel in the late 18th century was a barren land owned and sold to Jewish settlers by Arab land owners.

Your welcome

[fathertime]

There is no issue, it doesn't matter and it is completely immaterial. Russia has invaded it's sovereign neighbor unprovoked. The "many reasons" as you state do not quantify the deaths of tens of 1000's of innocents. The fact that you attempt to justify that for mere forum fodder speaks volumes of you.

Obviously it doesn't matter what YOU think is immaterial.  The Russians don't agree and are taking actions, while you act like you know something. 

You really should read up on your Israeli history pre 1949 so as to not look completely foolish. I'm going to give you a few lessons. There were no Palestinians. You should read up and find out where they came from. Jews were settling back in Israel long before WWII. The territory now known as Israel in the late 18th century was a barren land owned and sold to Jewish settlers by Arab land owners.
 

Your warped version of history is laughable, and based entirely on your own prejudices  Those 100's of 1000's of people that just happened to be living there at the time didn't exist....a-hem....  So far your history lesson is worthless....I think you even got your centuries confused. 


Fathertime!   

[Faux Pas]

Obviously it doesn't matter what YOU think is immaterial.  The Russians don't agree and are taking actions, while you act like you know something. 

Certainly, innocents are dying from the firepower of Russia in Ukraine and you and Russia are "okay" with that. Good luck explaining that one to your maker

Your warped version of history is laughable, and based entirely on your own prejudices  Those 100's of 1000's of people that just happened to be living there at the time didn't exist....a-hem....  So far your history lesson is worthless....I think you even got your centuries confused. 


Fathertime!

Where did I state people didn't live there? Do you know who the large majority of those people were? Of course you don't. I would say "nice try at the strawman but, it isn't. Warped, really? Read up Queenie before you embarrass yourself any further. Or doesn't any of this pop up on your CNN and Yahoo websites? I tried to help you earlier now, I'm just going to poke fun at your blatant ignorance

[fathertime]

Certainly, innocents are dying from the firepower of Russia in Ukraine and you and Russia are "okay" with that. Good luck explaining that one to your maker
 

Good luck explaining all the wars YOU have been delighted about...killing 100's of 1000's of people you don't like.  I don't worry about explaining anything to 'my maker'  YOU can worry about that if you like. 

Where did I state people didn't live there? Do you know who the large majority of those people were? Of course you don't. I would say "nice try at the strawman but, it isn't. Warped, really? Read up Queenie before you embarrass yourself any further. Or doesn't any of this pop up on your CNN and Yahoo websites? I tried to help you earlier now, I'm just going to poke fun at your blatant ignorance

Go ahead 'Poke fun'...that is what I'm going to be doing with you....Remember when you thought the Chinese currency was the 'Yen'....you have been whining all over the website about how the 'yen' is going to take over and the dollar is dead..when actually that is the Japanese currency...talk about ignorance...and your life philosophy is based on that.     




In this conversation the situation is the same....you actually don't KNOW squat, even got something as basic as the centuries screwed up in your original post...You are just being bigoted against the Muslims, as usual...The majority of people living in the area at the time got the shaft because they were poor and disorganized...and were taken advantage of by the minority which was better organized and better funded...that is often the way of the world...but there is no moral high ground.   

[jone]

Are the Children In East Ukraine Really all Russian Terrorists?

The Women and Children Killed by Ballistic Missiles and Shelling form Government troops?

Do they Not have Value?


Family suffered from the punishers shelling. Gorlovka. DNR. Episode 475

Yes.  They have tremendous value.  As much value as you or me.  (In my case, they probably have more.)   What would you suggest that the Ukrainian army does with the territory?   Allow it to be taken without a fight?  One of the most painful choices an army has to make is how to defend its homeland.

[jone]

In this conversation the situation is the same....you actually don't KNOW squat, even got something as basic as the centuries screwed up in your original post...You are just being bigoted against the Muslims, as usual...The majority of people living in the area at the time got the shaft because they were poor and disorganized...and were taken advantage of by the minority which was better organized and better funded...that is often the way of the world...but there is no moral high ground.   

At the time of the War that Created the State of Israel, there were approximately 600,000 Jews living in the British Mandate Protectorate, which we call Palestine.  Approximately 200,000 had come to the area after the war.  But the previous occupants were all land owners, farmers and tradesmen.

What FP was alluding to was the way that these people came to be there.  They pooled their resources and bought the land from the remnants of the Ottoman Empire.  The Arabs sold worthless land to the Jews who came in and dug wells and raised crops.    Any good Israeli child can tell you the story of the Hula Valley and the reclamation of land.

For generations it was a joke among the Arabs about all the money they were making selling worthless land to the argumentative Jews.    This had nothing to do with 'back room deals' at the time of the war which created Israel.  It had everything to do with the greed and failure of the Ottoman Empire.

Simply put, there was no State of Palestine at the end of the British Mandate.  The Jews that were living in the country were there because they had bought land generations previously.  Those refugees who came on ships at the end of WWII were processed and put immediately to work on the collective farms and lived a hard and spartan existence.  These collective farms were called kibbutzim (plural for kibbutz).

As for the majority in the area?  It was a majority only in the areas controlled by the Arabs at the start of the war.  And what is really funny is rather than incorporate these Arab people into the State of Israel, they were all removed by the governments of the Arab States to create a huge refugee facility to use as a future bargaining chip.

Fathertime, your arrogance on this board is becoming legendary.  It is only exceeded by your ignorance on topics you muse about by reading Wikipedia and then act like you actually have knowledge.

[mhr7]

Are the Children In East Ukraine Really all Russian Terrorists?

The Women and Children Killed by Ballistic Missiles and Shelling form Government troops?

Do they Not have Value?

Can you say, "Human Shields"?

[Faux Pas]

Good luck explaining all the wars YOU have been delighted about...killing 100's of 1000's of people you don't like.  I don't worry about explaining anything to 'my maker'  YOU can worry about that if you like. 

Please, name just one war or one death I have been delighted about. Take your time 

Go ahead 'Poke fun'...that is what I'm going to be doing with you....Remember when you thought the Chinese currency was the 'Yen'....you have been whining all over the website about how the 'yen' is going to take over and the dollar is dead..when actually that is the Japanese currency...talk about ignorance...and your life philosophy is based on that.     




In this conversation the situation is the same....you actually don't KNOW squat, even got something as basic as the centuries screwed up in your original post...You are just being bigoted against the Muslims, as usual...The majority of people living in the area at the time got the shaft because they were poor and disorganized...and were taken advantage of by the minority which was better organized and better funded...that is often the way of the world...but there is no moral high ground.   

That's effing hilarious! So your obvious attempts at strawman FAIL, so you resort to making shit up? Is this yet another attempt to divert from your astoundingly blatant ignorance? I one time called the Chinese currency Yen (never mind that I stood correct and apologized for my error), please tell us Queenie how this equates to me whining all over the website that the Yen is going to take over the dollar? I'm busting a gut here Queenie, surely you can find a quote for that? TFF 

Bigoted against Muslims? More attempt to deflect from your gross ignorance on the subject of Israel? You are the definition of a sheeple Queenie. You are a denier, a sheeple and denying out of sheer ignorance. Please, you are making this thrashing of you way easier than it needs to be. Read up on the history without the help of Yahoo and CNN?

[sleepycat]

Fathertime, your arrogance on this board is becoming legendary.  It is only exceeded by your ignorance on topics you muse about by reading Wikipedia and then act like you actually have knowledge.

Ouch!
 

[fathertime]

What FP was alluding to was the way that these people came to be there.   

NO...you don't KNOW what he was alluding to...he was likely ignorant and you are simply speaking FOR him now. 


 

    This had nothing to do with 'back room deals' at the time of the war which created Israel.

 

BS...although I do see that you qualified this statement....No backroom deals huh.... explain this then:



Proponents of the Plan reportedly put pressure on nations to vote yes to the Partition Plan. A telegram signed by 26 US senators with influence on foreign aid bills was sent to wavering countries, seeking their support for the partition plan.[61] Many nations reported pressure directed specifically at them:

United States (Vote: For): President Truman later noted, "The facts were that not only were there pressure movements around the United Nations unlike anything that had been seen there before, but that the White House, too, was subjected to a constant barrage. I do not think I ever had as much pressure and propaganda aimed at the White House as I had in this instance. The persistence of a few of the extreme Zionist leaders—actuated by political motives and engaging in political threats—disturbed and annoyed me."[62]


India (Vote: Against): Indian Prime Minister Jawaharlal Nehru spoke with anger and contempt for the way the UN vote had been lined up. He said the Zionists had tried to bribe India with millions and at the same time his sister, Vijaya Lakshmi Pandit, had received daily warnings that her life was in danger unless "she voted right".[63] Vijaya Lakshmi Pandit, Nehru’s sister, the Indian ambassador to the U.N, occasionally hinted that something might change in favour of the Yishuv. But another Indian delegate said that India would vote for the Arab side, because of their large Moslem minority, although they know that the Jews has a case.[64]


Liberia (Vote: For): Liberia's Ambassador to the United States complained that the US delegation threatened aid cuts to several countries.[65] Harvey S. Firestone, Jr., President of Firestone Natural Rubber Company, with major holdings in the country, also pressured the Liberian government[57][61]


Philippines (Vote: For): In the days before the vote, the Philippines' representative General Carlos P. Romulo stated "We hold that the issue is primarily moral. The issue is whether the United Nations should accept responsibility for the enforcement of a policy which is clearly repugnant to the valid nationalist aspirations of the people of Palestine. The Philippines Government holds that the United Nations ought not to accept such responsibility". After a phone call from Washington, the representative was recalled and the Philippines' vote changed.[61]


Haiti (Vote: For): The promise of a five million dollar loan may or may not have secured Haiti's vote for partition.[66]


France (Vote: For): Shortly before the vote, France's delegate to the United Nations was visited by Bernard Baruch, a long-term Jewish supporter of the Democratic Party who, during the recent world war, had been an economic adviser to President Roosevelt, and had latterly been appointed by President Truman as the United States' ambassador to the newly created UN Atomic Energy Commission. He was, privately, a supporter of the Irgun and its front organization, the American League for a Free Palestine. Baruch implied that a French failure to support the resolution might cause planned American aid to France, which was badly needed for reconstruction, French currency reserves being exhausted and its balance of payments heavily in deficit, not to materialise. Previously, in order to avoid antagonising its Arab colonies, France had not publicly supported the resolution. After considering the danger of American aid being withheld, France finally voted in favour of it. So, too, did France's neighbours, Belgium, Luxembourg and the Netherlands.[56]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Partition_Plan_for_Palestine


Fathertime!   

[jone]

You still don't get it. 

 

That resolution had nothing to do with the creation of Israel.  Israel is there because the IDF went out and fought all of the Arab nations for land.  Who cares what was said in the UN?  You've admitted that you knew that the Jews were terribly outnumbered.  They were given little chance to succeed.  That is why the British gave their equipment to the Arabs.  The real discussion in the United Nations at this time was what the countries were going to do with all of the displaced Jews who survived the butchery that the Arabs were going to lay down in Palestine.

Throughout the years, that UN resolution was used to limit Israel's legitimacy rather than enhance it.

[fathertime]

That's effing hilarious! So your obvious attempts at strawman FAIL, so you resort to making shit up? Is this yet another attempt to divert from your astoundingly blatant ignorance? I one time called the Chinese currency Yen (never mind that I stood correct and apologized for my error), please tell us Queenie how this equates to me whining all over the website that the Yen is going to take over the dollar? I'm busting a gut 

Your apology was forced, and irreverent...that fact remained that you were basing your life philosophy on ignorance...

Bigoted against Muslims? More attempt to deflect from your gross ignorance on the subject of Israel? You are the definition of a sheeple Queenie. You are a denier, a sheeple and denying out of sheer ignorance. Please, you are making this thrashing of you way easier than it needs to be. Read up on the history without the help of Yahoo and CNN?

Yes...Bigoted against Muslims, very obvious....   I don't claim gross ignorance on Israel...nor do I claim all encompassing knowledge, although over the past day I've done more reading on the subject...and I sure as heckfire know YOU don't have superior knowledge on the subject, although you may continue to pretend you do.   


Here is a mini...Short Crash course for people who have an interest....it appears unbiased and doesn't suck up to either side.

Bigoted against Muslims? More attempt to deflect from your gross ignorance on the subject of Israel? You are the definition of a sheeple Queenie. You are a denier, a sheeple and denying out of sheer ignorance. Please, you are making this thrashing of you way easier than it needs to be. Read up on the history without the help of Yahoo and CNN?

Ohhhh look...a guy dreaming of 'thrashing' another guy....keep dreaming pal...I feel fine!   


Fathertime!