Ukrainian mother assaulted on Florida beach while protecting her 2-year old

[Miquel Westano]

You just don't like people debating you, especially women. 

Could you get any more desperate?  All I did was reprint her exact words.  But you drug it on down to the lowest possible level.  At least Bo tries to make some point.  Maybe you have some more pictures of people crying to post, or a story about mean old men who kick puppies? 

[LiveFromUkraine]

Did someone ask for dog pictures?

[Boethius]

You are so phony.  This is exactly what you said:

Please point out where I suggested the woman deserved to be assaulted. 

Yes, I posted I have no sympathy for her.  I do have empathy, even if she is from nomenklatura.  Nowhere did I post she deserved to be subjected to a loud boom box in her face, let alone be assaulted.

I don't expect you will understand the difference.

[Boethius]

I don't believe that there is enough information.

We don't know what tone she used, how he was dressed, etc. 

If she is visiting from Ukraine she may have not had much experience with dealing with thug types; who knows?

Given that the guy was violating his parole and still caused a ruckus that led to the police being called, it is reasonable that he is very impulsive; possibly he was acting normal for the first few minutes of interaction, then when nuts after that.

If she is from Ukraine, and is from an average Ukrainian family, she will have dealt with thug types who would have said much worse than that guy did under the same circumstances.  The fact she asked him to turn down his music, rather than move, even if polite, suggests an entitlement attitude/imperiousness I have witnessed time and again among certain layers of FSU society.  It would not be how an "average" UW would behave.

The violation of parole, as I understand, was for intoxication.

[Larry1]

The violation of parole, as I understand, was for intoxication.

The article didn't say what his parole violation was, but I checked the arrest affidavit and see that it was the assault of the UW on the beach.

... violate the conditions of (his) felony probation as set forth under court case number... for a period of (36 months) to wit: On this date defendant was arrested for felony battery therefore violating his probation

http://thesmokinggun.com/file/florida-hospitality?page=1

I did a quick check and it appears that, if convicted of felony battery, he could be sentenced for up to five years, possibly more because he is a repeat offender. I don't have any idea how long of a sentence is the typical range for this offense there.

Some years ago criminal thugs in Florida targeted foreign tourists, in part because they were unlikely to return to Florida to testify against them in court. I'm not suggesting that is the case here.

[alex330]

The violation of parole, as I understand, was for intoxication.

Any contact with LEO or an arrest in Florida is grounds for violation of parole.

The article didn't say what his parole violation was, but I checked the arrest affidavit and see that it was the assault of the UW on the beach.

http://thesmokinggun.com/file/florida-hospitality?page=1

I did a quick check and it appears that, if convicted of felony battery, he could be sentenced for up to five years. I don't have any idea how long of a sentence is the typical range for this offense there.

Violation of parole in Florida is mandatory no bond. If you look at his case with Pinellas county you will see that they did set a bond for him eventually at $2,000 and he got out. He has since disappeared and they have not been able to find him as you can see by his case updates. So he is roaming the streets right now.



07/22/2015           NO INFORMATION FILED
06/04/2015           NOTICE RETURNED NOT SERVED
06/04/2015           NOTICE
RESENT TO ADDRESS ON FILE


I only see one felony for him with Pinellas county so likely he lives in another county. Probably Orlando or South Florida would be my guess.


Felony Battery carries UP TO 5 years, but they will plead it down and he will probably not do time unless he has enough felonies for a habitual (3 times and you're out) or enough points to be sent away. If he does go to prison and is sentenced to 5 yrs (unlikely) he will serve between 11 months to 2 years out of the 5.

[Boethius]

It doesn't make sense to me that an arrest (as opposed to a conviction) would result in a violation of probation.

[Boethius]

Felony Battery carries UP TO 5 years, but they will plead it down and he will probably do not time unless he has enough felonies for a habitual (3 times and you're out) or enough points to be sent away. If he does go to prison and is sentenced to 5 yrs (unlikely) he will serve between 11 months to 2 years out of the 5.

I don't know how busy the courts there are, but that tourist would be long gone by the time the case was heard here, unless the accused plead down or plead guilty.

[Boethius]

You just don't like people debating you, especially women. 

And a gasp "liberal", to boot.

[alex330]

It doesn't make sense to me that an arrest (as opposed to a conviction) would result in a violation of probation.

Even if you miss meeting your parole officer you have violated parole. If you are pulled over in a vehicle with other known felons you have violated. If you are somewhere you should not be you can be violated. These are the rules here in Florida.

[alex330]

I don't know how busy the courts there are, but that tourist would be long gone by the time the case was heard here, unless the accused plead down or plead guilty.

Courts are overwhelmed here so you make a good point. The case will be dropped unless she flies back several times. The State of Florida may pick it up on her behalf, but they may not due to caseload or lack of evidence/witness.

[Boethius]

Even if you miss meeting your parole officer you have violated parole. If you are pulled over in a vehicle with other known felons you have violated. If you are somewhere you should not be you can be violated. These are the rules here in Florida.

Yes, those are the rules here, too.  However, being charged (as opposed to convicted) with an offense would not be a violation of parole.

[alex330]

Yes, those are the rules here, too.  However, being charged (as opposed to convicted) with an offense would not be a violation of parole.

Ok, slightly different here. Just a charge or breaking the terms of your parole (drug test, weapon, association with known felons, etc) will violate you. They will then hold you without bail until a hearing before the judge who will deal with the next step (reinstate, jail time, etc).

[Miquel Westano]

Please point out where I suggested the woman deserved to be assaulted. 

Yes, I posted I have no sympathy for her.  I do have empathy, even if she is from nomenklatura.  Nowhere did I post she deserved to be subjected to a loud boom box in her face, let alone be assaulted.

I don't expect you will understand the difference.

Except that's not what you wrote before.  Instead you said:


Because as a mother, the woman showed poor judgment.  It tells me she is likely from a family of former nomenklatura.  Hence, I have little sympathy for her.

So let's parse that out.  is that right parse?  I think so, but may be wrong.

1.  showed poor judgment

So since you believe her actions were poor judgment obviously you feel she was partially to blame.

2.  likely from a family of former nomenklatura

So her entitled attitude was to blame too in your opinion.

3.  hence, I have little sympathy for her

So you believe she had poor judgment, was uppity and you don't sympathize.  But now that you were called on it, you empathize with her. 

I liked this too.

The fact she asked him to turn down his music, rather than move, even if polite, suggests an entitlement attitude/imperiousness I have witnessed time and again among certain layers of FSU society. 

1.  rather than move.

So when good people are imposed upon your thought are to accept the victimization and move.

2.  entitlement attitude

Wanting to enjoy the public beach free of loud music and drunkenness is arrogant and domineering.

3.  Certain layers of FSU society.

So without knowing her she is not only arrogant, but a society snob.

I guess I must be entitled and a arrogant domineering snob too.  I don't see any reason in the world I should have to move for a lawbreaker.  I refuse to live life cowering in fear just so some bully doesn't beat me up.  I guess I would deserve it too in your eyes.  But I refuse to move even a fraction of a percent of the blame from the criminal and apply it to the innocent victim.

Gee I guess you are right.  I just don't see how I assumed you felt she got what was coming to her.  Anyway as I have pointed out you will always get the last word.  But you and I both know what you meant and I suspect most of the people reading did too. 

[Boethius]

Except that's not what you wrote before.  Instead you said:


Because as a mother, the woman showed poor judgment.  It tells me she is likely from a family of former nomenklatura.  Hence, I have little sympathy for her.

So let's parse that out.  is that right parse?  I think so, but may be wrong.

1.  showed poor judgment

So since you believe her actions were poor judgment obviously you feel she was partially to blame.

No, you are reading what you want into my post.  She is not to blame for being attacked.  She is to blame for putting her child in harm's way, though.

2.  likely from a family of former nomenklatura

So her entitled attitude was to blame too in your opinion.

Yup.  If she didn't have an entitlement attitude, she would have done what every normal person in that situation would have done.  Which is move down what presumably is miles of beach.

3.  hence, I have little sympathy for her

So you believe she had poor judgment, was uppity and you don't sympathize.  But now that you were called on it, you empathize with her. 

I have empathy for her.  You do know the difference between sympathy and empathy, correct?

1.  rather than move.

So when good people are imposed upon your thought are to accept the victimization and move.

When you are dealing with someone you don't know, who is bigger, and who is intoxicated (note his eyes in the photo - any thinking person would see he is intoxicated), you'd better believe it.  As Tag stated, choose your battles.  If you are a woman with a small child, your obligation is to that child.  She was lucky all he did was turn up his boom box and grab her.  It could have escalated to something much worse.  And her child would be the one, no matter what it was, who would pay the price.

2.  entitlement attitude

Wanting to enjoy the public beach free of loud music and drunkenness is arrogant and domineering.

Demanding someone obey your desire in a public space is arrogant.

3.  Certain layers of FSU society.

So without knowing her she is not only arrogant, but a society snob.

I didn't say she was a society snob.  There is no real "society" in the FSU.  At least, not in the Western understanding.


Once again, reading what you want into my post, rather than what I actually posted.

I guess I must be entitled and a arrogant domineering snob too.  I don't see any reason in the world I should have to move for a lawbreaker.  I refuse to live life cowering in fear just so some bully doesn't beat me up.  I guess I would deserve it too in your eyes.  But I refuse to move even a fraction of a percent of the blame from the criminal and apply it to the innocent victim.

If you want to run out and confront some drunken felon to make a point, be my guest.  When he whacks you over the head with a club, don't expect me to give you sympathy for your stupidity.  I will have empathy for the fact you were attacked, believe the attacker should be charged, but a lack of common sense has consequences.  The world is, and has always been, a relatively dangerous place.

When our daughter was younger, she wanted to take the bus home late at night.  That was forbidden for her, but not for her brother, who is a year younger.  She thought that unfair.  I pointed out to her the life is not fair, she may as well learn it in her tender teen years.   And one of the realities of life is that girls walking home alone at night are attacked.  Boys, at least in this neck of the woods, are not.  I didn't make that rule, but common sense told me that whether I made it or not, it exists.

But you and I both know what you meant and I suspect most of the people reading did too.

I know what I meant.  Based on your posts, it is obvious to me that you did not.

[LiveFromUkraine]

Miquel, it's a public beach.  If you don't like loud music you can just move to a location that is more quiet.  Why do you insist this woman has the right to tell others how to use the beach? 

As for why BO mentioned Ukraine, this is a forum dedicated to Ukraine/Russian relationships and culture.  Women have less recourse there than you would find here.  The chances of a woman getting beat down for "asking" the wrong guy is far greater. 

Bo has a point.  If you would read without trying to twist the meaning you may learn something.   I have seen how some Ukrainians ask and it is more like telling someone what to do which could escalate matters.

You came here to learn yet all I see is you arguing.  Why are you here again? 

[Miquel Westano]

Miquel, it's a public beach.  If you don't like loud music you can just move to a location that is more quiet.  Why do you insist this woman has the right to tell others how to use the beach? 

As for why BO mentioned Ukraine, this is a forum dedicated to Ukraine/Russian relationships and culture.  Women have less recourse there than you would find here.  The chances of a woman getting beat down for "asking" the wrong guy is far greater. 

Bo has a point.  If you would read without trying to twist the meaning you may learn something.   I have seen how some Ukrainians ask and it is more like telling someone what to do which could escalate matters.

You came here to learn yet all I see is you arguing.  Why are you here again?

You are right you can always run.  Cowards do it every day.  But it is a public beach like you say.  That means she had the right to be there too.  The felon did not have the right to be drunk and disorderly, to play loud music with profanity in it, or most definitely to physically assault the woman.

I don't follow the rule of running.  If a loud mouth drunk blares profanity when my grandchildren are near I am going to confront him.  Now I am not tough, but I am harder to whip than some small FSU mom.  If you want to spend your life running, do it.  It is always easier for some people to run, but not me.   

That has nothing to do with my original question.  I still don't understand looking for mitigating circumstances to excuse the criminal and feeling no sympathy for someone attacked by a drunken felonious thug.  Despite what Bo says, it is hard to empathize with someone you feel got what they deserve and have no sympathy for.  Bo indicates the woman's response was wrong.  Then claims she has the ability to put herself in the woman's, position and understand her feelings.  I doubt it.

I don't care whether she was uppity or not, bossy or not or demanding or not.  The minute he put his hands on her, there was no excuse and it wasn't her fault.  I don't excuse rapist because women wear high heels and short skirts and I don't excuse drunken felon woman beaters because the woman was uppity.  Lots of wife beaters blame their uppity wives and claim they were just driven to hitting them.  That doesn't cut it with me either.  There is no excuse for striking anyone, especially a woman. 

I didn't twist a thing and you know it and so does Bo.  She has some resentment about certain classes in the FSU, and some prejudice about a woman she has never met.  She implied the woman somehow got what she deserved.  That's despicable.

I am learning plenty here, both good and bad.  The line I highlighted indicates you might agree this lady had it coming.  I don't. 

As to why I am here.  It is because I want to be.  The more important question is why do you care?  My opinions are mine and mine alone.  Bo said it herself and I will refer to it again.  I am free to post when and where I want.  And I point out, you are free to just skip my replies.  As to my arguing.  It takes two to argue, so you are too.  Also it appears to be just the same people over and over that like to argue with me. 

[Muzh]

Miquel, it's a public beach.  If you don't like loud music you can just move to a location that is more quiet.  Why do you insist this woman has the right to tell others how to use the beach? 

As for why BO mentioned Ukraine, this is a forum dedicated to Ukraine/Russian relationships and culture.  Women have less recourse there than you would find here.  The chances of a woman getting beat down for "asking" the wrong guy is far greater. 

Bo has a point.  If you would read without trying to twist the meaning you may learn something.   I have seen how some Ukrainians ask and it is more like telling someone what to do which could escalate matters.

You came here to learn yet all I see is you arguing.  Why are you here again?

Isn't this the same guy that came to this forum because he was curious about the former Soyuz and wanted to learn more?


It seems to me that now the birds are shooting at the hunters. 

[Muzh]

You are right you can always run.  Cowards do it every day.  But it is a public beach like you say.  That means she had the right to be there too.  The felon did not have the right to be drunk and disorderly, to play loud music with profanity in it, or most definitely to physically assault the woman.

I seriously doubt very much that you would instigate a fight with a much younger and stronger guy.


Heck, I doubt very much that you would instigate a fight with someone your own age and built. And if you do, man, that says a lot about you.

[Boethius]

I didn't twist a thing and you know it and so does Bo.  She has some resentment about certain classes in the FSU, and some prejudice about a woman she has never met.  She implied the woman somehow got what she deserved.  That's despicable.

I have never posted she got what she deserved.  No matter how many times you post that, it will not be true.  You know what is despicable?  The fact that you are lying in an attempt to prove your point.

Bo indicates the woman's response was wrong.  Then claims she has the ability to put herself in the woman's, position and understand her feelings.  I doubt it.

Oh, I understand her feelings perfectly.  "How dare someone play loud, objectionable music in my sphere.  He must cease at once!"

As for my "resentment", no, I don't resent them.  But I know how they act, and why.  Let me tell you some of the things I have seen, and some my husband observed.

1.  A young couple sitting on a park bench.  Another couple, from a higher class in a supposedly classless proletarian society, walks by.  The woman of the second couple says "I want to sit down."  Her male companion throws the sitting young man on the bench to the ground, then flashes his party card.

2.  This one happened to someone I know - A party car ploughs into a crowd of pedestrians on Kyiv's main street.  A child (the 7 year old daughter of the person I know) is killed.  The driver gets out, intoxicated, and flashes his party card.  When the police arrive (main street, in less than a minute), they let the driver go and berate the pedestrians for crossing the street (on the light).  No charges are ever laid against the driver.  The person I know was visited and threatened when he tried to pursue the matter.

3.  People are sitting in a juice bar, talking and drinking juice. Komsomol members come in and pick out random customers, and take them to barbers because of their "decadent" Western hair.

4.  A neighbour has a painting by a famous artist.  It has been in his family for generations.  A party member sees it, decides he likes it, and has police come to the neighbour's apartment and take the painting to the party member's own apartment.

Those are a few of the milder ones.  I could relay far more stories, but why bother?

The entitlement attitude continues, I see it when I visit Ukraine.  They are now the "elite" of their society.  No traffic tickets, no laws apply when they steal apartments, no consequences when they steal billions from the public.  It's evident in all spheres of public life.  Rules that apply to ordinary mortals don't apply to them.


If you want to sympathize with these types, go ahead.  But don't twist my words to make your point.

[Slumba]

Miquel, it's a public beach.  If you don't like loud music you can just move to a location that is more quiet.  Why do you insist this woman has the right to tell others how to use the beach? 

After one of the women asked Henry to turn down his music, he “walked his music box over to the mother and her 2 year old child” and “turned the music up as loud as possible causing the child to cry from the audible pain.” The boombox was about one foot from the child.

I recommend reading the article before commenting. 

[Boethius]

That doesn't change the fact that she told someone else how to use the beach because it was bothering her.

[Muzh]

After one of the women asked Henry to turn down his music, he “walked his music box over to the mother and her 2 year old child” and “turned the music up as loud as possible causing the child to cry from the audible pain.” The boombox was about one foot from the child.

I recommend reading the article before commenting. 

I recommend you read the posts to understand what the argument is about. 

[LiveFromUkraine]

After one of the women asked Henry to turn down his music, he “walked his music box over to the mother and her 2 year old child” and “turned the music up as loud as possible causing the child to cry from the audible pain.” The boombox was about one foot from the child.

I recommend reading the article before commenting. 

Let me know if you have more problems understanding what I wrote.   I will do my best to help you sound out the big words.

[Slumba]

I recommend you read the posts to understand what the argument is about. 

Maybe you didn't read LFU post, where he says the woman could have moved?  The guy deliberately brought his ghetto blaster closer to them.