Family based question

[oso]

I am seeking opinions and hopefully I can resolve an issue.

My wife and step-daughter fight like cats and dogs....constantly... They will fight for hours about the most little things, i.e. the color of the letters in a sign. I have talked to my wife about this and her reply is "I will not let her win". I have explained to her when daughter makes her angry, she has won. When you are angry, you lose control.
Would I be over-stepping by getting in the middle and putting a stop to this? Or does this require a 2x4 to the back of a head?

[jone]

I am seeking opinions and hopefully I can resolve an issue.

My wife and step-daughter fight like cats and dogs....constantly... They will fight for hours about the most little things, i.e. the color of the letters in a sign. I have talked to my wife about this and her reply is "I will not let her win". I have explained to her when daughter makes her angry, she has won. When you are angry, you lose control.
Would I be over-stepping by getting in the middle and putting a stop to this? Or does this require a 2x4 to the back of a head?

How many psychologists does it take to change a light bulb?  Ans: One.  But the light bulb has to want to change.

[oso]

How many psychologists does it take to change a light bulb?  Ans: One.  But the light bulb has to want to change.

Wrong answer...it takes two. One to hold light bulb, and one to turn ladder

[Gator]

I have talked to my wife about this and her reply is "I will not let her win".

For sure  a FSU woman.

 

I have explained to her when daughter makes her angry, she has won. When you are angry, you lose control.

Is the daughter a teenager?   Teenagers are known to be defiant.  Does the daughter remain calm while mama is angry?    If so, there is your answer.

Would I be over-stepping by getting in the middle and putting a stop to this? Or does this require a 2x4 to the back of a head?

Neither.  Let them work it out.  But keep reminding privately  all the good qualities you see in each of them.

BTW, my wife never argues with her 26-yo daughter and they are very close.  The 16-yo son fights frequently, usually screaming, "I will never marry a Russian woman!"

[fathertime]

I am seeking opinions and hopefully I can resolve an issue.

My wife and step-daughter fight like cats and dogs....constantly... They will fight for hours about the most little things, i.e. the color of the letters in a sign. I have talked to my wife about this and her reply is "I will not let her win".

If this not done in a friendly way, it isn't good, and a pain to be around.  I would say that mom's attitude shouldn't be framed in terms of 'winning/losing'.  Everybody loses,(including you) when a stupid argument "about colors" occurs all day about something unimportant.  Yes, if it is bothering you a lot, I think I'd intervene privately with the mom, until the bickering ends.




Fathertime!   

[oso]

Nope this is out of control.....daughter is 21. They go for blood....screaming, tears and bad feelings follow

[Wayne]

It looks like you are living in Kyiv with your wife and step daughter. We would like a little more information.
 
If your wife was raised, as you said, in USSR, her perspective on life could be a lot different than the 21 year old daughter. They could have a lot of different opinions. You probably won't be able to change that.
 
Has the daughter finished her education?
Does she have a job?
Does she drive?
Would it be possible for the daugher to move out on her own?
Does she have a boy friend?
How strict is the mother?
 
 

[ML]

I have seen this with a few other families.

It is the equivalent of the males fighting for dominance.

And, at the opposite end of the spectrum, I have seen families where the mothers-daughters have an extremely close (and non-arguing) relationship their entire lives.

I suspect there will never be peace between the arguing mothers-daughters . . . at least until the daughter is age 40 or so.  Maybe not then.

I personally would not put up with it at all.
Get the daughter out of your house and life . . . or both of them.
And don't visit the daughter with wife present.

[Muzh]

I am seeking opinions and hopefully I can resolve an issue.

My wife and step-daughter fight like cats and dogs....constantly... They will fight for hours about the most little things, i.e. the color of the letters in a sign. I have talked to my wife about this and her reply is "I will not let her win". I have explained to her when daughter makes her angry, she has won. When you are angry, you lose control.
Would I be over-stepping by getting in the middle and putting a stop to this? Or does this require a 2x4 to the back of a head?

It is very simple. Your wife wants your daughter out of the house.


Not joking.

[Larry1]

Oso,

I'm not clear on one point. Is this your stepdaughter (your wife's daughter) or your wife's stepdaughter (your daughter).

[Boethius]

Stay out of it.  Leave the room when they are arguing, or go for a walk.  Support neither's opinions, and if asked, play dumb.  It's a no win for you, and putting yourself in the middle eventually will result in you being the "enemy" of both.  They, eventually, will sort it out.

[jone]

Stay out of it.  Leave the room when they are arguing, or go for a walk.  Support neither's opinions, and if asked, play dumb.  It's a no win for you, and putting yourself in the middle eventually will result in you being the "enemy" of both.  They, eventually, will sort it out.

Or not.  I thought you were the expert on FSU relationships.  I have seen many such relationships go to their graves without speaking to each other.  I have a perfect example of that right now in my woman's family.  The older generation is dying of cancer and the younger generation will not speak to the elder, even though they sit at the same dinner table.

I agree with the idea that he shouldn't intercede. 

[Brasscasing]

Nope this is out of control.....daughter is 21. They go for blood....screaming, tears and bad feelings follow

Try a 'sandwich'.

Top slice of bread;

Next time a scrap ensues sit them both down and let them know you love them and are glad they're both part of your life, etc. etc.

Meat;

However, they're constant bickering is putting stress on you and destroying the fabric of what you envision a happy family should be (words to that effect) and you want it to stop.

Bottom slice of bread;

What's it gonna take to put an end to the arguments and ask them to explain to you why are they fighting in the first place.

Bo, is right, though. You risk becoming the bad guy. Both these women are adults, albeit one is a very young adult. Having said that, I feel you are also taking a risk by not voicing your concerns as they both might take that as you condoning their behavior when it is clearly troubling you.

I should add as a disclaimer. I was never very good with internal family conflicts...I tended to default to "Stop screwing around" which of course left most issues unresolved and simmering for a boil over later.

So whatever your course of action, try to avoid my default course of action. I've learned over the years it's not very successful when it comes to family matters. 

It ain't much but it's all I got. Good luck.

Brass

[calmissile]

Stay out of it.  Leave the room when they are arguing, or go for a walk.  Support neither's opinions, and if asked, play dumb.  It's a no win for you, and putting yourself in the middle eventually will result in you being the "enemy" of both.  They, eventually, will sort it out.

Agree 100%

[oso]

It looks like you are living in Kyiv with your wife and step daughter. We would like a little more information.
 
If your wife was raised, as you said, in USSR, her perspective on life could be a lot different than the 21 year old daughter. They could have a lot of different opinions. You probably won't be able to change that.
 
Has the daughter finished her education?
Does she have a job?
Does she drive?
Would it be possible for the daugher to move out on her own?
Does she have a boy friend?
How strict is the mother?
[/quote]
To help with a solution I will answer some questions asked, then I will give additional information that may help.....
This is my wife's daughter
Yes she has finished her studies in Prague last year
She has her first job, working at home as a graphic designer for a american company based in Detroit
No she doesn't drive.....our car was stolen in Crimea 2 years ago
Yes we could move daughter to another flat....I do not support that and will explain later
Yes she has a boyfriend, and this may a problem in more ways than one. You might say my wife doesn't play well with Russians. Daughters boyfriend is Russian and mother does not approve. We both think he is abusive to daughter in many ways.
Is mother strict?....could be.....I think she feels more guilty......I will explain that also

My wife works very hard, and is a workaholic....she partnered up with five other people and created a bank that grew into the largest bank in Ukraine. She was the president and CEO and was addicted to the growth and social status that her job gave her. Needless to say there was no time for family, her marriage failed and her daughter went to live with her mother. She would "visit" her daughter when she had the time....and would take her on business travels with her.
When I met my wife she was in Geneva on business and flew to Paris to meet me. It was vacation mode so I really didn't understand the issues until I came to Ukraine to scope out her way of life. Her driver would be at the door @7am and she would get home around midnight. After about 45 days of that crap I told her that her lifestyle was not for me and I was going back to the US.
She told me that our relationship was very important to her and she would change.....I am thinking, ya right!
Amazing.....since then she has been home no later 19:30.....WOW!
Her mother passed before we meet and daughter was away at school. When the daughter returned home she made my life a living hell. She was mean and quite nasty to me and always gave me the cold shoulder with the FSU stares. When I told my wife I couldn't take it and I was going home, mother turned her wrath on the daughter. She told her she was not going to ruin her relationship with me and would move her to her own flat.

 This is where I stepped in and said "NO" we all must learn to get along and besides you will be giving her what she wants. The daughter didn't change at all. I talked to the daughter and asked her if she wanted me to leave. I explained I would not tell her mother anything about our conversation. I also told her I have been nothing but kind and loving to her but yet you treat me like shit....She said stay.

I thought American kids were spoiled....not even close to this. She has no responsibilities, we have a live in maid. She runs around Europe with unlimited funds provided by her mother, and loves to shop.
My relationship with the daughter has been trying to say the least. But has turned to the better this last year.
The daughter now speaks to me with respect, and actually thanks me for the little things I do for her and the gifts I bring. She teaches me language and actually talks about her life to me....another WOW!

She feels that her mother "crashed her life"....she states she has no friends and is afraid of everything.

Now sometimes these arguments they get into are justified....the daughter can have a smart mouth, and those I will stay out of.
My wife is going through the "change of life" and has some difficult times with emotions and physical issues.
The daughter whines and cries about the smallest things, and thats what starts the war.....Now if you know my wife, she will walk away for a few minutes.....it's not to dismiss things....she walked away to load up the big guns and she is coming back armed....Now most times she will come to me and I can defuse her.....I just hug her and tell her it is not worth it, just drop it.... Some of the time it works and some of the time it doesn't.

I can not leave the house when the war starts....That will cause another problem. I thought of just telling them to STOP and not take anybody's side.....They both respect my position as the "man of the house" but I am not sure I want to stick my hand in the middle of a cat fight....some how I might shed some blood.

[Brasscasing]

To help with a solution I will answer some questions asked, then I will give additional information that may help.....
This is my wife's daughter
Yes she has finished her studies in Prague last year
She has her first job, working at home as a graphic designer for a american company based in Detroit
No she doesn't drive.....our car was stolen in Crimea 2 years ago
Yes we could move daughter to another flat....I do not support that and will explain later
Yes she has a boyfriend, and this may a problem in more ways than one. You might say my wife doesn't play well with Russians. Daughters boyfriend is Russian and mother does not approve. We both think he is abusive to daughter in many ways.
Is mother strict?....could be.....I think she feels more guilty......I will explain that also

My wife works very hard, and is a workaholic....she partnered up with five other people and created a bank that grew into the largest bank in Ukraine. She was the president and CEO and was addicted to the growth and social status that her job gave her. Needless to say there was no time for family, her marriage failed and her daughter went to live with her mother. She would "visit" her daughter when she had the time....and would take her on business travels with her.
When I met my wife she was in Geneva on business and flew to Paris to meet me. It was vacation mode so I really didn't understand the issues until I came to Ukraine to scope out her way of life. Her driver would be at the door @7am and she would get home around midnight. After about 45 days of that crap I told her that her lifestyle was not for me and I was going back to the US.
She told me that our relationship was very important to her and she would change.....I am thinking, ya right!
Amazing.....since then she has been home no later 19:30.....WOW!
Her mother passed before we meet and daughter was away at school. When the daughter returned home she made my life a living hell. She was mean and quite nasty to me and always gave me the cold shoulder with the FSU stares. When I told my wife I couldn't take it and I was going home, mother turned her wrath on the daughter. She told her she was not going to ruin her relationship with me and would move her to her own flat.

 This is where I stepped in and said "NO" we all must learn to get along and besides you will be giving her what she wants. The daughter didn't change at all. I talked to the daughter and asked her if she wanted me to leave. I explained I would not tell her mother anything about our conversation. I also told her I have been nothing but kind and loving to her but yet you treat me like shit....She said stay.

I thought American kids were spoiled....not even close to this. She has no responsibilities, we have a live in maid. She runs around Europe with unlimited funds provided by her mother, and loves to shop.
My relationship with the daughter has been trying to say the least. But has turned to the better this last year.
The daughter now speaks to me with respect, and actually thanks me for the little things I do for her and the gifts I bring. She teaches me language and actually talks about her life to me....another WOW!

She feels that her mother "crashed her life"....she states she has no friends and is afraid of everything.

Now sometimes these arguments they get into are justified....the daughter can have a smart mouth, and those I will stay out of.
My wife is going through the "change of life" and has some difficult times with emotions and physical issues.
The daughter whines and cries about the smallest things, and thats what starts the war.....Now if you know my wife, she will walk away for a few minutes.....it's not to dismiss things....she walked away to load up the big guns and she is coming back armed....Now most times she will come to me and I can defuse her.....I just hug her and tell her it is not worth it, just drop it.... Some of the time it works and some of the time it doesn't.

I can not leave the house when the war starts....That will cause another problem. I thought of just telling them to STOP and not take anybody's side.....They both respect my position as the "man of the house" but I am not sure I want to stick my hand in the middle of a cat fight....some how I might shed some blood.

This is a somewhat more complicated situation than your opening post suggests, oso.

However, my advice regarding this course of action (my bolded) still stands. You may quell the arguments temporarily, however, they'll be left to simmer on the backburner and eventually boil over again.

Based on what you've told us. The cause(s) of your current dilemma may well stem from several unresolved issues.

Your wife's decision to have your daughter live with her (your wife's) mother.  Her(your wife's) decision to put career before family and the divorce of her (daughter's) parents as a result of that decision being among those unresolved issues, I'd surmise.

Coupled with the other issues you've touched on not the least of which is the boyfriend issue. You may well be left with few options as to what can be done to resolve this.

You've presented a challenging situation. I'll also be interested to see what advice is given to assist with your multi facetted problem.

I'm curious, what prompted you to kibosh the idea of the daughter moving out. Mom may have been giving daughter what she wanted (as you've worded it) however, wouldn't that have solved the [edit: immediate problem of the constant bickering] and given them (and you) some space? Can you expand on your reasoning for your decision if it's not too personal?

Brass

[Gator]

Oso,

Very interesting and complicated story. 

My summary:  This issue is not about you, but between your wife and her daughter.  Your wife certainly has enough money to retain a qualified psychological counselor to help the relationship with her daughter.  Instead of you trying to play psychologist, encourage the two to seek professional counseling.   

To repeat, encourage your wife to SEEK PROFESSIONAL HELP.   I say this because the issues between your wife and daughter are deep seated and past mistakes have left scars.  Why?

1.  Your wife is a successful, hard working business executive, i. e., a BOSS..  The personal attributes responsible for business success do not necessarily help a "BOSS" be a good spouse and parent.  The psychology books are replete with such examples, although most are about men executives.   

2. Now add the fact your wife was an absentee mother.  My Russian ex-wife was raised by her grandmother while her mother was busy doing everything but being a mother.  This was not a year here and there; it was throughout her childhood and teenage years.  My wife resented this immensely, especially considering  her father was much  worse (I will state he was horrible and with his actions created even deeper scars).  A huge divide separated my ex-wife and her mother, and it remained that way until grandmother died when my ex-wife was almost 30-yo.  The death necessitated the two to rebuild the bridge.   It took several years but they eventually became friendly and would confide with each other. 

A counselor will help your wife and her daughter  resolve  such issues as:  a)  the mother wanting to be the "boss" while her adult daughter wants time and parity with her, and b) spoiling a child with lavish spending money does not help their maturation, etc.  Plus a counselor can help them address and accept the past mistakes.  This is  important  because the  clock can not be turned back, nor does time wash away the scars from those mistakes.  These two need help. 

[Miquel Westano]

Stay out of it.  Leave the room when they are arguing, or go for a walk.  Support neither's opinions, and if asked, play dumb.  It's a no win for you, and putting yourself in the middle eventually will result in you being the "enemy" of both.  They, eventually, will sort it out.

I agree completely with this advice.  My wife's family is large and there is always a feud between sisters, brothers, aunts, uncles or some such.  It spills over to my wife and our daughters from time to time.  These girls are both of our natural daughters, yet they fight like strangers from time to time with each other and my wife.

I learned the hard way what boe is telling you.  You simply can not win as a mediator.  When the bickering starts, leave and stay out of it unless you are willing to take a side and risk the relationship with one or the other.  I tried to make peace in our house and found all it did was make one or the other feel like I was siding against them.

When people are mad, they are not going to listen to your reasoning. Instead they will just expect you to side with them or against them.  Save yourself a lot of grief and stress.  Sooner or later they will accept each other or completely sever their ties.  Either way you will be a lot happier if you still have good relations with both of them.

[oso]

There has been professional help..... but the daughter stopped going.My wife does leave the boss at the office.
My wife knows now what her career has cost....something money can't buy....the relationship with her daughter. She feels guilt and feels that she missed out raising her child. I told her you can't get those times back, but you can start to have a relationship now.

The reason I said "no" to daughter moving out has a couple sides. By moving daughter out is the same as before....abandonment. Also if we are a family, we need to get along as a family. I have the patience of Jobe, kind, loving, quite understanding and forgiving.....I am willing to try. I believe my patience has paid off. Daughter and I have come a very long way and I believe we enjoy each other. And we can talk, as I have gained her trust. I never discuss our conversations with mother.

I almost thought I would talk to daughter and let her know how I feel when she wants to scrap with mother. Daughter has become sensitive to my feelings and has really tried....

There is a solution here...I do know the pot started boiling years ago....

And there is going to be one last hurdle.....My wife is going to step down from her job, and has planned a board meeting for announcement.....

[2tallbill]

There has been professional help..... but the daughter stopped going.My wife does leave the boss at the office.
My wife knows now what her career has cost....something money can't buy....the relationship with her daughter. She feels guilt and feels that she missed out raising her child. I told her you can't get those times back, but you can start to have a relationship now.

Boys fight with their Dads and think they are complete idiots from age 15 until they reach approx 25
then they realize that they didn't know everything like they thought and that their Dads weren't quite
the idiots they seemed to be at the time.

Girls fight with their mothers and think they are complete idiots from the age 13 until they reach age
22 or 23. So the nature part of your problem should eventually start getting better. The deeper issues
probably need to be worked out between the girls themselves.

Udachi!


Bill

[Wayne]

Does your wife have any other children?

Does the daughter have a relationship with her birth father?

Do you do anything together, the three of you, as a family?

How do you spend holidays, vacations, birthdays, etc.?

What was you terrible experience in Crimea?

Would you go to Crimea again?

[Gator]

There has been professional help..... but the daughter stopped going.

That happens if the daughter feels that the psychologist is pointing blame at her or if she feels the mother is not showing any change.  A good psychologist will not allow that and instead be an  advocate for each and  the relationship.  Maybe the psychologist is not very good.  Did you ask the daughter why she stopped going?

Even if the daughter does not attend counseling, your wife should continue to go.  A good psychologist will help your wife break down the barrier separating her from her daughter. 

.....My wife is going to step down from her job, and has planned a board meeting for announcement.....

Excellent, provided she truly can hit the "OFF" switch and walk away from the job. 

[BillyB]

The reason I said "no" to daughter moving out has a couple sides. By moving daughter out is the same as before....abandonment.

Who's abandoning who? Your daughter already has abandoned her mother by disrespecting her regularly.

I have the patience of Jobe, kind, loving, quite understanding and forgiving.....I am willing to try. I believe my patience has paid off.

Forgiving and being patient doesn't seem to have an effect on the girls fighting all the time.

Daughter and I have come a very long way and I believe we enjoy each other. And we can talk, as I have gained her trust.

You give her a roof over her head and feed her. She better be nice but she doesn't respect you enough to stop fighting with her mother.


Some say you should step out of this and walk away when they fight. Why should you have to leave the house every time there's a fight? There should be house rules and you should enforce them. You and your wife are king and queen and if the guests, even if they're your kids, are rude in ANY way to the king and queen, they are to get ejected from the house. Until you have rules and enforce them, you will never earn the respect you wish. Personally, I could not live with this drama. I don't care about looking like a bad guy for getting involved. I would be taking action immediately to restore order in the house by outlawing petty disagreements.

[Brasscasing]

There has been professional help..... but the daughter stopped going.My wife does leave the boss at the office.
My wife knows now what her career has cost....something money can't buy....the relationship with her daughter. She feels guilt and feels that she missed out raising her child. I told her you can't get those times back, but you can start to have a relationship now.

The reason I said "no" to daughter moving out has a couple sides. By moving daughter out is the same as before....abandonment. Also if we are a family, we need to get along as a family. I have the patience of Jobe, kind, loving, quite understanding and forgiving.....I am willing to try. I believe my patience has paid off. Daughter and I have come a very long way and I believe we enjoy each other. And we can talk, as I have gained her trust. I never discuss our conversations with mother.

I almost thought I would talk to daughter and let her know how I feel when she wants to scrap with mother. Daughter has become sensitive to my feelings and has really tried....[/b]

There is a solution here...I do know the pot started boiling years ago....

And there is going to be one last hurdle.....My wife is going to step down from her job, and has planned a board meeting for announcement.....

Shows you care and that's a good thing (my bolded).

Has the daughter ever mentioned the feeling of abandonment to you or have you ever heard it brought up in any of the arguments?

I ask this because you mention that your wife knows what her career has cost and wonder if she is defensive about it or has a sense of guilt of her past decisions.

Has she (your wife) ever conveyed a sense of guilt over past life choices to you?

In your own mind do you think your wife made some mistakes?

There is something else to consider here. You are not responsible for your wife's decisions in her earlier years. Yes, it is effecting your life now, however, from reading your narratives I get the sense you may even be, possibly without knowing it, assuming some of the guilt for events you are not responsible for.

If you are, I think it's important you not base any decisions you might make from that premise. Ultimately, it is incumbent on the women to sort their differences out.

By this I mean that as men, much as we hate to admit it, in life there are some circumstances that are simply beyond our control no matter how hard we'd like to make it right. This becomes especially relevant with a new relationship and the family, friends and history that comes with it.

Even with the patience of Jobe, you may not be able to fix this, oso. If it's getting to a point that their arguing is effecting your life, marriage and household as  you've conveyed it is. You may have to concede that the daughter moving is a viable option for your own peace of mind.

Brass

[oso]

Does your wife have any other children? 

Does the daughter have a relationship with her birth father?

Do you do anything together, the three of you, as a family?

How do you spend holidays, vacations, birthdays, etc.?

What was you terrible experience in Crimea?

Would you go to Crimea again?

No other children

Her dad lives on the next street over and she visits him about once a week. My wife has been friends with him , and I have met him.....I like him, but not sure the feeling is mutual

We eat dinner every night as a family, Friday night I take the family out. Saturday is girl's day...facials, beautician, and they get their nails done. Or for a treat I will send them to the spa. Sunday we go to a cafe and maybe daughter wants to look at new fashions and wants our opinions .....Holiday's and Kyiv events we are a family. I try to treat the daughter just as I treat my son.....she is very much a part of the family unit and I invite her to join in the adventures

My wife won't allow me in Crimea

Don't get me wrong here, There are more good/happy times here... There is a lot of laughter, jokes, pranks and story telling. We also play a lot of board games...It is not all gloom and doom