Islamists threaten to attack Russia very soon and make their wives concubines

[Slumba]

Read what I actually wrote.  There were virtually no radicalized Muslims before 1979.


The Arabs T.E. Lawrence was fighting with were battling fellow Sunni Muslims.  They weren't fighting in the name of religion. 

The Arabs fought with asymmetrical warfare against the Ottoman Empire. 

By attacking the railway in guerrilla operations, they forced a huge amount of Ottoman resources to be dedicated to protecting the railway system.

They specifically, were both authorized and encouraged to do so, by the Sharif of Mecca, who could trace his descent from Mohammed's grandson.  See:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hussein_bin_Ali,_Sharif_of_Mecca

Hmmm, let me think... a guy who memorized the whole of the Koran by the time he was 20 ... might he have been religious? 

Might he have said something along a religious line when fighting the Young Turks, who he thought of as "impious"?

In fact, you could well trace the use of terrorist / guerrilla ops to the Arab world, to the events that Lawrence participated in.  All of which happened well before 1979.

Have you ever actually read anything any traveler to Arab or Muslim lands, ever wrote? 

They had blood feuds even in Lawrence's band; he had to execute a member of his own group in order to keep the peace.  They've always had a radicalized, and anti-infidel bent...

[Boethius]

So what?  It is all irrelevant to the discussion.

I could point you to travelogues in Russia Ukraine, where until communism, people routinely greated each other with "Glory to Jesus", and the only response was "Glory for all time".  There are observations of travellers to Russia in the 18th, 19th, and even 20th centuries remarking on how often people in this region attended church, their religious dietary requirements, etc. 

Fyodor Mikhailovich, the Russian tsar, was extremely pious, yet he was ruthless in his battles against the Poles (and ended up claiming much of Central/Eastern Ukraine).  He sent money and help to the Serbs. 


I could point you to guerilla tactics used in various wars of "liberation" fought in Europe, in Asia, in Latin America, and yes, even in the United States.

The Cossacks routinely prayed before battle, most had high levels of religious training, and one of their most fundamental tenets was to defend Orthodoxy above all else.

Show me where the Arab uprisings against the Turks (which were largely orchestrated by the British) had, as their primary component, a religious basis. 

[Brasscasing]

I am not talking about today.  I am referring to the PLO's acts in the 1970's.  Please find me one source that refers to the religious undertones of their terrorism.

Please find me one source that doesn't refer to the religious undertones of the Arab/Israeli conflict...

Arab–Israeli conflict

..."Territory regarded by the Jewish people as their historical homeland is also regarded by the Pan-Arab movement as historically and currently belonging to the Palestinians,[12] and in the Pan-Islamic context, as Muslim lands."...

..."The Land of Canaan or Eretz Yisrael (Land of Israel) was, according to the Hebrew Bible, promised by God to the Children of Israel. This is also mentioned in the Qur'an."...

..."Muslims also claim rights to that land in accordance with the Quran."...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab%E2%80%93Israeli_conflict#Religious_aspects_of_the_conflict

Arab-Israel, Palestinian - Israeli or Muslim versus the West?

..."It is not always easy to untangle these different motifs either in popular thinking about the conflict or in policy decisions of governments. It is fair to say that over the years the conflict over Palestine-Israel has evolved from an Arab-Jewish conflict into a Palestinian - Israeli or Palestinian-Jewish conflict and a Muslim-Jewish conflict. It would be foolhardy, however, to ignore the existence of a genuine conflict between the Arab countries and the West that has only a peripheral relation to the Palestinian issue, or to dismiss aspects of the Arab-Zionist and Muslim-Jewish conflict that always existed, were never fully resolved, and may very likely return to the fore after the basic needs and aspirations of the Palestinians are met. We can distinguish several phases:"...

http://www.mideastweb.org/natureofconflict.htm

You're trying to dissociate the very reason as to why the PLO existed in the first place in that the state of Israel was/is viewed by the Arab world as an invader that threatens the Arab/Islamic way of life.

Islam vs. Judaism has always been at the core of the Arab-Israeli conflict and always will be.

Brass

[Gator]

Also made difficult by the text having been written in VIIth-century Arabic, some 1,400 years ago.

Less complex than the original sources of the Bible predating VIIth-C.  Three or four different languages?  I know that you know.

English-speaking Protestants  have widely accepted the King James version and I understand the Catholics have a Latin version.  Is there one version of the Quran accepted by a majority of Muslims?

I don't think so, and even if there is, every Imam is probably free, within wide limits, to offer his own interpretation or that of his 'school' of origin.

I can not find anything about a scholarly review court.  I heard this decades ago from a UN-colleague who spoke as if he knew everything (never in doubt, as sometimes see here at RWD). 

Many Imams operating in non-Muslim countries are funded by the ultraconservative ad-Da'wa al-Wahhābiya (Wahhabi Mission) of Saudi Arabia..

 

Perhaps not much different than some Christian  missionaries.  Yesterday, I mentioned the ultraconservative Wahhabi as predecessors  of ISIS.  After about 80 years of conquest,  Muslims eventually crushed them and ended further military conflicts.

A few have been expelled from UE countries in the past for their too-radical preachings or suspicions of harbouring real/potential terrorist among their brethren.   After Paris, this is likely to increase .

Great!   A price will be paid as this will be controversial with strong implications. 

[Gator]

Read what I actually wrote.  There were virtually no radicalized Muslims before 1979.

Depends upon your definition of radicalized.  If you mean ultraconservative religious beliefs  and committed to armed conquest to spread their word, please google:

                                                    WAHABBI MISSION

The movement started more than 200 years before 1979.  ISIS has many parallels with Wahabbi Mission.   Today is has a population of 4 million.

[Gator]

In response to a post by Mendy saying Muslim outcries against Muslim terrorism are "rare"

No, it's not.  You just don't see reports from countries outside your normal orbit.

Yesterday, in Turkey  a "Moment of Silence" preceded the Turkey-Greece soccer match attended by the leaders of both countries.  Rather than silence, a large number of fans chanted Allah Akbar. 

Maybe a vast majority of Muslims are peaceful, yet this says otherwise.

Boos were also heard.  Were they booing those who disrupted?  I think not because anything other than silence is disrespectful.  Some contend the boos were from people who were upset that no moment of silence was observed for Ankara bombings. 

What do you say Mr. Kiwi?   It occurred in a country outside our normal orbits.  A member of NATO.  A country with a very large army not many miles from ISIS. 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-3322708/Turkey-supporters-boo-minute-s-silence-victims-Paris-attacks-prior-team-s-friendly-against-Greece-Istanbul.html

[Boethius]

Please find me one source that doesn't refer to the religious undertones of the Arab/Israeli conflict...

Arab–Israeli conflict

..."Territory regarded by the Jewish people as their historical homeland is also regarded by the Pan-Arab movement as historically and currently belonging to the Palestinians,[12] and in the Pan-Islamic context, as Muslim lands."...

..."The Land of Canaan or Eretz Yisrael (Land of Israel) was, according to the Hebrew Bible, promised by God to the Children of Israel. This is also mentioned in the Qur'an."...

..."Muslims also claim rights to that land in accordance with the Quran."...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab%E2%80%93Israeli_conflict#Religious_aspects_of_the_conflict

Arab-Israel, Palestinian - Israeli or Muslim versus the West?

..."It is not always easy to untangle these different motifs either in popular thinking about the conflict or in policy decisions of governments. It is fair to say that over the years the conflict over Palestine-Israel has evolved from an Arab-Jewish conflict into a Palestinian - Israeli or Palestinian-Jewish conflict and a Muslim-Jewish conflict. It would be foolhardy, however, to ignore the existence of a genuine conflict between the Arab countries and the West that has only a peripheral relation to the Palestinian issue, or to dismiss aspects of the Arab-Zionist and Muslim-Jewish conflict that always existed, were never fully resolved, and may very likely return to the fore after the basic needs and aspirations of the Palestinians are met. We can distinguish several phases:"...

http://www.mideastweb.org/natureofconflict.htm

You're trying to dissociate the very reason as to why the PLO existed in the first place in that the state of Israel was/is viewed by the Arab world as an invader that threatens the Arab/Islamic way of life.

Islam vs. Judaism has always been at the core of the Arab-Israeli conflict and always will be.

Brass

I disagree, in that it isn't Islam which drives, or drove, the PLO.   There are Palestinian Christians in the PLO.  They certainly can't be accused of adhering to Islamic principles.  The Palestinian-Israeli conflict has always been about land.  No different than most wars of the past fought in Europe.

[Slumba]

Show me where the Arab uprisings against the Turks (which were largely orchestrated by the British) had, as their primary component, a religious basis.

You're setting a standard that can't be measured or quantified, given that so many times in the Islamic world the political and the religious power is one and the same.
 

[Boethius]

All I am asking is to give me the examples, before 1979, of Wahhibists who were off blowing people up in suicide bombings, of invoking mass casualties through terrorist actions.

[Boethius]

[jone]

I find it very improbable that polling would work well in a Muslim country. 

[Boethius]

I don't.  I think the problematic countries are not included.

[jone]

Oh, so you think that a jihadist is going to tell a polling agency that they are on jihad?  Or that they support jihad? 

Get a grip.

[Boethius]

People who view ISIS positively likely would give an "I don't know" answer, rather than unfavourable.


I believe the responses in both Jordan and Lebanon, as they are strained by Syrian refugees.  The turning point in Jordan was burning alive the Jordanian pilot, as that is contrary to Islam.

[jone]

People who view ISIS positively likely would give an "I don't know" answer, rather than unfavourable.


I believe the responses in both Jordan and Lebanon, as they are strained by Syrian refugees.  The turning point in Jordan was burning alive the Jordanian pilot, as that is contrary to Islam.

I don't know why we're at odds today, but it is humorous. 

Okay, I have lived in a Muslim country.  I was in one as well only three weeks ago.  From my own experience, I know that most people in these countries that I have met hold their opinions close to their vests.  Especially about something as controversial as ISIS.  Pardon me for not believing your poll.  But I just don't think public (or private) polling works very will in Muslim countries. 

[Brasscasing]

I disagree, in that it isn't Islam which drives, or drove, the PLO.   There are Palestinian Christians in the PLO.  They certainly can't be accused of adhering to Islamic principles.  The Palestinian-Israeli conflict has always been about land.  No different than most wars of the past fought in Europe.

It is Islam at the heart of all things Arab, Bo.

There are Muslim soldiers in Western Armies. There are always exceptions to the rule.

Well, take that thought to it's logical conclusion then...Why is the Palestinian-Israeli conflict about land?

Because to the Muslims/Arabs, Israel is Waqf - Land that according to Islamic Law (Quran) is a religious trust.

No matter how you slice it, it boils down to Religion. Western scholars/media/those that sympathize with the Palestinian cause have endeavored to remove religion from the equation for western consumption because they believe it assists in the peace process but to the Arabs/Muslims they believe Allah gave them that land and the Israeli's believe the land is theirs (God promised Israel to Abraham). This has been and will continue to be a battle of opposing religions.

"No different than most wars of the past fought in Europe." - Well, not quite...but maybe a debate for another time.

Brass

 

[Gator]

All I am asking is to give me the examples, before 1979, of Wahhibists who were off blowing people up in suicide bombings, of invoking mass casualties through terrorist actions.

I must be missing the point.  There are different subtopics spinning off from the Paris attacks.  I asked you earlier today about your definition of  radicalized Muslims, because you claim none existed before the Soviets entered Afghanistan (BTW, the Soviets did not invade; they were invited by the Afghan government).  You do not know (nor care),  but I am experimenting with  a radical golf swing, so am I a radicalized golfer? 

As an example of radicalized Muslim, I mentioned the Wahhabi, an ultraconservative religious Muslim movement.   I could not find any accounts of suicide, as it seems they kept fighting until they killed everyone or were killed.   And in those days, IEDs were not a weapon, so no bombs.   Nevertheless, the Wahhabi certainly killed non-believers in mass numbers. 

One atrocious example was in 1802 when they ransacked the city Karbala in what today is  Iraq.  The Wahhabi  killed thousands of inhabitants.  Here are two eyewitness accounts:

 "They put everything to fire and sword…The elderly, women, and children—everybody died by the barbarians’ sword. Besides, it is said that whenever they saw a pregnant woman, they disemboweled her and left the fetus on the mother’s bleeding corpse. "

They "scaled the walls, entered the city ... and killed the majority of its people in the markets and in their homes..."  Repeat:  "in the markets and in their homes."  This is murder, not battle casualties nor collateral damage.  They knocked down the front door of homes, rushed in and killed everyone to include the elderly, women and children.  .   

http://interfaithunityagainstterrorism.wordpress.com/2014/08/04/the-wahhabi-sack-of-karbala-1802-a-d/

BTW, the author says this was as much about "religious zeal" as plundering riches.  I can give you even earlier accounts of Muslim slaughters.  However, I await your response as to whether this addresses you point, whatever that is.   

[Gator]

CNN today interviewed Jonathan Sacks.  He is the former Chief Rabbi of Britain, and a prolific theological author.  In October 2015 his most recent book was released entitled: 

                            NOT IN GOD's NAME:  CONFRONTING RELIGIOUS VIOLENCE. 

http://www.rabbisacks.org/not-in-gods-name/

This eloquent book is highly acclaimed,  and most timely considering the rise of ISIS. 

Some at RWD  have argued the liberal message, namely  the attacks in Paris were not about religion.  Sacks stated "ISIS is a religious movement."  He explained to murder someone and express "Allah Akbar" is a religious act. 

Before anyone criticizes me for continuing this discussion, I assert if we do not understand the roots of ISIS and what motivates ISIS, we will not be able to stop the recruiting of new jihadists much less prevent ISIS from attacking the West. 

Rabbi Sacks traces  the historical roots of ISIS  to the 19th C and beyond.    He "shows that religiously inspired violence has as its source misreadings of biblical texts at the heart of all three Abrahamic faiths." 

Before anyone mistakenly thinks Sacks is anti-Islam, he  respects Islam, citing many examples such as the centuries when Jews, Christians and Muslims lived together in peace under Muslim rule in Spain. 

He said he is not optimistic about the future, yet as anyone with "real faith" he has hope.