Financial responibility of a future spouses welfare and social services question

[alex330]

Exactly, russian women know nothing about how our divorce courts work. You say prenup, she thinks to herself, "i don't care, i will make this work". she has no idea if a prenup could not hold up in court.

Exactly. We have watched a number of RW go through this. They try to save the family and think they can hold it together. Meanwhile they don't call the police if there is domestic abuse, fail to file paperwork, and the guy rakes them over the coals with his high paid attorney.

[treadmilldude]

52, I'm with you. You have to realize that many (not all) of these guys don't have sufficient assets to worry about losing, many don't have to worry about a woman pretending to love them for their money. Many of these guys don't understand that a woman can and will convincingly put on a charade of love for years so they can retire off your dime. A beautiful foreign bride, is nothing more than a fantasy and delusion for a lot of these guys (once again, not all). Lastly, many of the guys on here are probably so pathetic and fat that a woman would be entitled to 1/2 of everything for putting up with them.

A woman doesn't automatically deserve a 6 figure income for the rest and remainder of her life because she tricked me into being married to her for 5-10 years. And no for the guys that are going to attack me for this, I do not believe that I can with 100% certainty know that a woman isn't going to marry me for money with plans to leave me.  Sorry, a pretty face and skinny waist is nice but its not sufficient to entitle a woman to a retirement she didn't work for. Seriously, why should a women get a nice life when she didn't work? 8 years of school, 4 years of residency 30 hour long shifts, night shifts, on call ect. and she gets half for simply saying I do? Bullshit, protect your money it is your. Marriage does not have to be am equal partnership monetarily. Do not be tricked into believing that you must accept someone else's definition of "marriage"

Lastly, here is something many do not consider. I have friends with prenups, even on where the woman asked the man to sign one. In many cases it improves teh marriage. People know where they stand, they know its not about the money, the wondering and the resentment, the doubt is gone.

OK Mr. Kind, Caring, empathetic MD with the wonderful bedside manner, you say myself and others here are fat and pathetic. OK, I will accept that you think I am fat and pathetic. But if you are going to accuse myself and other men of looking like roadkill, you need to post a picture of yourself so we can all admire your physique and agree with you that you are a very handsome man with a body like Zeus. Otherwise, methinks you yourself are, in fact, overweight and not very attractive. Most Doctors I have known (I lived with a Psychiatrist for 2 years, from 2002 to 2004) are quite humble and do not have a huge ego. But there are a few like you, who do not make the profession look all that great.

I posted a second picture of myself right here. I know you think I am fat and pathetic, and that is fine with me. I accept that I am fat and pathetic. So you need to post a couple pics of yourself right now, Mr. Empathetic MD.

[dragonkid]

Great, now redking thinks we all look 60.

[BillyB]

I am a big fan of a prenup, but my only issue is when someone does not want to give $50k to his ex wife. I would do that, even if it was less than a year,

You may think you're being generous offering 50k for less than a year marriage but a soon to be ex may look at your offer with suspicion and think you're trying to get one over her. She may then get an attorney and go after everything with you having to pay for her attorney and your attorney if she's not working.

If you want to see how ugly people can get, just watch them when their relationship is breaking up. No matter how nice and generous you try to be, you will be the enemy and the enemy must go down hard. Unfortunately most breakups are hostile rather than amicable.

[dragonkid]

You may think you're being generous offering 50k for less than a year marriage but a soon to be ex may look at your offer with suspicion and think you're trying to get one over her. She may then get an attorney and go after everything with you having to pay for her attorney and your attorney if she's not working.

If you want to see how ugly people can get, just watch them when their relationship is breaking up. No matter how nice and generous you try to be, you will be the enemy and the enemy must go down hard. Unfortunately most breakups are hostile rather than amicable.

You are right, i just saw one woman who took a $800k family home, and left the other guys $5m+ assets in a marriage that lasted 15 years with kids. I wouldn't expect anybody to be fair on both sides, very rare. i just wish prenups stop guys from going on the cheap, and make prenups more solid.

[BC]

You are right, i just saw one woman who took a $800k family home, and left the other guys $5m+ assets in a marriage that lasted 15 years with kids. I wouldn't expect anybody to be fair on both sides, stop guys from going on the cheap, and make prenups more solid.

For a 15 year marriage and in consideration how much of the assets was earned during that period 800k lump sum plus home may well have been equitable, even cheap.

One think is fairly sure, acceptable prenuptial agreements will rarely allow less than the law does.   

[dragonkid]

For a 15 year marriage and in consideration how much of the assets was earned during that period 800k lump sum plus home may well have been equitable, even cheap.

One think is fairly sure, acceptable prenuptial agreements will rarely allow less than the law does.

There was no prenup, she just wanted somewhere to live,and took the home which was worth $800k.  she knew she would have got a lot more, but she didn't want it, her family called her an idiot for it. I never came across another woman who just took the smaller slice, she filed the divorce, maybe lost her love for him, and didn't want to hurt him further. He earnt the money, so she maybe saw how hard he worked for it, and felt like it was more his than hers. I know some guys who write a prenup on a napkin and expect the woman to follow through if they get a divorce.

[2tallbill]

Ahhh that's really the question isn't it? What is fair? There are so many ways and angles to view that pickle. Some will say 50% of the assets that you accumulate while married is the only fair thing. Others will view it by what did this woman gain and lose by entering into this failed marriage? That gets more tricky. She gained much. An AM probably gave her a much improved lifestyle during their years of marriage, not only monetarily but emotionally and socially. What is that worth? What did the woman lose? retirement savings?, educational training, job experience = earning potential.

Life isn't fair, especially when talking about divorce. Laws regarding divorce are regulated
by the state, and has laws and professionals that are experts in those laws. What might
apply to you in your state won't apply to Bob in Bakersfield, Carl in Connecticut and
Tom in Tallahassee  because they each have different laws.

[2tallbill]

For a 15 year marriage and in consideration how much of the assets was earned during that period 800k lump sum plus home may well have been equitable, even cheap.

One think is fairly sure, acceptable prenuptial agreements will rarely allow less than the law does.

If a guy only had to toss a woman a $100K any time he got tired of her he could 
toss out his old wife and get a new sportier model. The old wife possibly gave up
a career to raise the children enabling the husband to spend more time building
his career. It's a division of labor and responsibilities during a marriage. He made
the money and she scraped the pots and pans and mopped up the vomit and wiped
the snotty noses at 2:00 am when the kids got sick. 

Life isn't fair. If a guy wants a prenup to be valid then he needs to seek professional
advice in his locale. If he hires cheap advice, he might get cheap advice. The free
advice here is worth more than nothing but doesn't come close to getting real
experts involved. I could probably set his arm if he broke it, and he might be slightly
better off than leaving it untreated (or not) but my advice would be to get somebody
more skilled, trained and experienced than me to do it.

Udachi!


Bill

[pitbull]

Ahhh that's really the question isn't it? What is fair? There are so many ways and angles to view that pickle. Some will say 50% of the assets that you accumulate while married is the only fair thing. Others will view it by what did this woman gain and lose by entering into this failed marriage? That gets more tricky. She gained much. An AM probably gave her a much improved lifestyle during their years of marriage, not only monetarily but emotionally and socially. What is that worth? What did the woman lose? retirement savings?, educational training, job experience = earning potential.

In my view, and I admit I know almost nothing of the educational and employment opportunities in the Ukraine, most of these women won't have lost much earning potential or retirement savings during 10 years of marriage to an AM and I would think about $45,000 - $60,000 should be sufficient (depending on her education and work experience a woman with a professional degree would have lost more than a gas station attendant). Hate me all you want but I do not believe that a woman should be entitled to 1/2 of all of a man's assets for saying "I do". The outcomes would be unfair not only for the man but for other women. First the man's pre-marriage work/education is what allows him to earn his income in the first place. So the income is a result of pre-marriage investment (which a woman isn't normally entitled to, yet our courts ignore the fact that earning potential is often a product of pre-marriage investments).  Second, why should one women married to a millionaire get so much more than a woman married to an average joe? Is the millionaire wife's 10 years worth more than average joe's life? and how many of these Ukrainian women are not calculating and intentional? How many do not measure their looks, their age, their brains and calculate what quality of man in terms of attractiveness and wealth they can secure? I think these women see it as more of a business transaction that many of the men on here realize.

So you think 1/2 of assets accumulated during a 10-year marriage is NOT a fair share that a woman is entitled to after the divorce. What IS fair in your mind? Let's say you marry a beautiful young RW, stay married for 10 years and get divorced. What should she receive?

Another question  - how much are you willing to invest in your new RW wife during the marriage? Will you pay for a good education? Let's say a Bachelors at a good university plus two years of professional degree (up to $200K altogether)?

What are you offering?

[redking11]

OK Mr. Kind, Caring, empathetic MD with the wonderful bedside manner, you say myself and others here are fat and pathetic. OK, I will accept that you think I am fat and pathetic. But if you are going to accuse myself and other men of looking like roadkill, you need to post a picture of yourself so we can all admire your physique and agree with you that you are a very handsome man with a body like Zeus. Otherwise, methinks you yourself are, in fact, overweight and not very attractive. Most Doctors I have known (I lived with a Psychiatrist for 2 years, from 2002 to 2004) are quite humble and do not have a huge ego. But there are a few like you, who do not make the profession look all that great.

I posted a second picture of myself right here. I know you think I am fat and pathetic, and that is fine with me. I accept that I am fat and pathetic. So you need to post a couple pics of yourself right now, Mr. Empathetic MD.

What is your problem? Would you mind pointing out where I called you fat specifically? Because I would love to point out in my post where is very intentionally and repeatedly put in parenthesis : "many not all" You being offended was a personal and deliberate choice. I didn't offend you you chose to be. BTW are you insecure about your income or profession? because you sure like to use mine against me.

[LiveFromUkraine]

What is your problem? Would you mind pointing out where I called you fat specifically? Because I would love to point out in my post where is very intentionally and repeatedly put in parenthesis : "many not all" You being offended was a personal and deliberate choice. I didn't offend you you chose to be. BTW are you insecure about your income or profession? because you sure like to use mine against me.

He was more than likely addressing your sad excuse for rationalization.   I think you would be very surprised at the amount of successful men on this site.


You wouldn't know that because it isn't what we lead conversations with.  Maybe that is why some of us don't have the same issues with women that you do.

[redking11]

If a man is as concerned with preserving his assets as you are, no, he likely did not give her much emotionally and socially during the marriage.  What did she lose?  She lost seeing the rocks in her life - her family and friends - on a daily basis.

I agree anything acquired before the marriage should be exempt from matrimonial claims.  I also could go for any appreciation on those assets being exempt, though in the absence of a pre nup, the law will divide that growth 50/50.  But you dismiss the fact that having a wife also brings value to your life, value which also means you can go out and earn a good income and increase your asset base.  That includes, usually, having someone cook and clean for you, raise your children, and make your life generally function more efficiently.   

Marriage is about building a life together.  Going into a marriage with the premise that you are providing all the benefits, and your imported wife is just receiving those benefits because she comes from a poor country is arrogant.  It commodifies Ukrainian women.  It is something my husband has said is the impetus for many AM going to Ukraine, to "buy the cheapest product", and why he finds it distasteful.   

With your mindset, you may be better off hiring domestic help to deal with your home, a psychologist to deal with your emotional needs,  and a prostitute to deal with your sexual needs.  That way, you can be assured that you preserve your assets to their maximum growth potential.

There are some very twisted views on this forum, views that I know be false because I have seen the exact opposite in real life. Asking your spouse to sign a prenup, desiring to protect a greater percentage of your assets from a former partner than your state's default laws would provide does not mean you don't love your wife, it doesn't mean you wont respect her, or invest time, money and emotion into her to make the marriage work. Asking your future spouse to sign a pre-nup means that you are adult enough to realize that most relationships in this world do not last until death, and many go sour despite best efforts, or you may have children from prior relationships that you want to give a greater percentage of your assets to, than state law provides for. So once again, a pre-nup does not make you a greedy SOB out to use and abuse a woman and doomed to a failed relationship, because I've seen too many examples to the contrary.

[redking11]

For a 15 year marriage and in consideration how much of the assets was earned during that period 800k lump sum plus home may well have been equitable, even cheap.

One think is fairly sure, acceptable prenuptial agreements will rarely allow less than the law does.

I'm pretty sure, in fact positive is that the whole point of a prenup is to ensure that the wife gets less than a state's default laws would provide. That's the whole point of a prenup, so millionaires can marry models without the model turning around and divorcing them and raking in the money.

[Boethius]

There are some very twisted views on this forum, views that I know be false because I have seen the exact opposite in real life. Asking your spouse to sign a prenup, desiring to protect a greater percentage of your assets from a former partner than your state's default laws would provide does not mean you don't love your wife, it doesn't mean you wont respect her, or invest time, money and emotion into her to make the marriage work. Asking your future spouse to sign a pre-nup means that you are adult enough to realize that most relationships in this world do not last until death, and many go sour despite best efforts, or you may have children from prior relationships that you want to give a greater percentage of your assets to, than state law provides for. So once again, a pre-nup does not make you a greedy SOB out to use and abuse a woman and doomed to a failed relationship, because I've seen too many examples to the contrary.

.

My post was not about prenups. It was about your attitude.

[redking11]

So you think 1/2 of assets accumulated during a 10-year marriage is NOT a fair share that a woman is entitled to after the divorce. What IS fair in your mind? Let's say you marry a beautiful young RW, stay married for 10 years and get divorced. What should she receive?

Another question  - how much are you willing to invest in your new RW wife during the marriage? Will you pay for a good education? Let's say a Bachelors at a good university plus two years of professional degree (up to $200K altogether)?

What are you offering?

Sure, I;d pay for her education, sounds wonderful. but of my almost $300k annual income, no, I don't think she is entitled to $150 for 10 years. sorry. Why does she deserve $150 a year? WTF did she do that the woman who married the guy only making $70k didnt? Will my wife bring me more joy or provide more services, smarter children, better cooked food, better conversation that the wife married to the $70k guy?

Please someone explain to me with a logical argument why a woman married to a man (not me) (keep this rational) who spent years of his life in training and educational investment should give a women at divorce, 1. more money than she needs, 2. more money than she would have had if she hadn't married him and 3. more money than a women divorcing a guy with a more average income? Explain to me that rational reason why 1/2 is a reasonable, rational and fair benchmark. If you can't put together a logical answer then please don't respond.

[redking11]

.

My post was not about prenups. It was about your attitude.

I wasn't responding to your post, it's not always about you despite what you think

[Boethius]

Uh, when you quote my post you are, in fact, responding to it.  That's how forums work.

[redking11]

He was more than likely addressing your sad excuse for rationalization.   I think you would be very surprised at the amount of successful men on this site.


You wouldn't know that because it isn't what we lead conversations with.  Maybe that is why some of us don't have the same issues with women that you do.

I'm new here, but let me say something. I came here to get information, not opinions. I came here to learn which sites to use, which agencies, learn about tours or how to go it alone, maybe even prenup information, what cities are best to travel to, solid information. I didn't come here for therapy, I didn't come here for counseling. I didn't come here for relationship advice. No one here is qualified to give advice or tell another guy his marriage will fail, or that he is greedy, because even if you were a licensed counselor, you don't know anyone well enough about someone from reading a few gargled posts to offer sound advice. So with all due respect, all of you people on the forum, lecturing the rest of us about our views toward women need to stop, its not your business, its not your place, your opinion isn't valid and no gives a rat's ass. Stick to topics and keep your tendencies to lecture others on what you perceive to be shortcomings to yourself. This is a forum not church. This thread was supposed to be about what the law was on a man's obligation to support a RW if he brought her over, and maybe what affect a prenup could have. IT was never supposed to be about your opinion of the ethical or moral, or physiological ramifications of prenups.  Who do some of you think you are. With that said, I want to apologize for allowing myself to get off topic as well by getting into the "what is fair" realm. That was my opinion, and no one asked for it.

[LiveFromUkraine]

I'm new here, but let me say something. I came here to get information, not opinions. I came here to learn which sites to use, which agencies, learn about tours or how to go it alone, maybe even prenup information, what cities are best to travel to, solid information. I didn't come here for therapy, I didn't come here for counseling. I didn't come here for relationship advice. No one here is qualified to give advice or tell another guy his marriage will fail, or that he is greedy, because even if you were a licensed counselor, you don't know anyone well enough about someone from reading a few gargled posts to offer sound advice. So with all due respect, all of you people on the forum, lecturing the rest of us about our views toward women need to stop, its not your business, its not your place, your opinion isn't valid and no gives a rat's ass. Stick to topics and keep your tendencies to lecture others on what you perceive to be shortcomings to yourself. This is a forum not church. This thread was supposed to be about what the law was on a man's obligation to support a RW if he brought her over, and maybe what affect a prenup could have. IT was never supposed to be about your opinion of the ethical or moral, or physiological ramifications of prenups.  Who do some of you think you are. With that said, I want to apologize for allowing myself to get off topic as well by getting into the "what is fair" realm. That was my opinion, and no one asked for it.

lol  Sorry, son, but I will post what I want to post.  You are in no position to dictate how others respond to what you post.   The more you get comfortable knowing you can't control people, the better luck you will have with women.   

[redking11]

Uh, when you quote my post you are, in fact, responding to it.  That's how forums work.

You said this: "If a man is as concerned with preserving his assets as you are, no, he likely did not give her much emotionally and socially during the marriage.  What did she lose?  She lost seeing the rocks in her life - her family and friends - on a daily basis"

Preservation of assets would include prenups. You didn't refer to them directly but you pretty much said that someone who desires to preserve his assets "likely did not give her much emotionally or socially during the marriage" My whole point was that I heartily disagree that protecting one's assets (including the use of a prenup) means that you will not give a woman much emotionally or socially.  That is an assumption, a generalization and one as I said I know to be false because I have seen many great long lasting marriages where one spouse or the other took steps to protect their money. You are sharing your opinion, a very false one.

[redking11]

lol  Sorry, son, but I will post what I want to post.  You are in no position to dictate how others respond to what you post.   The more you get comfortable knowing you can't control people, the better luck you will have with women.   

And that's fine, you are right, I can't control what you post, but if you plan to continue going around sharing your unwanted opinion about how a guy you never met is an asshole or a misogynist or is doomed to fail, ect because he wants a prenup or thinks this or believes that, who is really the asshole?

[LiveFromUkraine]

And that's fine, you are right, I can't control what you post, but if you plan to continue going around sharing your unwanted opinion about how a guy you never met is an asshole or a misogynist or is doomed to fail, ect because he wants a prenup or thinks this or believes that, who is really the asshole?

Where did I call you an asshole or misogynist?  Links would be great.

[redking11]

Where did I call you an asshole or misogynist?  Links would be great.

You never said I was an asshole or misogynist, (though I wouldn't put it past you), you did say I have issues with women, you don't know that, you haven't met me. If you think someone has issues with women simply because they want to protect their assets, then that is your opinion, but your wrong. Do I have issues with women. I'm divorced, of course I have some! but you don't know the extent or the issues, Once again is it your place? Hell no, and your an asshole for going there. Can I stop you from being an jerk? No.  Do you see me calling you stupid for not wanting to protect your assets? No! Why? because "to each his own", "live and let live" I'm not here to lecture you on how to live your life and what is right and what is wrong. Why are you?

[HoundDaddyLee]

lol  Sorry, son, but I will post what I want to post.  You are in no position to dictate how others respond to what you post.   The more you get comfortable knowing you can't control people, the better luck you will have with women.   

I will pile on here to LFU post. Most of what folks have written here is good "information" and it may also be opinion. Information and opinion are not mutually exclusive. You just don't like the info you are receiving. You did not come on here asking about tours, cities,etc. You came on asking if someone (you) making $350K a year can land a smoking hot kova. And you want to land said girl and then if she ejects from the relationship you want your ass(ets) covered. You have implied we are all a bunch of rednecked yokels who have no assets to protect. You entered on "flame" and got it back, in spades.


So here are a couple of answers for your "information"
- Tours (bad)
- Cities (join a membership site, not PPL. Meet some ladies and let that be your guide to where you visit. I love Odessa, but not a great place as there are many scammers)
- Read this site, especially 2TallBills trip reports. There is a lot to learn from other successes and failures.


Stop worrying about prenups, etc. Just enjoy the adventure, find love and happiness.


HDL