communication question

[jone]

If a woman from Ukraine uses the 'Real Man' insult, it is time to run for the hills.  I don't care who the man or the woman is.  She is not marriagable material in my book. 

Billy, you've made up various different scenarios that have nothing to do with this couple and their Skype comments.  Time to drop the bone in your mouth.  You have way overstayed your welcome on this topic. 

As a side note, I happen to know both the man and the woman.  I wouldn't touch her with a ten foot pole. But you saw that statement from me earlier in this thread, even before I knew who they were and before she had made the 'Real Man' insult.

[Trenchcoat]

If a woman from Ukraine uses the 'Real Man' insult, it is time to run for the hills.  I don't care who the man or the woman is.  She is not marriagable material in my book. 

The woman I saw, in Nikolaev that ended at the end of the first date, well she had said to me that a 'Real Man' would come and visit her in Nikolaev rather than get her to go to Odessa. I said I would pay her travel costs if she went to Odessa, that it was only fair as I was travelling all the way from the UK. She said it would be putting her health, etc at risk by travelling, I said how so as would be in a train/coach with others. In the end she sort of relented, but managed to bring me back around to travelling to see her in Nikolaev. I thought it would be interesting to see what the place was like though knew it would take time off my holiday in travel time. So, guess it was a red flag, I wondered if she was being too arbitrary for it to be good news but was an interesting personality I guess, some of the shock expressed in her email replies was quite funny.

Anyway, I like a Real Woman

[BillyB]

If a woman from Ukraine uses the 'Real Man' insult, it is time to run for the hills.  I don't care who the man or the woman is.  She is not marriagable material in my book. 

Billy, you've made up various different scenarios that have nothing to do with this couple and their Skype comments.  Time to drop the bone in your mouth.  You have way overstayed your welcome on this topic. 

As a side note, I happen to know both the man and the woman.  I wouldn't touch her with a ten foot pole. But you saw that statement from me earlier in this thread, even before I knew who they were and before she had made the 'Real Man' insult.

Says the man who believes a woman should move heaven and earth for a man after two weeks of Skype.

The woman I saw, in Nikolaev that ended at the end of the first date, well she had said to me that a 'Real Man' would come and visit her in Nikolaev rather than get her to go to Odessa.

Good for you that you didn't get your feelings hurt over what some perceive as an insult or manipulation to visit her in her city.

[Faux Pas]

FP, when someone new on this forum doesn't like your advice delivered in your usual abrasive manner and announces he's leaving, you're the first to accuse the guy of having thin skin and won't get far with RW. Apparently you would take offence to a RW using the "Real Man" argument when you do something wrong, accuse her of being a narcissist wanting the world to revolve around her. Could it be you have the thinnest skin of us all? Relax and take a chill pill.

Well I suppose I could have but the facts wouldn't really bare that out but, that does nothing to keep you on topic does it, Billy? You keep using your wild ass imagination to come up with one scenario after another that has nothing whatsoever to do with dude's situation in an attempt to argue a moot point. Stay on point Billy. Just the fact that the woman used the line "real man" equates her to something your likely familiar with and found at your nearest trailer park.

You look foolish arguing this Billy but, I'll go as long as you will. 

You find me abrasive? I am sincerely shocked and ashamed

[jone]

Says the man who believes a woman should move heaven and earth for a man after two weeks of Skype.

Good for you that you didn't get your feelings hurt over what some perceive as an insult or manipulation to visit her in her city.

Looks like you're ready to take on the whole forum from your indefensible position.  I believe in common courtesy, something this lady is without.  But, please, if you know her tendencies so well, have at it.  You continue to make a fool of yourself.

I explained that I know who the woman is and that the forum's assessment of her is correct.  You, on the other hand, know nothing about her - but tell everyone that the individual shorted her and left her out in the cold.  That is about as far out on a limb as you can be.  Good luck with that.

[Trenchcoat]

Good for you that you didn't get your feelings hurt over what some perceive as an insult or manipulation to visit her in her city.

Thanks I'll make sure the girl does some travelling next time, just keep it contained time wise/distance wise so I don't get any holiday whores, I think that is why I agreed to her city, never mind.

Though, the first one I am wondering now if I gave too much without making a move more firmly on her as I here women in Ukraine can be pretty passive even if they are into you and if they can get stuff easily from you without you making a forward move then they may see you as easily taken and not strong enough. Well, live and learn I guess.

[BillyB]

I explained that I know who the woman is.

Big deal. If you don't bring out the facts on her, then your facts don't exist with the rest of us. All we got is what Larry put out there. She was late and apologized and when the guy gave her the silent treatment, she said a real man wouldn't be bothered with little things. Seems to me a lot of guys here would get their feelings hurt and consider what happened grounds for divorce.

[jone]

They weren't married.  But then, you created this whole scenario in your mind.  To you they probably were.

[Boethius]

The woman I saw, in Nikolaev that ended at the end of the first date, well she had said to me that a 'Real Man' would come and visit her in Nikolaev rather than get her to go to Odessa. I said I would pay her travel costs if she went to Odessa, that it was only fair as I was travelling all the way from the UK. She said it would be putting her health, etc at risk by travelling, I said how so as would be in a train/coach with others. In the end she sort of relented, but managed to bring me back around to travelling to see her in Nikolaev. I thought it would be interesting to see what the place was like though knew it would take time off my holiday in travel time. So, guess it was a red flag, I wondered if she was being too arbitrary for it to be good news but was an interesting personality I guess, some of the shock expressed in her email replies was quite funny.

As soon as she used the term "real man", you should have said thank you for your time and moved on.  It has a certain connotation in Ukraine, and is used by the lowest levels of their society (in terms of attitude).  So, unless you want to hook up with a yob, move on.

Anyway, I like a Real Woman

No, you probably don't.  At least, not the way a Ukrainian would understand that term. 

[BillyB]

They weren't married. 

Does it matter? Everybody who uses the term "real man" are manipulative and low lifes right? I don't care if it's my wife or someone I didn't meet, if they miss a couple of meetings and apologize, I don't let it bother me. If I did let it bother me, act like a child and give them the silent treatment, I deserve every bad word that comes out of their mouth.

As soon as she used the term "real man", you should have said thank you for your time and moved on.  It has a certain connotation in Ukraine, and is used by the lowest levels of their society (in terms of attitude).  So, unless you want to hook up with a yob, move on.

When was the last time you've dated? 20+ years have past and times have changed. Go through thousands of women's profiles and you'll see some of them saying they're looking for a real man and define what a real man is to them. It's nothing bad and they use words a high class person can be proud of. Should pay attention to how "real man" is used instead of labeling everybody who uses it as a low life. Okay, next guy to tell me to "Man Up", you're a lowlife!

[LiveFromUkraine]

Everybody who uses the term "real man" are manipulative and low lifes right?

Billy, using a term like "real man" may have different connotations depending on the culture.  We are talking in terms of Ukraine, not the US.  From what Bo has said, the term is generally used by lower society in Ukraine.  That is cool if you don't mind dating a woman like that, but many men wouldn't.  It isn't to say they are bad people, just people that someone may not be compatible with.   

[BillyB]

We are talking in terms of Ukraine, not the US.

I'm talking in terms of Ukraine too. I've seen enough profiles from women who have high education to understand most women have "real man" meaning "gentleman" and all the qualities associated with it. Remember when being called "Dick" wasn't a bad thing in America? Meanings for words can change for better or worse in any culture.

[LiveFromUkraine]

I'm talking in terms of Ukraine too. I've seen enough profiles from women who have high education to understand most women have "real man" meaning "gentleman" and all the qualities associated with it. Remember when being called "Dick" wasn't a bad thing in America? Meanings for words can change for better or worse in any culture.

I think it depends on the context.  Saying you want a real man could mean you want a guy who will take care of his family.  Now when a women says "you're not a real man unless you act the way I want you to act" is manipulation.  Same as someone saying "if you really loved me you would do...". 


The context between the two is very different.

[jone]

Does it matter? Everybody who uses the term "real man" are manipulative and low lifes right? I don't care if it's my wife or someone I didn't meet, if they miss a couple of meetings and apologize, I don't let it bother me. If I did let it bother me, act like a child and give them the silent treatment, I deserve every bad word that comes out of their mouth.

When was the last time you've dated? 20+ years have past and times have changed. Go through thousands of women's profiles and you'll see some of them saying they're looking for a real man and define what a real man is to them. It's nothing bad and they use words a high class person can be proud of. Should pay attention to how "real man" is used instead of labeling everybody who uses it as a low life. Okay, next guy to tell me to "Man Up", you're a lowlife!

It does matter.  You keep on bringing up divorce.  Look at your response, two above.  You try and give credibility to your argument which is vapor.    If you are being strung along by any woman, you should punt and go on to the next one.  That simple.  If she intentionally insults you, then should not punt, you should run like hell in the other direction. 


************************************************************************************

Beginnings are hard times.  Insensitivity is the immediate earmark of a failed relationship.  She did not immediately apologize.  She strung him along.  Then, after abusing his sensitivities, she deigned to apologize, in a not nice way.  And rather than saying:  Oops.  I really screwed the pooch, can you forgive me and at least be friends?  She said he wasn't a real man. 

While I will let Boe speak for herself, the lady was not using the term 'Real Man' to state what her desires were in a man, she was using the phrase 'real man' as an intended insult.  Surely, even Billy, who would take on all comers, would walk away after being so insulted.  But, then again, maybe he is enough of a lickboot that he would stay around.

[Boethius]

I think it depends on the context.  Saying you want a real man could mean you want a guy who will take care of his family.  Now when a women says "you're not a real man unless you act the way I want you to act" is manipulation.  Same as someone saying "if you really loved me you would do...". 


The context between the two is very different.

The term "real man" has a particular connotation in Ukraine.  It did over 30 years ago when I lived there and married, and it does today, with no change in the connotation.  My better half is a native Kyianin.  He was in Kyiv for a month this summer, and he heard the phrase used by one of his neighbours.  She was a child when he left, and she used to always tell my MIL she would marry my husband when she grew up.  MIL would laugh and tell her he's already married, but she never put 2 and 2 together, as to who I was. Her parents are deceased, both of alcoholism, and she inherited their apartment.  She was telling my husband why she and her husband split, partly because he was not a "real man".  The context was clear.  He laughed at how little things have changed.  So, in short no, the meaning of the term has not changed, nor has the mentality.

As FP pointed out, for those mingling with the types of women who would find a night of taking meth before shooting out windows at the trailer park entertaining, then go for it.  Find that type of woman who seeks a "real man" to complete her life. 

[Boethius]

Billy, using a term like "real man" may have different connotations depending on the culture.  We are talking in terms of Ukraine, not the US.  From what Bo has said, the term is generally used by lower society in Ukraine.  That is cool if you don't mind dating a woman like that, but many men wouldn't.  It isn't to say they are bad people, just people that someone may not be compatible with.   

By "lower" I don't mean a socio-economic class.  It is a mentality.  It has nothing to do with education, either.  Education in much of the FSU doesn't mean much, because it is not tied to accomplishment or, for that matter, brains. 

[LiveFromUkraine]

The term "real man" has a particular connotation in Ukraine.  It did over 30 years ago when I lived there and married, and it does today, with no change in the connotation.  My better half is a native Kyianin.  He was in Kyiv for a month this summer, and he heard the phrase used by one of his neighbours.  She was a child when he left, and she used to always tell my MIL she would marry my husband when she grew up.  MIL would laugh and tell her he's already married, but she never put 2 and 2 together, as to who I was. Her parents are deceased, both of alcoholism, and she inherited their apartment.  She was telling my husband why she and her husband split, partly because he was not a "real man".  The context was clear.  He laughed at how little things have changed.  So, in short no, the meaning of the term has not changed, nor has the mentality.

As FP pointed out, for those mingling with the types of women who would find a night of taking meth before shooting out windows at the trailer park entertaining, then go for it.  Find that type of woman who seeks a "real man" to complete her life.

Interesting.  I know some women use that term to describe a man who works and takes care of his family. I don't think these women want someone to complete them.  They just don't want to fully take care of a family with no help from their partner/husband.  You can see this in the black community.   You will also see this happening more and more in the white communities since many men are dropping out of college while enrollment with women has increased.


It sounds like that context wouldn't apply to Ukraine whatsoever.  This is a great thread for those who want to look overseas.

[LiveFromUkraine]

By "lower" I don't mean a socio-economic class.  It is a mentality.  It has nothing to do with education, either.  Education in much of the FSU doesn't mean much, because it is not tied to accomplishment or, for that matter, brains.

Right, I used lower for lack of a better term.  I was thinking more like "white trash".  I don't think all lower socio-economic people are trashy in behavior.

[Boethius]

There are a lot of cultural nuances that WM miss.  I miss a lot of them too, because I think like a Westerner.  These are peculiar to Soviet Ukrainians, not Ukrainian culture in general.

The other thing to remember is that many times, people from the FSU will not be honest with you.  One of the things FSU individuals will always ask the better half is where he is from, because what they will say to you is contingent on that.  They will say things to Westerners that they won't to someone from there, because they know the latter will know they are lying.  He often says he's from here, because he is.  He doesn't elaborate on where he was born, although if they do ask, he tells them.  It amuses him to hear the tales they spin. 

[Muzh]

1. I think this result is fairly common these days. I've talked to few guys who succeeded with their first relationship.

Edited to add info from him. Both of his parents died and he had to take some time out of his search to address their estates.

2. I don't believe so.

Larry, tell your friend to move on. This one is not a good catch. Regardless of communication barriers or not.

[Muzh]

Does it matter? Everybody who uses the term "real man" are manipulative and low lifes right?

Ouch.


Hope it didn't touch a raw nerve.

[Boethius]

Ouch.


Hope it didn't touch a raw nerve.

 


Right to the heart of the matter.  Touche.   

[BillyB]

  Now when a women says "you're not a real man unless you act the way I want you to act" is manipulation.  Same as someone saying "if you really loved me you would do...". 

If someone acted like a baby with me, I'd have worse things to say to him than "be a real man". The girl used adequate words based on the guys behavior. It doesn't make her marriage material and it doesn't make her a woman that should be dumped.

Surely, even Billy, who would take on all comers, would walk away after being so insulted. 

A month ago I hired a new guy to help a crew put up a keystone block retaining wall. I showed up to the jobsite and didn't like how he was putting the wall together. I told him "Move out of the way, this is how you do it". Later that day another employee told me the new guys said "Who the fukc is that guy? He's an asshole." Didn't bother me. I ask the employee who was reporting the behavior of the new guy to me "All I care about is how he works. Does he do good work? Has he improved?" 

[jone]

If someone acted like a baby with me, I'd have worse things to say to him than "be a real man". The girl used adequate words based on the guys behavior. It doesn't make her marriage material and it doesn't make her a woman that should be dumped.

A month ago I hired a new guy to help a crew put up a keystone block retaining wall. I showed up to the jobsite and didn't like how he was putting the wall together. I told him "Move out of the way, this is how you do it". Later that day another employee told me the new guys said "Who the fukc is that guy? He's an asshole." Didn't bother me. I ask the employee who was reporting the behavior of the new guy to me "All I care about is how he works. Does he do good work? Has he improved?"

This ISN'T a business relationship.  This is a LOVE INTEREST.  You keep on imagining scenarios that are far fetched.  Perhaps other people see  the parallel, but I don't.  The gal was dumping on the guy.  He walked.  I would have walked too.  No addition of cute little anecdotes is going to change what the reality is. 

[Larry1]

Larry, tell your friend to move on. This one is not a good catch. Regardless of communication barriers or not.

He has already moved on.

This turned out to be an interesting thread.