Question for the board regarding living with your SO for a short time in Russia

[ecr844]

Hello Everyone,


   I have been away for awhile, busy working, etc..and plan to finish my TR here soon. I have a question for the group. I am currently looking into and trying to get an idea of the pluses, minuses, and feasability for going back to Voronezh, and living with my significant other for either a one month, and or possibly for as much as 6 months. My questions are as follows. I have read, and heard from some more experienced members here who have had positive anecdotal experiences of spending 'alot' of time with their GF or 'Significant other'before their proposal. I think this makes sense and I am willing to expend the capital and take a 'career hit' to do this. But I am finding that the prices I am being quoted are abit ridiculous. so my questions are these:

1.) What would be a realistic budget for the trip? Do any of you who have done this or recently been help to give me an idea of what is reasonable idea of expenses to do this?
(I ask, because I am being quoted exorbitant prices...$3k/month to stay in a hotel and 3,800/mo for a flat..!!! ) Just as a side note; I'm getting the same price quotes from both my RW and an agency.

2.) Have any of you done this and if so did you find your experience beneficial in the sense that it gave you a better idea as to whether you or your mate were 'more' compatible?

3.) Comments, experiences, and opinions on this? All your replies will help me get an idea of what I should expect.
4.) Recommendations, on do's and or don't of this type of experience for those who have done it?

Thanks for the help,
Eric

[David1963]

I would think the apartments would be $30 p/n and probably even a better deal for the month.  If you are saying your lady is quoting the same prices I would be worried about her agenda.  If you were talking Moscow I could maybe understand but Voronezh.

[Jack]

whoaaaa, $3800 a month for a flat?  In Voronezh!!!!

Eric, something is not right here. How about $350 to $400 a month to be in the center of Voronezh and $175 to $250 away from the center.

Eric I don't know anything about your SO or your situation but I think you have a reason to be concerned.  It's a wonderful idea for you to live there and be close to her for a few months, and after reading what you wrote, you had better spend some time with this woman.

I say you have to by-pass your SO and the agency. Wrote me a PM if you are going to go thru with this and we'll get you a good flat in the center.

[andrewfi]

Unless you have got the decimal points mixed up, or your friend has quoted in Roubles you are being led up the garden path..

so,

1) If your friend (and she may not be!) is really expecting you to fall for this, you already know all you need to know about her.

2) If you are managing to mix up currencies or decimal points on a consistent basis then you are going to need all the time you can get to work on communication and, to get started on knowing each other.

3) If your communication is so poor that simple factual errors are ocurring then do you really want to allocate months of your life to somebody who you do not know at all? Might not a second, shorter visit be more appropriate?

Personally I do not think that it is possible to make such a fundamental cock-up in communication, even with NO shared language skills.
You are being set up like a sheep for shearing.

I bet that your 'friend' has told you that she needs to pay for the apartment in advance, yes?

In general though, what you are suggesting seems to me to be fine. If nothing else you will gain an appreciation of what your friend will go through if she ends up in your home in the US and so you will be better prepared to deal with the inevitable issues.

[Bruno]

1.) What would be a realistic budget for the trip? Do any of you who have done this or recently been help to give me an idea of what is reasonable idea of expenses to do this?
(I ask, because I am being quoted exorbitant prices...$3k/month to stay in a hotel and 3,800/mo for a flat..!!! ) Just as a side note; I'm getting the same price quotes from both my RW and an agency.

My last experience is not from Voronezh but from Odessa... Prize can vary a little but i think that we can certainly compare Voronezh to Odessa...

First, the apartment : i have pay 200$ for one month ( but stay only 3 week ). It was a little apartment in the center of city, with one bedroom, one living room, one bathroom, one kitchen... house furniture was included in price. Electricity, water and phone included.

These apartment was not find on the internet but via a local real estate agency... price are what local people pay... for long period, like 3 month, 6 month or one year, price are lower...

For the stay itself, since i go out, i got to restaurant, i visit, i buy food and drink, etc... around 400 euro month is needed... local make it at lower price but tourism ask some expense and i like quality food...

Let say that you can stay localy very confortable with 800$ month, hiring of apartment include... of course, if you wish luxe, it is more expensive, a lot of more expensive.

For the second question, the reply is simple : yes, it is a must to stay long periode like this... in my case, we have live like husband and wife... she was working, we have make shooping together, cook together, clean apartment together... we was like a couple and not like two tourist on holiday.

Now, like other, price around 3800$ month lead me to think about a scam...

[Turboguy]

Before you go dumping the love of your life for being a scammer you might want to nicely ask if the prices she and the agency quoted are in Dollars or Roubles.    That price in Dollars should get you a nice penthouse with 2 pools, bodyguard and helicopter pad.  That price in Roubles would convert to just under $ 150 a month which seems about right for a decent apartment there. 

[ecr844]

Hello Everyone,

Thanks for the replies thus far, please keep them coming. As I mentioned in my post the prices quoted were for 2 people in USD, to stay together in a hotel or flat for 30+ days. This works out to be about $120 USD/day. My GF looked at flats and said they are all 'horrible' and in terrible condition and that they are more expensive at approx $150 USD/day. As I mentioned previously, this works out to about 3k-3,800USD for a month for just lodging!

I also have asked the agency and they don't know that my GF looked as well at prices. They are quoting me similar $$ numbers. My intention on doing this is more to 'spend' time living with one another to 'see' if we are as 'compatible' as we think, and to really be sure that being with one another is what we want. Up to this point
we have only spent 8 days together and I think that we need to spend more time with one another before getting engaged. In this vein, I thought that by spending 30+ days living together (or staying for 6 mos and doing DCF)would help us 'know for sure' that we want to get engaged and get married, and allow us to really know one another well. But with prices at that level, I guess I have a touch of 'sticker shock'...as everything I have read on the boards say that it is cheaper to live there!!!! Any info and or opinions would be appreciated..

   I just spoke with her to confirm the numbers she gave me and they were again as follows: USD:$125-$130/day (Approx 3,200R)for 2 people to stay in a hotel and $150-200 USD/day (Approx 4,000-4,500R) for a flat, the lower price was outside of the city center, and the higher is as she put it, 'nearly in city center'... I have her working on an itemized budget so it should be interesting to see what she comes up with. She gave me a preliminary estimate to figure about 3,000R/day ( which works out to an additional ($3,351.00 USD for the whole month)for the two of us not including lodging. By those numbers I'm coming up with a trip total for expenses there being about $7,300 USD, not including flight, gifts, and other transportation and ancillary costs...Again, any and all help is appreciated.
Thanks,
Eric

[ecr844]

Unless you have got the decimal points mixed up, or your friend has quoted in Roubles you are being led up the garden path..

so,

1) If your friend (and she may not be!) is really expecting you to fall for this, you already know all you need to know about her.
2) If you are managing to mix up currencies or decimal points on a consistent basis then you are going to need all the time you can get to work on communication and, to get started on knowing each other.

The problem is as I mentioned in my reply below earlier. I only have access to 2 resources there right now. My RW & her family, and the agency. I am seeking alternate means on my own, but there is 'nothing' available online, and as a plan B I have started to try to contact local RE agents on my own. This is difficult because my Russian is quite poor. Hence the reason for my post and asking for insight and advice here.

   As far as my RW's integrity, up to this point she has given me little reason to doubt her. The prices are similar to what I payed there in May, and she has sent me a scanned copy of the price quote from the hotel on hotel letterhead. Also, the agency didn't know I asked her to 'look' for places for me. I also asked them and they are quoting similar #'s as well. So yes, this leaves open a few possibilities in my mind.

1.) I'm being scammed in concert by poth  other parties (MY RW and the agency).
2.) The agency and my Rw are being honest and these are valid #'s and I need to make a tough choice, as to whether I want to out lay this much capital.

The reason I am considering doing this is I believe we need to spend more than 8 days together before getting engaged, and or married and doing a fiancee visa. This to me is just common sense.

3) If your communication is so poor that simple factual errors are ocurring then do you really want to allocate months of your life to somebody who you do not know at all? Might not a second, shorter visit be more appropriate?

Personally I do not think that it is possible to make such a fundamental cock-up in communication, even with NO shared language skills.
You are being set up like a sheep for shearing.

I bet that your 'friend' has told you that she needs to pay for the apartment in advance, yes?

In general though, what you are suggesting seems to me to be fine. If nothing else you will gain an appreciation of what your friend will go through if she ends up in your home in the US and so you will be better prepared to deal with the inevitable issues.

My RW has not mentioned she needs to pay up front, or asked for 'cash' in advance. We talk daily on the phone (we discuss everything, and no subject is taboo, or not able to be discussed between us), and we both have the same opinions on this. Those opinions being that this is a great idea and is something which is an important step for us, and will only be beneficial. Also, she knows all about my financial and career situation, so no secrets there either. As for the rest of the communication aspect, her English started as about a 1-2 on the 5 scale when I was there in May. I have paid for her to take English lessons daily for 2 hrs, 5 days a week, for the next 3 mos or so, and I am willing to pay for more if those go well. Her English is improving and I am waiting to do this for a few months until her english improves to the point where we can communicate effectively and understand one another. I hope to use this time together to get to know her MUCH better than I was able to in the 8 days we spent together and her family as well. I was inspired by some of the people who have posted here who have doen the same thing and I think it only makes sense to try to spend as much time together as possible before we get engaged and married. That way neither of us will have doubts as to what we're getting into. These are just my opinions, and views, and I have posted here to try to get some advice, insight, opinions, etc... from those who have done this before and are more experienced than I. It is my hope to learn as much as possible so that I don't repeat others mistakes, and gain as much as possible from the experience. Again, thanks for your time, help, insight and advice,
Eric

[Bruno]

   I just spoke with her to confirm the numbers she gave me and they were again as follows: USD:$125-$130/day (Approx 3,200R)for 2 people to stay in a hotel and $150-200 USD/day (Approx 4,000-4,500R) for a flat, the lower price was outside of the city center, and the higher is as she put it, 'nearly in city center'... I have her working on an itemized budget so it should be interesting to see what she comes up with. She gave me a preliminary estimate to figure about 3,000R/day ( which works out to an additional ($3,351.00 USD for the whole month)for the two of us not including lodging. By those numbers I'm coming up with a trip total for expenses there being about $7,300 USD, not including flight, gifts, and other transportation and ancillary costs...Again, any and all help is appreciated.

Eric, ask her how much she pay for her own apartment... or better, ask her how much money she make by month... She will maybe reply something between 250-400$ month... If she is able to live with these amount, you will be certainly able to life there with for time these amount... let say 400*4 = 800$.. food, loddging, all included...

How much russian couple, in little city, can make $7300 month... same the majority don't make 10% of these amount... Maybe she will that you treat her like a little princess... but what it will be when she will stay in US, married to her... for the same level, $7300 month will be too short in US... don't spoil her now, you will pay it all you life...

If she don't wish become more reasonnable, run... run fast... and not after her !

[ecr844]

Eric, ask her how much she pay for her own apartment... or better, ask her how much money she make by month... She will maybe reply something between 250-400$ month... If she is able to live with these amount, you will be certainly able to life there with for time these amount... let say 400*4 = 800$.. food, loddging, all included...

How much russian couple, in little city, can make $7300 month... same the majority don't make 10% of these amount... Maybe she will that you treat her like a little princess... but what it will be when she will stay in US, married to her... for the same level, $7300 month will be too short in US... don't spoil her now, you will pay it all you life...

If she don't wish become more reasonnable, run... run fast... and not after her !

Bruno,


   As for her salary, she told me she makes 3,500R/month. I haven't asked her what her mom pays on their family flat, but she has in the past told me they own it. So I would assume that they don't pay rent or so forth but I willl ask her. As I mentioned above she figured a daily budget of approx 2,500-3k roubles for everythin for the 2 of us except lodging. As far as what she expects, I gave her little expectation. I told her I'm dirt poor, and have nothing to give her, or for her to take. She told me she wants to be together for love not money, she also told me that when her parents married they only owned what would fit in 2 suitcases between them and that they were married for 30 yrs or so. I guess time will tell with this. I have tried to take a trust but verify approach with her, and in general. The main reason I posted this here asking for advice is because I don't know everything and hope to benefit form the collective experience here as much as possible...Thanks for all your advice, I respect your opinions, insight and experience, please keep it coming,
Eric

[Rvrwind]

Well Bubba, I live in Russia, in Tver to be exact, not far from Moscow & believe me, somebody is pullin' your peepee!!!
I can get you a flat here: 2 rooms fully renovated to western standards, with brand new appliances, furniture & pots & pans & all you need to set up housekeeping for 1,500 ruble per day or $1,698USD a month.
A one room will run you 20,000 ruble a month or $754.00 USD. Those are both fully renovated to western standards with brand new furniture & appliances right smack in the center of Tver.
Now if your willing to live as I do & most Russians do, I can get you a flat here not in the center for $150-200USD a month. I can't believe for one second that flats in Voronezh are more expensive than Tver. My wife & I have lived in this flat for about 2 years & our rent is only 6000 ruble a month plus phone & electric about another 200-500 ruble depending on the time of year.
2,500-3k ruble per day for living expenses. My God I'd be living like a king on that for crying loud out!!! Is she panning to eat out at the most expensive place in town every day as well as going to the night clubs every night? This is not normal living that one lives in a relationship...I bet we spend less tha 5000 ruble per month on groceries & such. Maybe she expects you'll be showering her with gifts everyday. ???
I don't know Bubba but something ain't trackin' right & I can attest to that.
So I don't hesitate to say somebody is yankin' your chain. I have no connections there but Jack does. PM him & go from there but I'd say if this woman is quoting those kind of rates & is adamant about it, I'd 'Run Forest Run'!

[lindochka]

I had a two-bedroom apartment (fully furnished, equipped kitchen, 24-hour hot water, satellite TV/stereo/phone) in the center of Moscow within walking distance or a short metro ride of everything for not much more than the rent you're being quoted for Voronezh. Granted that was two years ago, but even adjusting for inflation, what you're being quoted seems very high for a town like Voronezh when I consider that we spent much less than that for apartments in the center of Odessa and Sevastopol as recently as three months ago, and we weren't paying what the locals pay (which would have been still less).

As for your other questions, my fiance and I have lived together while on vacation together for an aggregate of about three months total, broken up into shorter stays. (I have relatives in his hometown, where I have spent even more time over the last several years, and I already know his family; hence our choice to be alone with each other on vacations elsewhere.)

Although we didn't go off to work every day, our time together gave us the opportunity to "see if we could be a family," as my fiance put it during our second sojourn. And because we didn't go off to work every day, and also because we didn't know anyone there but each other, we spent an incredible amount of time together. Pretty difficult to hide one's less-than-perfect aspects under those circumstances.

I would definitely recommend it, based on our experience. I just hope you can find a cheaper place to live!

[andrewfi]

Richard is right.

You are being asked to spend about $100 per day. Given that she earns not more than that, she says, per month, what does it look like to you?

Put it this way. Do you spend $100 per day on food and entertainment in the US? COULD you spend $100 per day, every day in the US, in a normal town, doing normal things?

If her figure is for one month, it is not enough. Given your explanations I don't think that she has gotten days and months confused.

The price Richard has quoted for apartments is, I am sure, for an agency rented apartment on which the agency will make a decent, if not exorbitant commission. (last I knew, agents were making about 50% on short term lets. Richard may be less greedy...)
An hotel will usually give a very significant reduction for stays of several weeks. Expect 50% or more discount from the rack rate.

Are the agency in cahoots with your 'friend'? Probably. Also, the hotel will tell the agency or woman what they tell them to. It is good business for them. Take the money and split the surplus profit - people do this all the time, in all countries.

IMHO, you should, if you want to live well, food, accomodation, entertainment etc budget for something in the order of $2000 per month. That will get you a decent, but Russian standard apartment, not horrible. Good food, going out whenever you want, travel, gifts, the works. Most people will be spending much less, but I assume that you will not know the best ways to do thngs and you will want to show off a tad - also that your 'friend' will want you to be a touch extravagant with her.

One thing to bear in mind. If you confront your 'friend' and tell her to be sensible, she may well punish you by finding a place for which you will pay a lower price, but that will be a hovel, she wil find the worst place imaginable. She will blame you for having been 'greedy', telling you this is the best that can be found for the money, but will make a suggestion of a friend who has a nicer place for, surprise, surprise, the kind of money she originally suggested.

Be aware that in most cases the apartment you rent will normally be occupied by the owner. The owner will go live with a friend, or, in the summer, go dacha, so there is no cost to the owner of the place, it is all profit. Do not beleive anyone who tells you stories of how expensive places are.

[Bruno]

Be aware that in most cases the apartment you rent will normally be occupied by the owner. The owner will go live with a friend, or, in the summer, go dacha, so there is no cost to the owner of the place, it is all profit. Do not beleive anyone who tells you stories of how expensive places are.

In my case, with real estate agency, they are appartment that agency own, they are waiting a future owner... The agency is ready to hire it by month but without contract ( so, they don't pay tax )... usually, 50% at the begin and 50% at the end... It is total benefice for the agency...

Eric, in a previous post, you say that you have find nothing on the internet... so, i have use Google during 5 minutes... and i have find a hotel in the center of Voronezh where the price are similar to these of your girlfriend... of course, for the price, you receive the best suite of the hotel, the presidential suite with salon, sauna, jacuuzzi, 2 bathroom, 2 bedroom, etc ...

[JustPlaneCrazy]

(I ask, because I am being quoted exorbitant prices...$3k/month to stay in a hotel and 3,800/mo for a flat..!!! ) Just as a side note; I'm getting the same price quotes from both my RW and an agency.

I stayed in Moscow in a nice high rise hotel (Holiday Inn quality) for $75 a night so that would only be $2250 for a month.......you're being scammed....big time!

[andrewfi]

It is sad though.

A guy goes and spends time with a woman they 'fall in love' and now she is trying to rip him off.
And there are people who try to tell me that this is not a mucky dirty business. ???

[tim 360]

Ggggeeeezzzz Eric,  Something does not smell right here.  The prices she is giving you are way outta whack.  Maybe you should try a less expensive city. Good luck,  Cheers, Tim

[Vaughn]

Eric wrote:

I just spoke with her to confirm the numbers she gave me and they were again as follows: USD:$125-$130/day (Approx 3,200R)for 2 people to stay in a hotel

It's fairly tough to locate accomodations in Voronezh even via Google,
but I did find this Hotel Yar, which appears to be nice. It's higher than her figure (if those quotes are in Euros)

http://www.traveligit.com/rus/yar.htm

It's even nicer than I thought, check this link, rates are in dollars:

http://www.tourintel.ru/online/gethoteldescription.asp?id=500476

[andrewfi]

At the very least this woman has somewhat high expectations.

I wonder what she is telling her friends.

You gonna have to be some kinda 'generous' to live up tot hekind of accomodations she has in mind.

You might want t make sure she has seen the kind of cicumstances she is going to have back in your home - no wide angle lenses for those pics either!

[Vaughn]

At the very least this woman has somewhat high expectations.
You gonna have to be some kinda 'generous' to live up tot hekind of accomodations she has in mind.

 Same thought crossed my mind, Andrew.

 I'm also thinking if that hotel costs what it does, a suitable monthly apartment rental could be had for far less. Anybody got Voronezh
classifieds?

[andrewfi]

The thing is that an hotel WILL give very significant discounts against 'rack rate' the prices quoted to you on-line, or by reference to a price list. So, even the prices to the Toscannini, or Presidential suites in the YAr, for example, are about 50% higher than he should be paying. (stay for one or two nights and a discount is much harder to find.

Re the apartment.
If renting through an agency, be it a real estate agent or an MOB agency, they will normally base their costings upon about 10 nights occupation per month. After the first ten nights have been paid, everything else is gravy. Thus, if an apartment is offered at $125 per night, any offer in excess of that amount is profitable to the agent/owner. They won't give you the nights for free, but a 50% reduction on the overall price? Could do, unless there are alternate bookings for the rest of the month. (that's the way I deal with my apartments)

If renting privately then everything is gravy to the owner who will just upsticks and stay with rellos.

In all honesty, there is little left to know. No  need to go hassling a makler... The woman is either nieve to the point of imbecility and being misled by nasty, nasty people around her. Dishonest and on the take with her 'bizniz partners', or honest but imbued with some radically strange ideas about the man she is planning to spend her life with.
Sadly, my money is on the second option.
That she has been consistent in her demands/suggestions bears witness to dishonesty. Honesty would have resulted in a reduction in hotel costs following a renegotiation. Only imbecility or dishonesty would result in a 'no change' scenario and that the poster was willing to trust the woman to make the arrangements on his behalf suggests that she does not have the demeanour of a retard.

[Bruno]

Eric wrote:
It's fairly tough to locate accomodations in Voronezh even via Google,
but I did find this Hotel Yar, which appears to be nice. It's higher than her figure (if those quotes are in Euros)

3 hotel here :

- Hotel Yar : Moderate business, 25 km from center; more cheap bedroom for two at 145$ day
http://www.hotels-moscow.ru/cis/index.htm?hotel=500476#details

- Art hotel : Business, in the center, more cheap bedroom for two at 178$ day
http://www.hotels-moscow.ru/cis/index.htm?hotel=500382#details

- Sputnik : Superior economy, 8 km from center, more cheap bedroom for two at 41$ day
http://www.hotels-moscow.ru/cis/index.htm?hotel=400263#details

These last one seem a possible choice...

A site with not so much information where i have find 14 hotel in Voronezh :
http://all-hotels.ru/index.en.html?kk=9cdfe72cc0&Up=1

A other link, hotel Brno, in the center, near the night club Flamingo... bedroom double from 47$
http://www.traveligit.com/rus/brno.htm

For the hotel Art (174$ double ), Yar ( 142$ double ) and sputnick ( 41$ double ), if you make the reservation via the following site ( http://www.maria-travel.com/English/hotels/price/region/voronezh.htm ), you can have some discount if you stay more that 3 night ( http://www.maria-travel.com/English/discont.htm )

All find via Google, on the first 3 page of result... i have use more time for type these post that find the Hotel's... of course, i am the Google man 

So, Eric, you have already two hotel with bedroom for two for 41$ at the Sputnick (***) and 47$ at the Brno (**)...

[tim 360]

The Yar indeed???  Just lovely Vaughn.  She will love it there.  Good work Bruno,  I was going to suggest the Sputnik earlier.  $41 is a tad better.  Had a more difficult time finding apts for Voronezh.  Hotels were easier.  Its all out there on the internet or maybe Jack has a contact in/near that city if you wish to continue. I would think you could find a decent apt in that place for $60 or below.

[Vaughn]

Andrew, I follow your line of thinking, but you're stating two
contradictory conclusions. And your "either / or" statements
have in the past labeled my Elvira "dim" and I assure you
it doesn't apply.

BRUNO, nice catch - I only found one hotel, and no flats -
which I think strange for a city it's size...

Tim wrote:

I was going to suggest the Sputnik earlier.

I wish you had. As far as the thread ran, nobody offered a concrete
example of rental space for less. until Bruno hopped on it.

THAT's the crux of the issue - less expensive accomodations are
available. I'm worried for Eric - either she's taking him for a ride,
or she's prone to accept nothing less than stellar treatment, after
all, her estimate of their daily expenses exclusive of the room
(or flat) was approaching her own stated monthly income.
 IMO and in my own wife's opinion, this is most unreasonable.
Perhaps Eric's spoiled her rotten - and now there's no turning back?

Eric, as Jack and Riverwind say, there's a problem.

[ConnerVT]

I have no idea how much accommodations cost where you are headed (although I'll echo other's thoughts that a decimal point has moved a place or two).  And I don't know the level of the relationship, or the amount of time you two have known each other.  But I will put my story out there for a different perspective.

After my first visit with my (then future) wife, I returned to Russia about three months later.  I spent three weeks with her, staying at her and her (then) 4 y.o. son at her flat.  One week of that time, we traveled to Sochi for a short vacation.  Total cost of the vacation trip for the two of us, with soviet style 3 star hotel and airfare was about $600 USD (in 2003).  She was beside herself about the cost of the trip, and even asking me for the airfare money ahead of time (she needed it to secure the tickets).

The rest of the stay, we lived as a married couple would -- shopping at the grocery (or open market), walking Pasha to/from kindergarten, visiting with family and friends.  She guarded my money as it was our money (perhaps better than she does now as my wife  ).  She was not going to waste money that we would need as a family together.  It remained like this for each trip I took for us to be together -- five trips in total until USCIS finally got it all together and granted their visas.

Even when I left money for her to take of things we needed -- English lessons, paperwork and trips related to the visa, she accounted for every ruble.  Even the 7 Py for the bus to/from her English tutors home.

I guess the thing that stands out most to me is the folks here who have replied to your post seem more concerned about your financial future than your significant other.  We can only imagine what the future holds for you...
Even when