Question for the board regarding living with your SO for a short time in Russia

[Vaughn]

Conner wrote:

She guarded my money as it was our money (perhaps better than she does now as my wife   ).  She was not going to waste money that we would need as a family together.

Excellent point, Conner...

My experience in the courtship phase was very similar - living together,
preparing meals, tending to the daughter's needs as well. I think a lady's
good stewardship of money is a solid green flag - how many times I heard
"That's too expensive" or "I know where we can get it for less." When we
dined out, it was an event, and not an everyday occurrence. The tactic
of living simply better prepared us for the reality of our future together.

RWs' natural ability in accounting may be why so many refer to themselves
as "economists".

[DKMM]

I thought I'd throw in my opinion.  Eric, this is the same girl that sorta kinda ripped you off on her cab fares right?

That said, I would hesitate to assume she's scamming you.  I'm guessing more along the lines of she thinks you're rich.  Some people have no idea what its like to live in another income bracket and don't understand what's appropriate.  I come from a well off family and I've dated a "ghetto" girl who acted somewhat like I'm reading about on here.  Its not like she was trying to rip me off, she simply thought that being with me entitled her to the good life.  Not understanding that the real reason we have money is because we don't spend it.  Some don't have any idea what its like to have money, they just spend what they got till the next paycheck comes in.

I'd say the best thing you can do is explain to her how much you thought you could/should spend.  That you even asked her how much of a budget you'd spend each day outside of lodging gives her the wrong idea.  You could guess that she's being truthful about the apartment (and that's a stretch), but no way is this being remotely realistic on the day to day spending.

You came on here because you had a nagging idea that you might be in a bad spot, but I bet you didn't want to hear the truth.  Tell her $2500 USD for the month is your budget for everything but the airfare.  What she says to that speaks volumes and you'd better listen. . .

[andrewfi]

I do not think I was being contradictory in the two posts. The first was perhaps a little more generous. The second probably more realistic. Whatever the reality of the situation, honest or not, nieve or no, if this woman expects him to be living in accomodations of the type paid for on the budget she has outlined, and considering her estimate of their daily out of pocket expenses, whatever her intentions, her expectations are almost certainly well out of whack.

I do know that intelligence is a relative thing. What one person might consider dim as a 25 watt bulb, others might consider a shining light - it depends where one stands. Kinda same same as poverty. But if you think about the options in this case, dimness is probably the most charitable view and yet the least likely to be close to the reality.

Just a thought for the hotel site watchers. As a rule of thumb don't stay, voluntarily, in an hotel called 'Sputnik', no matter how cheap. A decent hotel in Russia is often not cheap, those who can afford decent don't mind paying. Those who can not know they will be sharing with cockroaches. The middle ground is sometimes hard to find.

IMHO, given that Eric has now had two go-rounds with his beloved on the budget issue, DKMM's suggeston makes good sense. Also, perhaps time for Eric to get on the phone to one or more of the hotels directly.

[tim 360]

Andrewfi, Wasn't recommending the "Sputnik",  it was just a quick $ comparison for Eric could not find info.  I don't have the time or desire to dig deeper.

Conner:  Yeah.  left the girl out.  Did not want to go there,  thought the #'s did alot of the talking and Eric could figure this all out on his own,  afterall he knows the girl...not me.  Tim360

OTOH, She might very well be thinking that the Yar is the level of comfort which he is accustomed to and did not want him/her in the Sputnik.  All conjecture.

[Turboguy]

If you are sure this is the right gal, and you want to go live with her there for a while, perhaps it might be cheaper to go somewhere that you can get a cheap apartment (ie a few hundred a month), give her the equivilent of what she would loose in lost wages and spend your time in another city.   Maybe even someplace scenic like over to Ukraine.  I have a feeling you could get a really cheap apartment someplace on the black sea in the off season.  You could actually give her three times what she is making and come out thousands ahead each month.

[ecr844]

Hello Everyone,


  Thanks for the replies. The hotel and the price I as quoted was the 'Hotel Royssia' it was for a one bedroom suite ( she says it has a large bed, a small kitchen, and living room) for the 2 of us as I posted earlier, for about 3,200R/night. She admits that she didn't ask about a long tem stay discount. When I stayed there in May I stayed in the Hotel 'Bruno,'( she says this was a cheaper place but atheir room didn't have the kitchenette, and or small living room, thus forcing us 'to eat out' all the time). I appreciate all of the insight and information, you all have posted. I haven't had the opportunity to check the links yet, but the very reason I posted here this question was because something stinks in China Town. As for budget and dollars I have made it more than clear, and have gone out of my way to not spoli her. I live in the mid-lower end of the missle class (don'twe all want to move up in status on the income highway?!?!? ) and on my trip brought pictures(of my home, car, how I live etc...) and told her flat out that when and if we got married and or she came here that she would be living in the same situation and or slightly worse monitarily than what she's leaving ( I do my best to re-enforce this idea regularly). I did this so as to try to avoid the problem which has compelled me to 'post' this and ask for advice or help here. I haven't hid or mislead her on what my income is and or monthly budge, and I have shared both with her. Personally, I believe that 'honesty' is the best policy in this endeavor. Additionally, as I mentioned in my earlier post, this is alot of $$ for me, but I am wiling to take the hit if it means that there is a good possibilty that I will find in her 'a wonderful life partner'. Living together as I mentioned as well, I thought would give a better idea of just how 'compatible' we are. On the phone yesterday she mentioned that her mom said I could stay with them in the 'family flat,' due to the exorbitant prices she was finding. Also, she volunteered what some of you echoed earlier that I could buy a flat for almost that much. I haven't had the opportunity to sit down and do soem more in-depth searching on my own. I hope to do so tomorrow. I am trying to keep my 'eyes open' with regards to this and this process and not let emotion cloud my judgement. Admittedly, perhaps it has some, as I have come to care for this girl, but it seems there is potentially a red flag here...?!?!? I guess I'll know more later this week after I spend some more time searching on my own. Again, thanks for the help everyone, and if you have any more info., thoughts or comments please feel fre to post them.
Thanks for the help,
Eric

[Turboguy]

Humm, so you are not rich Ecr.  Here is your chance.  Buy a flat and rent it out at the going rate and you can be rich in no time.  Throw it on the interent.  You will be the only one and there should be a waiting line. 

Despite what some of the others have said, it does not sound to me like "she" is trying to rip you off.  I think the apartment prices sound out of line but I don't think it is her trying to scam you.   (I put the "she" in quotes becuase it does sound like the apartment agents are)

It sounds like you are trying to explore all the alternatives and I am sure a solution will present itself.  You have been honest with her and it sounds like she is not after you for your money.  Keep working at it and you will find a solution.

[Mamma D]

Yes it is sad...but remember the road runs both ways.....

A lot of men write and ... dream, make promises and never leave their Keybords!

A few years ago, I lost a hard drive and went to the libary to check my email. Beside me sat a Street person... dirty and coarse. He was fussing and swearing about a womens email....guess who he was writing to? One of the Russian ladies from an agency I was familiar with... (My Russian born daughter was listed there!). That was how he passed his time, writing, and telling these ladies what a great guy he was..... Was he any less a scammer?  Making promises he would never keep... and he knew it!

Some men do go and are far less than truthful, and the lady finds out... only after she has left all that was dear to her... family, flat and worst of all her job.... Some stick it out for their kids sake, others, just return home and re-build their lives.

We will always have scammers in both sexes, and only if you are vigilant and really get to know the other person, can you not fall into these traps.

Mamma D

[Turboguy]

The guy who showed me my first catalog of Russian women was a welfare guy who did not drive, lived in a house that had about 2 foot of tilt from the floor to the roof and had no running water. (probably because he had not paid the bill.).  I am not sure he ever worked.  He had nothing going for him physically either.  After he got me hooked he used to get the addresses that I had paid for but did not want and wrote like crazy.   I think he wasted his time and the gals time and money.  It was a shame.

[andrewfi]

Andrewfi, Wasn't recommending the "Sputnik",  it was just a quick $ comparison for Eric could not find info.  I don't have the time or desire to dig deeper.

Tim I was making no comment about a recommendation (or not) about the Sputnik. As a general observation, leading from the knowledge that many hotels in Russia are not very pleasant, one might well expect a place called Sputnik to be an aging and run-down establishment about 50 years old and probably last remonted in the mid 70's, if ever. It was not a criticism.

This is a part of Eric's problem. If one spends too little, one does not get a basic but clean room, one likely gets an unsanitary midden! An expensive place may be a palace. Russia is lacking in decent midrange and cheap hotels.

Eric, I wish you luck. No matter what the opinions of myself and other noise makers may be, you are the one wooing the woman. You are the one making the choices. Budget the money you need and, in your head at least, write it off before you even get on the plane to Russia. Enjoy yourself and if she leads you a merry dance, make sure that you get bang for your buck and return home having had a good time.
If she is an angel, then she will spread her wings while you are together (if she is to be your angel) Don't worry to much about the money. You have the basic info you need to make some choices about how and where you live and, of course, you can always move!

[ecr844]

Hello Everyone,


I haven't been able to post for awhile but have soem time today and thought I would update you all on what I have found out. Since I have posted this thread I have been in touch with numerous real estate agents in the greater Voronezh area, and have found the prices to be the same as mentioned earlier in this thread. Also, since the time of my last post I have been told that there may be a possibility to get a decent flat via a friend of my RW. We shall see, though. Since the price point is so high, I am actively considering just taking a few shorter trips in a shorter time period. If anyone has any newer info, or any other suggestions, I'm all ears. Hope all is well, Thanks for everyones help,
Eric

[Christopher]

When I was in Zaporozhye last time I neded a place and went throgh and agency.  They called their real estat place and quoted me a price.  I firmly told them to much and said what I had been quoted by other people.  That with a little more firm heckling got them down $100.00.

[Gator]

Ain’t love grand! To give up your job to be next to your woman.

Although love is great, you are not sending a good message if you can not afford A Russian standard of living.  I will not talk about the apartment prices.  However, I will raise some new issues.

If you stay longer than two months, you need to know the language.  Otherwise, you will be clinging to her every moment.  Women want someone that they can lean on, not the opposite.

If you stay longer than two months, you will stress the relationship.  Personally, the winter and the lack of intellectual outlets would make me crazier than a shithouse rat.  Other than cross-country skiing, there also are no physical activity outlets for small budgets.  However, if your relationship can survive this, you have something solid.

I stayed one time for two months and our relationship did not improve.  She was busy with a job and her kids, and I was walking around like an unemployed man.  I was bored to tears. 

Why give up your job and income?  Would you and she not be more comfortable if she came to the US and lived off of your earnings here?  That would necessitate marriage, so perhaps you are saying you are not ready to propose because you do not know her.  Yet, you are willing to forgo your job, so something is there. Not easy, is it!  Good luck.

[ecr844]

Ain’t love grand! To give up your job to be next to your woman.

Yes, when infused with a measure of logic and common sense love can be amazing. I as mentioned will also take the hit however tough it maybe on my income to be with the one I care for. There is more to life than money.

Although love is great, you are not sending a good message if you can not afford A Russian standard of living.  I will not talk about the apartment prices.  However, I will raise some new issues.

Actually based on the rate quotes and the budget mentioned in previous posts, the standard of living is more towards the Bill Gates strata or someone who is quite wealthy. By those numbers I could live in Manhattan or Moscow for about the same or even cheaper. Also, based on information from her about her 'living standard' and her budget, she even admits this is WAY above what she pays or lives on in a month, and the 'housing costs' is the biggest factor here. Couple that with the fact that if things go as well as I expect I will also be bringing an enagagement ring as well as gifts for the holidays and other ancillary expenses and the budget swells further than quoted.

If you stay longer than two months, you need to know the language.  Otherwise, you will be clinging to her every moment.  Women want someone that they can lean on, not the opposite.

I don't see myself clinging to anyone. When I was there for my trip I went out all by my lonesome daily. This was much to her chagrin, but I did so and got along just fine. There have also been a few other members here who relate doing the same without clinging to their RW as well. But I will keep your opinion in mind for the future.

If you stay longer than two months, you will stress the relationship.  Personally, the winter and the lack of intellectual outlets would make me crazier than a *snip*house rat.  Other than cross-country skiing, there also are no physical activity outlets for small budgets.  However, if your relationship can survive this, you have something solid.

Part of the budget included excursions and activities as well as use of a gym.

I stayed one time for two months and our relationship did not improve.  She was busy with a job and her kids, and I was walking around like an unemployed man.  I was bored to tears.

Good point

Why give up your job and income?

For anumber of reasons, not the least of which is being 'sure' that this is what we want, and that we can live together. I think this is alot less invasive than uprooting her from her life, losing her job, and leaving family, and all she knows to do a K-1 on grounds that are not very certain. As I mentioned before I think it is irresponsible to do this without knowing each other and spending as much time as possible.
 

  Would you and she not be more comfortable if she came to the US and lived off of your earnings here?

She is not a good canidate for a tourist visa. See my previous remarks about the K-1.

 

That would necessitate marriage, so perhaps you are saying you are not ready to propose because you do not know her.  Yet, you are willing to forgo your job, so something is there. Not easy, is it!  Good luck.

I never thought that this would be an easy road. I had no illusions about an express trip through a catlogue or picking the most beautiful woman in the window to take home for life. I am willing to take a hit on my income to invest in the possibility that I have found gold in the manifestation of a life partner and a wife. I can go back to my job. The loss of income will hurt the most as I am a middle class guy. I  have also had other barriers in this process that most don't experience. One member here has recently, and it has been tough I'm sure for him. Although his situation occurred AFTER marriage so it is soemwhat different than my own. Also, she is 100%$ aware of my thoughts, feelings, situation, income and all of those other factors you mentioned and we both agree this is the most prudent course. recently we have also been discussiing the possibility of shorter trips as mentioned.

Thanks,
ecr844

[catzenmouse]

Eric,

 Excellent post! I hope that you will get a chance to keep us up to date while you are "in country" as to your impressions and thoughts.

Ken

[ecr844]

Eric,

 Excellent post! I hope that you will get a chance to keep us up to date while you are "in country" as to your impressions and thoughts.

Ken

Ken,

Thanks, at the risk of spoiling my unfinished TR here {I can't seem to find where I stashed my 'notes' from the trip and I don't want to detract from my previous posts. I will try to get it finished soon as promised previously} there has been alot going on. We talk ususally at least every other day for a few hours or more on the phone. We continue to write letters like before. She is taking English lessons for 2 hrs a day 5x a week and her english has improved dramatically. She also does alot of 'homework' and her self stated goal is to

'be able to understand all things when we are talikng with out difficulty'.

It's a work in  progress but everyday I learn more about someone who is a sincere, honest, hardworking, giving, caring, intelligent, etc... woman. I have made many mistakes, and I am sure that there will be many more. That's life, and sometimes how you learn. You step on your ****, it hurts and soon enough after 1 - a few times or shortly there after you won't be making those same mistakes again {hopefully}. To be honest even though my situation and journey through this has been unusual, I hope to be one of the success stories here, and I have learned alot form the posts and other memebrs who have shared their experiences and advice here. Thank you,
Eric

[Doug S]

I have a strong opinion on this. And I am guilty of not reading all the posts in this thread. I am responding mainly to the initial post.

It's a waste of time. The whole idea is for her to come to the West and live with you for ever after. Yes, I understand that a lot of guys think that they can get to know the Russian women better by shacking up with them over there, but it has absolutely nothing to do with what your eventual life in the West will be like together. Absolutely nothing.

And, yes, I understand that a lot of guys will say that by doing that, they can at least get a feel for the women's personalities, basic areas of compatibility, etc. I'm not buying that either. In FSU they will be acting nothing like they will act here. Or re-phrased, they will act completely different when they get here (as will you).


Not only will spending a bunch of time over there most likely eat up a lot of your time and resources, it will also most likely retard your position in the West when you finally do return (look for a new job, stir up those old clients, etc.). If anything, it will have the detrimental of postponing the culture shock that you both will need to eventually face (the culture shock goes both ways, even though you, the Western guy are on your home turf), thereby lulling you both into a false sense of security with the danger of the shock being exponentially worse that it would have been when you finally get to it.

You've got to cut to the chase. If you have vetted the woman thoroughly through several months of correspondence and one good, rich two- or three-week visit, and are still feeling like she's the one; then get her over here on a K-1 (or to whatever Western country you live in on their equivalent) and get the cold turkey going. If it's USA, use the full 90 day period of the K-1. I other words, don't get married until after Day 80. In fact, don't even say the "M" word to her, until after Day 60. Hang back and watch the true colors develop - both hers and yours. This is when you will find out what you both are made of, not when you are carrying on in la-la- love land with Western money in FSU.

Yes, yes, I know about the initial notions of what a "cross-cultural" relationship should entail to the uninitiated. I was there once myself. You think you're supposed to learn as much about their culture as you can, meet them halfway as soon as you can, etc. And it sounds good in theory.  But later you find out it doesn't work in practice. The physical-geographical distance of what's about to happen in terms of her relocating to the West to be your wife, combined with the incredible complexity and foreignness of the Russian culture, renders your idealistic notion of "getting to know her culture" in advance impossible to achieve. It would take ten years. All that comes later. You spend the rest of your lives together discovering each others' cultures.

For the sake of practicality and logistics, she's got to come to the West and learn your culture first, and you've got to play catch-up with hers from a distance. That's just the way it is. There is no short-cutting.

I know some guys go native; end up living in FSU with a Russian woman.

But is that what you really want? probably not. The whole idea is for them to come to the West, improve the quality of their lives, make a future for themselves and their children. There is no future for those who stay there. It is stagnant and corrupt. For those who are finishing their lives out, not those who are embarking on new, promising and hopeful ones.

That's why I give Russian women who want to get out, who make a concerted effort to get out, five automatic points for character and intelligence. Now, they still have to earn five more points in the areas of honesty, ethics, kindness, and giving, mind you - the things that set keepers apart from tossers. (Problem is a lot of them have the character and intelligence to flee bad (poison) and head for good (nourishment), but many lack the other qualities I mentioned, which are the qualities that make good wives and good citizens.)   

You really gotta wonder about a Russian woman who will let a guy shack up with her over there, go native.  And you've really got to wonder about a guy who wants to do that. - Caveat: Please don't anybody get offended or upset by my statements here. I am just giving my own, personal point of view. What do I know? It just seems to me that the message from the woman is "I don't want your country or your culture, but I do like your Western dollars. I can live like a queen here in FSU on your Western dollars, and in return, you, well you.....(live like a King? Or at least get to shack up with a hot babe?) And the message from the guy is, "I know your country is all effed up, and that I'm capitalizing on that just a little bit (O.K., maybe a lot); but I really don't care all that much about your long-term welfare or that of your (or our) children. I'm just living for the day, shacking up with a hot babe in a place where rent, good bread, vodka and chocolate is cheap; what the hey?" ("And by the way, so profound is my love and respect for you that I am determined to learn your language and your culture and will stay here until I do." And after that, then what?

Or even worse...

"I couldn't get any hot Russian women to move to the West to live with me, so if Mohammad won't come to the mountain......"

Look, I'm not tying to upset, threaten or attack anybody. I'm  just giving my opinion on something I have very strong feelings about. I'm sure there's another point of view that shoots all this to shit.

And I'm not saying one country or culture is better than the other. Or that people who embrace one are evil, embrace the other are holy, etc. That is dangerous thinking. The two are very, very different,; that's all. Radically different. One is a failed model. The other is a model Don't forget I have a wife, relatives and loved ones who are very deeply embedded in FSU. But people do tend to vote with their feet and those migrations can be telling in terms of popular consensus. For every one Western guy who wants to go native in FSU there must be something like 1,000 or even 10,000 FSU women who want to get the hell out of there. Now that's got to tell you something.

DS
 

[docetae]

I do not agree with you .... Why are the major factor why a relation does not work ?
1 - each member of the couple is not looking for the same on the long term
2 - power stuggle, affective dependency, etc
3 - total incompability of personality.

Why a relation start very often ? good sex.

By living abroad some time, you will learn by yourself, what it will take to your RW to move abroad. All difficulties you will met to adapt yourself , she will meet them if she moves to your country. So this is a good school of patience and understanding ... Other point, the easiness you will be able to be not dependent of her in her home country to speak, to ask people for services, etc, will show her your ability to control a situation. If she is a control freak, you will know quickly ...

For me, this is only in the daily life that you can catch the personality of someone ...

[BC]

Doug,

I have to disagree with your 'waste of time' issue.

Having lived as an immigrant myself in 7 different countries, learning the languages, learning about the people and their mentality has been quite essential to understanding my wife and her experiences adjusting to her new home.

It's also not just about the wife adjusting but the husband as well.. In fact my belief is that a husband with little or no international experience will have a worse time adjusting than his wife.

All-in-all I spent almost two months with my wife, her daughter and family before marriage.  I think it did us all only good.

[Doug S]

Yes, but none of that changes the fact that it will be a completely different ball game when it is ultimately moved to the "home field." Both players will act completely different that they did before. The mountain in the West that needs to be climbed together will be no smaller, no different than it was before they "played house" in FSU. If they stay in FSU too long, the Western man may even lose sight of that mountain a little, making it an even tougher climb for him for him; and now with a total dependent on his shoulders.

BC, now that I understand you live in Italy, it is a very safe bet to say that you and I are not talking apples to apples here.

Note that both guys who disagreed appear to be Europeans/living in European countries (and I'm not talking England).

Doug

[docetae]

Being an immigrant myself I value the effort needed by my girlfriend when it will be the time to move to Canada if she decides to follow me here. You can have two attitudes : to be close or open to other cultures. By learning her daily life, I believe this will help you to understand her worries, her way of thinking and will bring you closer to her reality. This is not because you move to another country that you lose your roots.

The main difference I have noticed between Europe and North America, is the important of history in daily life, there are for Europeans a lot of little things that are coming from the past and are still present for us, that belong to our cultural background. Trying to not understand this with your RW seems to me the best way to fail my relationship with her.  We are talking about 3 differents cultures ... North American, European and Slavic ... So when a European man and a Slavic woman want to live in North America, you can imagine the culture shock for each one

[BC]

BC, now that I understand you live in Italy, it is a very safe bet to say that you and I are not talking apples to apples here.

Note that both guys who disagreed appear to be Europeans/living in European countries (and I'm not talking England).

Doug

Am having a hard time understanding your statements.. What's the difference in your opinion?

[Doug S]

B.C.

We're diverging and I think it was due to my not reading your reply closely, and then confusing that with the other reply by another member written in poor English. Never mind the apples to apples bit.

Now I see that you are saying it's good for the man to have some "international experience" so he can better understand what his Russian wife is going through. I get it.

And I agree completely. It worked well for me. I had/have a lot of "international experience" myself. I've been a stranger in a strange land many times. I know what its like and I knew what Olga was going to be up against when she got to the U.S.. And I know that has a lot to do with the success of our cross-cultural marriage.

(I think it also has a lot to do with why I finally came to the conclusion that a foreign woman would probably suit me best as a wife.)

But I'm not so sure the place for the guy to get that experience is in FSU, camping out with his potential future foreign wife. Better if he gets his "international experience" before-hand, and perhaps more objectively.

(Note that most of the guys whose only "international experience" has been chasing women around FSU seem to really have gained no real "international experience" of any value in terms of helping them in a cross-culture relationship. Rather they seem to just keep going back, haunting the countryside, forever in search of the elusive and unobtainable. They seem to be either learning all of the wrong things, or maybe they are just incapable of learning. Perhaps these guys should be forced to traverse Indonesia or South America from one end to the other by train and boat for several months in search of waves before they are allowed to go to FSU in search of wives.) 

Of course, I guess a lot of guys haven't had that opportunity, and its too late now, so a prolonged stay in FSU would be at least some kind of "international experience" for them.

In this sense, you are right that it would not be total waste of time. - For guys who have no "international experience."

(I guess it was easy for me to say that, having already had my fill of "international experience.")

When I visited Olga for the very first time, and the only time before she came to the U.S., we spent about five days together as tourists in Kiev, "living" together in a rented apartment. It was her first time in Kiev as well as mine. I did not see very much value at all in those five days in terms of really getting to know each other (although the city, culture and sights were rich and worthwhile). And we had a crooked interpreter with a hidden agenda which devalued our time together even more.

During those five days in Kiev Olga determined I was a keeper and invited me to travel back to her home in Krivoy Rog with her to meet her family. I offered to rent my own room somewhere, but they insisted I stay with them in their little apartment. Olga's mother fired the crooked interpreter (who had also come as a "friend" from Krivoy Rog) immediately upon our arrival "home." And I "lived" there in Krivoy Rog, with Olga and her parents, for 10 days with no interpreter. I found that experience of great value, both in terms of gathering more background about Olga, and in making my decision to go through with the K-1.

But that was only ten days, fifteen for the total trip. I got in and out, accomplished my mission, gathered all the information I needed, without disrupting my real life and business dealings in the U.S. Maybe its because I already had a lot of "international experience" and was therefore more efficient at this. Maybe I am too hard on guys who don't. I was going under the assumption that limited or no "international experience" could be compensated for with intelligence, a good plan, having done your homework, self control, and lots of good old common sense, which are tools I also employed despite all of my "international experience," but maybe I am wrong about that.  I am going to have to contemplate this. 

All of that said, I still think it's more damaging for a guy to drop what he's got established in the West, quit his job or let his business connections go fallow, to try and find out if he's really in love, she's really in love, compatible, etc.; than it is for him to make the best decision he can within the limits of time and money his real life permits and hope for the best. It's that real life of his they are both going to have to return to someday.  The last thing he is going to need is to have to re-start his life in the West all over again. The newlyweds need a certain amount of security and a firm foundation to get a fair start.

BC, it does not sound like this was your situation. It sounds like your firm foundation is your suitcase. I don't know what you do for a living, but it sounds like you can set up shop and get something going just about anywhere. I'm envious. I'll take Costa Rica, please. You could have probably spent as much time as you wanted in FSU getting to know your Russian bride better and then taken her anywhere you wanted to start your new life together. But you are an exception to the norm. Most guys can't do that. Most guys have a home base in Iowa somewhere that they can't afford to stray to far from for very long. Some may be crazy enough to relocate for "love," but at our ages and places in life we're supposed to know better. (And if a Russian women is genuinely considering a guy as a husband and not just a wallet, she is going to want him to know better as well.)

I can't help but recall the case of a guy Olga and I knew, who lived near us in Southern California. He had been a DHL delivery driver for most of his life, and had semi-inherited an old, crappy run down house from his parents with a major freeway right behind it. This guy looked to be about 40. Not a great physical specimen, but not bad either. Nice guy with a good sense of humor. The house had been left to him and his sisters jointly, so he couldn't sell it and use the money to get into a nicer place, but he was allowed to live in it rent-free. He got laid off by DHL, so he started chasing women in Russian with his savings and all of the free time he now had on his hands. He shacked up with one or two different Russian women over there for a couple of months each, returning to the U.S. occasionally to get a new visa, take out the trash, etc. He kept telling me about his exploits with Russian women, how great he was doing, how he was becoming an expert on Russian women, going native, etc. etc. "This one, the one I've been living with for the last 3 months, now she's the one, she's a keeper."

And here I was about three years into my marriage with Olga, in a house we bootstrapped ourselves into together, Olga's English improving, me building up my consulting practice, struggling but gaining ground, happy as could be, dreaming about starting a family someday.

And then there was the expert whiling away his time in FSU.

When he finally brought his Russian fiancee over to the U.S. and put her in the crappy house that now featured a Killer Bee infestation and a big orange tree that had finally died of neglect, and took a job as a car salesman and the local "auto mall" that necessitated his working all kinds of strange hours did not pay regularly...

...she hung around for exactly two weeks before flying the coop and disappearing into West L.A.'s "Little Russia" ghetto one night while he was at work. Rumor was she sold herself into slavery as a live-in nanny.

We thought our gone-native Russian women expert was going to be heartbroken, but not exactly. He had been blind-sided, that was evident. he had the thousand-yard stare. But he also seemed just a little bit relieved. He showed us the evidence of the Russian visa-refugee underground railroad nanny agency she had carelessly left in the house - a Russian language newspaper ad, a mysterious email address, and a cryptic message left in Russian on the house's answering machine. He recounted, in deadpan monotone how all she did was complain, nag him about their living conditions, money, his work hours, how could he have let an ORANGE TREE die, etc. And the bees of course. Then how, when he sent her to the mall with his sisters to live it up a little on his credit card but with a limit they had both agreed to, she overran it by tenfold just to spite him, driving him even deeper into debt.

"She was totally different than the person I lived with and had so much fun with in Kazan" he exclaimed bemusedly. Shaking his head as if he couldn't understand why. "Good riddance, the bitch!"

And I thought to myself, "and so, probably are are you."

The Killer Bees formed an angry cloud in his front yard. Olga ran for the car.

"I can't believe he would let an ORANGE TREE like that die," she said as we drove away. "I'm craving oranges. Can we stop and get some oranges on the way home?"

DS

[Bruce]

Doug S - A guy has only two K-1 cracks with what I understand is going on with IMBRA these days.   Not that I would advocate it, but the days of whily nily "trial" K-1 to "see if we are compatible," is long over.  I also believe it is two years between K-1's - which gives a guy time to try to do things correctly ie. learn if the couple is really compatible the second time around. 

Your example about the unemployed DHL guy was quite funny.  I enjoyed reading it and feel sorry for the guy.  He definitely did the wrong thing in his case.  Some guys luck out, meet a great girl and can tell it quickly.  Most guys need alot of time to sort things out with their significant other.

I believe Eric is also doing the wrong thing.  Eric, I believe you have to get things right for you ie. having a stable, decent job over here prior to finding a girl over there to commit to. 

Your girl may have another agenda or she really does not care about your finances.  She expects you to just pay through the nose, or so it seems. 

If Jack can get you some decent reasonably priced flats by all means give him a call.  That will save you money and get you into a situation where the two of you can live for the most part day in, day out together.  You can shop at the local markets and not have to eat out every night.  You can see what kind of homemaker she is, how good of a cook she is.  If she prefers to live in clutter and or dirt or prefers things neat and clean.  You can share a bathroom and see how the two of you interact in that arena as well as every other day to day situations you will experience sharing a common living space.  You'll also save alot of restaurant money.  Take local transportation whenever possible.  That will again save you lots of taxi money (wasted for the most part). 

I also urge you to meet her parents, siblings and friends.  See how all of you interact.  See how she treats others. 

By all means visit her - but until she understands and is happy with how much money you can pay each visit you two have a long way to go until she can function stateside.  Whether it is a long or short visit, you should not be buying her much of anything, giving her unreal expectations or "living high on the hog," over there - especially when you can not really afford it.

Bringing a ring would be a serious miscalculation and wasted expense on your part.  You can buy a ring which is more than acceptable to a girl who really loves you there for certainly under $150, and closer to $50 when the time is right.  I believe you are putting the cart before the horse. 

Yes, it is important to spend sufficient time to know if the girl is right for you in Russia, but it is more important that you spend your time with your girl in Russia honestly.