Why Ukraine ?

[JayH]

In all fairness, I don't think you can blame everything that has occurred on Russia.


My husband half believes that Ukrainian politicians and oligarchs wanted a war.  It deflects from them having to do difficult things, such as wrest corruption to the ground, and, of course, the effects of such legislation would have deleterious effects on almost all of them.

Really--of all the many differences of opinion about contemporary Ukraine-your comments here are just plain ridiculous.
And-and-they are so far off topic in this thread I am not elaborating!

[Boethius]

Had Ukrainian nationalists from Svoboda not gone to Donbas after Yanukovych resigned, seeing what they could confiscate from those who had lost power, there would have been no war to begin with.  Russia fanned the flames, to be sure, but there were already dissenters because of this. 


No, I reject your assertion on ridiculousness.  I have been proven right in the past when accused of the same thing.


The reality is, Ukraine is run by politicians and a bureaucracy who, by and large, don't care about the population.  If they did, they would not be stealing everything not nailed down, and blocking attempts at meaningful reform.

[Anotherkiwi]

...The reality is, Ukraine is run by politicians and a bureaucracy who, by and large, don't care about the population.  If they did, they would not be stealing everything not nailed down, and blocking attempts at meaningful reform.

Serious question, then - how can this be stopped?  Surely by now the members of the Rada (at least) know what Western nations want Ukraine to do if it is to become any sort of meaningful player in the Europe of the future.  I realise that corruption is endemic, and that most politicians have their snouts as deeply in the trough as any of the oligarchs, but do they want their country to succeed in shaking off the renewed threat of Russian imperialism or not?  Do they not realise just how close their country is to tipping back into the Soviet orbit?  Or do they just not care, so long as it happens after they're dead (having fleeced a few more millions or billions in the meantime)?

If it's the latter, and they simply don't care about the future of their own country, why should we?  Their own people need to take a stand - Maidan II, if you like.  If I had the money, I would try to do something meaningful to help.  Unfortunately, I'm not Bill Gates.

[CaptB]

I usually only come here once a year now.......to proclaim that the wife and I have (made-it, endured:-).......one more year of marriage (13 years and counting). But I asked a simple question.......the first post on this thread.......and a political discussion.......pretty much unrelated to the original topic has ensued. On the old RWG board........and on this forum........initially..........threads were "actually" monitored. If the topic gets "off-topic".......folks in charge of monitoring certain threads would get the thread......."back on topic". But this not happening here. Folks go off on a tangent..........because they like to hear the "sound of their own voice". They don't seem to really care about the "real" subject at hand........finding a partner......in this case........from the FSU. I am sorry "DAN"..........the owner (still?????) of this forum.......but I long for the days of the RWG (Russian Women Guide)............not because I am living in the past.......but because the RWG was small (350 - 450 members).......intimate.......and effective. Guys were not just flapping their gums.........they were (a large percent) "actually" visiting FSU/W. Making mistakes for sure.......but taking chances........having experiences (good & bad).......which equals.........learning.


Geezers like me.......married for 13 years (RW).........and recently two guys with 17 year marriages.......CONGRATULATIONS !!!!!!!! GUYS. Don't seem to matter here.
I have helped a few guys over the years to become successful in this endeavor. A few have become close friends. But those actually seeking help....are becoming few........and far between. If I were the owner of the forum........I would be concerned.........about all of the bull$hit..........but where is the "substance" of information about the subject.....at hand. Not many are "focused" here........................................then they wonder why...........things go awry. I was going to start a thread about "why" I don't care much about lending a little hand to those folks who would like it.........because you have to "wade" and Dig" too much to get to a basic idea in a particular thread. Off-Topic is what almost all threads are about. Not sticking to the subject..........exhaust me. Even when you "ask" folks to stick to the subject matter of a thread........"YOU" initiated...............they blow you off. This forum could be 10 times more useful & effective to those who care about actually finding a FSU/W ........................but too many folks here..........just want to sound-off.........and not focus on the real reason this forum came into existence.


Capt B


For the few who really care about this (sometimes very difficult) process........good luck to you.

[Anotherkiwi]

I usually only come here once a year now.......to proclaim that the wife and I have (made-it, endured:-).......one more year of marriage (13 years and counting). But I asked a simple question.......the first post on this thread.......and a political discussion.......pretty much unrelated to the original topic has ensued.

...

For the few who really care about this (sometimes very difficult) process........good luck to you.

It's not that anyone particularly wants to go off topic, but the political situation is now way different from what it was when you made your original visits (and from when I made mine).  This means that many more people are actually weighing up whether or not it's worthwhile to make the effort to a) search and b) visit, rather than simply searching (many, MANY people) and visiting (very few) as they did in the past.

Most regular posters here have fairly strong opinions one way or the other, and that spills over into just about every thread.  It doesn't mean that those people don't want to share information and help where they can, but those feelings are obviously going to be noticed by new members/lurkers, and it may make some of them think twice about even beginning to search.

[Gator]

Serious question, then - how can this be stopped? 

Start with the police.  Pay them enough to live without bribes. 

Select the best (Eliot Ness) for task forces with immense power to investigate.  Then punish severely those who are caught.   

It will spread.  It will take years and years, however, maybe a generation. 

[Boethius]

Serious question, then - how can this be stopped?  Surely by now the members of the Rada (at least) know what Western nations want Ukraine to do if it is to become any sort of meaningful player in the Europe of the future.  I realise that corruption is endemic, and that most politicians have their snouts as deeply in the trough as any of the oligarchs, but do they want their country to succeed in shaking off the renewed threat of Russian imperialism or not?  Do they not realise just how close their country is to tipping back into the Soviet orbit?  Or do they just not care, so long as it happens after they're dead (having fleeced a few more millions or billions in the meantime)?

If it's the latter, and they simply don't care about the future of their own country, why should we?  Their own people need to take a stand - Maidan II, if you like.  If I had the money, I would try to do something meaningful to help.  Unfortunately, I'm not Bill Gates.

At this point, the oligarchs control regions of Ukraine, and they have their own militias.  They are entrenched.  Yanukovych, though corrupt himself, did some work to dislodge them.  That is why the oligarchs initially funded Euromaidan.  Anyone who denies this is denying reality.  For example, under Yanukovych, foreign banks were invited into Ukraine in much larger numbers than in the past.  Across the street from where my better half lived were huge factories, that, before Euromaidan, had been converted into a few blocks of banks, all but one, foreign.  All of those banks are now gone. 


Yanukovych did many things which were undemocratic, particularly in terms of the media, and he did many things which hurt the average Ukrainian, but he did do some things to try to remove oligarchical influence.

I don't believe the oligarchs can be removed without a civil war.  See Donbas (funded by the Donbas oligarchs and, rumour has it, Yanukovych, even before the Russians agitated and invaded).  I think the only way to change things is to create a federal system, as in Canada.  Allow the oligarchs to control different regions, then take them out slowly, one by one. 

[Boethius]

I usually only come here once a year now.......to proclaim that the wife and I have (made-it, endured:-).......one more year of marriage (13 years and counting). But I asked a simple question.......the first post on this thread.......and a political discussion.......pretty much unrelated to the original topic has ensued. On the old RWG board........and on this forum........initially..........threads were "actually" monitored. If the topic gets "off-topic".......folks in charge of monitoring certain threads would get the thread......."back on topic". But this not happening here. Folks go off on a tangent..........because they like to hear the "sound of their own voice". They don't seem to really care about the "real" subject at hand........finding a partner......in this case........from the FSU. I am sorry "DAN"..........the owner (still?????) of this forum.......but I long for the days of the RWG (Russian Women Guide)............not because I am living in the past.......but because the RWG was small (350 - 450 members).......intimate.......and effective. Guys were not just flapping their gums.........they were (a large percent) "actually" visiting FSU/W. Making mistakes for sure.......but taking chances........having experiences (good & bad).......which equals.........learning.


Geezers like me.......married for 13 years (RW).........and recently two guys with 17 year marriages.......CONGRATULATIONS !!!!!!!! GUYS. Don't seem to matter here.
I have helped a few guys over the years to become successful in this endeavor. A few have become close friends. But those actually seeking help....are becoming few........and far between. If I were the owner of the forum........I would be concerned.........about all of the bull$hit..........but where is the "substance" of information about the subject.....at hand. Not many are "focused" here........................................then they wonder why...........things go awry. I was going to start a thread about "why" I don't care much about lending a little hand to those folks who would like it.........because you have to "wade" and Dig" too much to get to a basic idea in a particular thread. Off-Topic is what almost all threads are about. Not sticking to the subject..........exhaust me. Even when you "ask" folks to stick to the subject matter of a thread........"YOU" initiated...............they blow you off. This forum could be 10 times more useful & effective to those who care about actually finding a FSU/W ........................but too many folks here..........just want to sound-off.........and not focus on the real reason this forum came into existence.


Capt B


For the few who really care about this (sometimes very difficult) process........good luck to you.

You got your answer.  Then the topic veered off. 


But your original topic question was answered. 

[Boethius]

Start with the police.  Pay them enough to live without bribes. 

Select the best (Eliot Ness) for task forces with immense power to investigate.  Then punish severely those who are caught.   

It will spread.  It will take years and years, however, maybe a generation.

The police, the bureaucracy - that's easy.  It is the big corruption, which distorts the economy and affects the lives of ordinary Ukrainians, that has to change, or the country is doomed.

[CaptB]

Boethius,


You said I received my "1" single reply. A single reply does not "a discussion"........make. To imply that I should be satisfied......is ridiculous. You are free to start as many threads as you wish. Watering down every single topic on the board.....with   discussions discourages folks who are interested in a given topic......because they have to wade through a hundred    replies to find anything relevant. There are rules here about taking over a thread with    entries. They just are not being enforced. I would say to "Dan"......the owner (still ?)........you have probably lost more than a few customers who really care about obtaining info. here.........relevant to pursuing FSU/W.......which is mostly what this board is about.


I noticed you are listed as a "hero member".........with over 10,000 posts.......but you choose not to disclose whether or not you have ever been to the FSU. Its kind of to evaluate any of your contributions......when you choose to hide your experiences (if any)......that have do with the subject at hand.


A a hot-air balloon is a flying machine.........with great volume. But many may accept the premise that a jet........with considerably "less volume".......may actually be more efficient :-)


Does not make me right or wrong in my assessments of any given (RWD) subject matter. But I choose (like most here)........to "not hide my credentials.


Marc
Age 64
8 visits to Russia
Married to a Russian women for over 13 years
Reside in Michigan


I always choose to listen to many points of view. No......I am not satisfied with "one reply". Are you ?


Capt B

[Boethius]

You received four replies before ML's post and several thereafter.

I choose not to post my visits because I lived in the USSR. I married before any of you even thought of FSUW and likely had visions of them looking like Mrs. Khrushchev. I also never pursued a female. So really it's all irrelevant.

[JayH]

. Watering down every single topic on the board.....with   discussions discourages folks who are interested in a given topic......because they have to wade through a hundred    replies to find anything relevant. There are rules here about taking over a
 thread with    entries. They just are not being enforced. I would say to "Dan"......the owner (still ?)........you have probably lost more than a few customers who really care about obtaining info. here.........relevant to pursuing FSU/W.......which is mostly what this board is about.

I noticed you are listed as a "hero member".........with over 10,000 posts.......but you choose not to disclose whether or not you have ever been to the FSU. Its kind of to evaluate any of your contributions......when you choose to hide your experiences (if any)......that have do with the subject at hand.


A a hot-air balloon is a flying machine.........with great volume. But many may accept the premise that a jet........with considerably "less volume".......may actually be more efficient :-)


Does not make me right or wrong in my assessments of any given (RWD) subject matter. But I choose (like most here)........to "not hide my credentials.


Marc
Age 64
8 visits to Russia
Married to a Russian women for over 13 years
Reside in Michigan


I always choose to listen to many points of view. No......I am not satisfied with "one reply". Are you ?


Capt B

Well -- you really do want to persist.
The reply above is directed at Boethius- and you comments show that you fail to read much on the forum.

But-- that just shoes a pattern of ignorance.
You while about the replies-- yet fail to see that your insulting ,ignorant,derogatory,insensitive remarks about Ukraine  were what bought the replies.

You then made a half hearted apology if you had caused offence-- while within minutes in another thread you mocked those that were critical of you in this thread-that is not much of an apology or any sign of contrition.
Now you are continuing crying ( whingeing) that others have commented on "your" thread about matters you consider irrelevant.
Like a lot of others-- you don't see or understand that Russia is waging war in Ukraine- and there is nothing "nice" about that.
    If you had been reading the forum-- a lot of material has been linked through posts here- so there is no excuse to live in a bubble of ignorance.

[CaptB]

I re-read my original post. I feel for the situation in Ukraine. But every thread on the board does not have to be about the conflict there. I fail to see where I made any derogatory statements against Ukraine. On the contrary......we have several friends and relatives living there. If I am insensitive.....because I don't want to discuss the Ukraine situation on "every single thread".....than I guess I am. I get that the first few comments stating the situation in Ukraine......"is" relevant as a reason to visit Ukraine. My complaint is that it almost always......takes on a life of its own. I never made a derogatory comment about Ukraine.....that is silly. I do take issue when you are called insensitive........if you want to discuss another issue........other than the conflict.........


Capt B

[krimster2]

why not Russia?

Turn on a Russian TV set, since all TV stations are owned and operated by the Kremlin, there is non-stop anti-Western propaganda, does this make you feel comfortable? do you feel comfortable marrying someone who has been immersed in this propaganda and giving this person total control over your financial future? 

It costs several hundred dollars and some paperwork to get a visa to Russia, over a long period you may do this many times, do you feel happy about giving many hundreds or even thousands of dollars to a government that hates your country and culture?

There is no Visa needed for Ukraine, and instead of hating Western culture, Ukraine loves it!  Russia is also a police state.  It is the only FSU country where the police have hassled me just because I was a foreigner.  I lived in Ukraine for three years, walked by the police station almost every day, was never, ever bothered by them, my 3rd day in St Pete’s and I was nearly arrested for being a foreigner and taking pictures of public monuments (nearby Russians were doing the same). 

nahhh, I’d choose Ukraine over Russia any time!

[Muzh]

Let's get this straight.  I have a low regard for your Russian government.   The world would be a better place if Putin retired.  But he can not, knowing that the next man would likely imprison him and strip him of his wealth.  I just hope his aspirations are not much more than what we see. 

Boy, you missed that one by a nautical mile.


Let's get a bit more graphic.


What normally happens when a Don dies (either from natural causes or "natural" causes?)
A turf war!! Duh!!


Now, imagine a turf war and nuclear weapons.


Do you want to re-assess your statement?


Edit to add: I was implying that Russia (and Ukraine) are two mafia states. Hope that was clear.

[CaptB]

Krimster2,


I can't control what "Russian" politicians do or think.....any more than with our own (US) politicians. The Russian "people" (non-politicians) do not hate US citizens. They have always been friendly, gracious and welcoming. I speak from "experience". My wife is Russian, our relatives and a few hundred friends and acquaintances. But mostly my opinion is formed by "8" visits to Russia. I see you have not made any trips to either Russia...........or Ukraine.


Capt B

[mhr7]

There is no Visa needed for Ukraine, and instead of hating Western culture, Ukraine loves it!  Russia is also a police state.  It is the only FSU country where the police have hassled me just because I was a foreigner.  I lived in Ukraine for three years, walked by the police station almost every day, was never, ever bothered by them, my 3rd day in St Pete’s and I was nearly arrested for being a foreigner and taking pictures of public monuments (nearby Russians were doing the same). 

nahhh, I’d choose Ukraine over Russia any time!

Russians don't hate Western culture at all. I've been here 2 years and have never been hassled by the police (or anyone else for that matter). I've been hassled at Ukrainian airports by customs on 3 occasions though, never in Russia. 

[krimster2]

dude, I freakin lived in Ukraine for 3 years, bought and sold Real estate there and founded the largest software development co in Crimea, this is not in my profile, so sorry.  your mileage may vary about how welcome you are in Russia, I almost got into a fight twice with drunk locals how thought it'd be real cool to impress their friends by harassing foreigners, I know of an American in Sevastopol who got his neck broken when he was pushed down some stairs by similar types, the Russian people are very polite to your face, but don't turn your back on them

[krimster2]

"Russians don't hate Western culture at all."

HAHAHA, you just removed any credibility you may have had.  I've actually heard Russians tell their children not to use the slang word "OK" because it's "Western", heard it with my own ears.  Here's a trivial example of how Russians are fond of Western culture:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/russia/11962793/Crimea-leader-bans-schools-from-celebrating-Halloween-as-it-undermines-Russian-values.html

I could put about 100 examples like the above it's so rampant there, so get real about "Russians not hating Western Culture"

[LAman]

Russians don't hate Western culture at all. I've been here 2 years and have never been hassled by the police (or anyone else for that matter). I've been hassled at Ukrainian airports by customs on 3 occasions though, never in Russia.

To be quite honest, a few years back I was hassled in St Pete's constantly by police asking to see my papers. Also, while taking pics I was nearly arrested( I think), confronted but my lack of understanding what is being said and my only saying passport... passport... they gave up on me. But this year spending over 2 months in Russia and not once being even looked at by police, let alone asking to see my papers. I was around many people who knew I was an American but never anything negative.
In all my time in Ukraine I was never stopped by any police for any reason, although my taxi's were stopped repeatedly for inspection of license($$).

[LAman]

"Russians don't hate Western culture at all."

HAHAHA, you just removed any credibility you may have had.  I've actually heard Russians tell their children not to use the slang word "OK" because it's "Western", heard it with my own ears.  Here's a trivial example of how Russians are fond of Western culture:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/russia/11962793/Crimea-leader-bans-schools-from-celebrating-Halloween-as-it-undermines-Russian-values.html

I could put about 100 examples like the above it's so rampant there, so get real about "Russians not hating Western Culture"

Krimster, I can give a hundred examples about Russians loving Western culture. You will find lovers and haters everywhere. Even in US there are people who hate the country and people who love the country.
I would more likely believe someone who lives in Russia to tell me their thoughts and experiences. My close friend has been in Moscow for nearly 3 years....and loving it!!! Even buying Real Estate.
Ever been in a McDee's in any FSU country??? They are PACKED!!! KFC????  BK???? God they hate that culture!!

[mhr7]

"Russians don't hate Western culture at all."

HAHAHA, you just removed any credibility you may have had.  I've actually heard Russians tell their children not to use the slang word "OK" because it's "Western", heard it with my own ears.  Here's a trivial example of how Russians are fond of Western culture:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/russia/11962793/Crimea-leader-bans-schools-from-celebrating-Halloween-as-it-undermines-Russian-values.html

I could put about 100 examples like the above it's so rampant there, so get real about "Russians not hating Western Culture"

McDonalds, Subway, KFC, Burger King, Pepsi, Coke, Budweiser, baseball caps with American team logos, I-phones, I-pads, American music on the radio, the latest American films at the theater, American TV shows easily the most popular, no restrictions on English (in fact many public schools have English camps during the summer), had Halloween parties the last 2 years at work for kids, etc,etc.

Crimea is just a very small (apparently shitty) part of Russia. Don't generalize.

[Boethius]

Mendy, who lives in Russia, has posted about some of the negative experiences he has endured as an American living in Russia.  He is fluent in Russian and absolutely loves Russia, too.

[krimster2]

McDonald's?  Glad you mentioned it, please take note:

http://www.npr.org/2014/10/27/359233363/closed-mcdonalds-in-moscow-taken-as-a-political-message

http://fortune.com/2014/11/19/moscows-first-mcdonalds-reopens-after-90-day-closure/

if you want to eat a "Gamburger" we have nice Russian ones for you now tovarisch!

[mhr7]

McDonald's?  Glad you mentioned it, please take note:

http://www.npr.org/2014/10/27/359233363/closed-mcdonalds-in-moscow-taken-as-a-political-message

http://fortune.com/2014/11/19/moscows-first-mcdonalds-reopens-after-90-day-closure/

if you want to eat a "Gamburger" we have nice Russian ones for you now tovarisch!

2014? Right after the sanctions and done by the government, not the people. What's your point? Where I live McDonalds is always busy and open 24/7.