Planning a first visit

[jone]

I have a Russian wife and I did ask her what free bag meant. She didn't
understand the reference or the context of what you said. She doesn't
participate here and has no interest to do so.

I am very happily married and my profile clearly says that I am married
0-2 years (it will be two years in 6 days), my spouse is from Russia and
that my trips are more than 10.
I am slightly taller than 2 meters (not in profile info)

My wife is very pretty and she is only 41 years old. Do you really think that if I
had a twin brother (I  don't) that a 41 year old Russian woman wouldn't
be interested in him? I'm not Brad Pitt but I don't look like whoever Steve is
either.

Here is a photo of myself and our son who is 18 months old




I am here because I received valuable advice here when I was searching and
that I thought that I should help others to find the happiness that I have found.

Bill, you are a lucky man.  I am very happy for you.

[Yes]

The member with nickname YES is not Russian...Russian never speak like he does..
And I think I know  who is it.

да, я не Русский. Я сказал, что я могу говорить по-Русски, а не я Русский. Я живу в России...давно. поэтому я могу говорить по-Русски.
 
I will speak English from here for the benefit of the vast majority of readers. Plus, I speak English better than Russian, but my Russian is pretty good. Your comment about Russians never speaking that way is wacky.

In 2011 moderator blocked one unstable man at this website who had  names as( Going to Russia,Going to Moldova,enot)Unfortunately this man has a nervous palsy and his real name is Steve Karl Herman.He lived in Michigan  but he moved to Las vegas view yeras ago after that. So you can check his IP address and you will  find he occupied this site again.
My guess  his new name  is 2tallBill.

You are obviously having a problem with some guy.

First of all, leave 2tallBill alone. He is not THAT guy nor was he ever that guy.

Secondly, you (or whomever) can check my IP address and you will again see that 1) I live in Russia, and 2) I also am not THAT guy.

To be honest, I'm not sure what I said that set you off here like this. Was it that I don't think Ukrainian women are better looking and better wives? Sorry, but I think it's all individual, and I thought it was a silly comment by the person who said it.  And I can't think of anything else I said really that bad or untrue. I'll defend any of what I said.

Furthermore, if anyone can really defend that statement, especially guys with Russian wives, then you are just being a troll.

He trys to find any  russian for long period of time  but no one want to have any relationship with him.He absolutely in the bad condition.He doesn't have any friends even.His mental condition isn't work properly. Unfortunately no one can help him.One interpreter said about him as  NO one want to have free bag in their lives.
He dreams to find any russian  women who will care about him, but it's  unreal dream.He is sitting all the days before computer and writing thousand nasty comments about everything.  He also registered under different nick names and trys to discuss with himself.I am absolutely positive that no way for him to have any relationship with russian.Sincerely honest...

I want a free bag. 

I don't know this guy, and I sure as hell don't know you. Your anger or frustration has you looking anywhere for some way to get at this guy.

This guy seems like a jerk, but it's your problem and don't come here and start accusing people of doing something when you have no idea who anyone is. And that includes me.

I have a lovely RW in my life and many friends here. I'm in excellent health and can run the averge punter here into the ground. I also help people here in Russia, way more than any expat you'll ever know and I'm very fond of the culture and the people.

You need to step back and get a grip.

[Yes]

Seems I have some catching up to do in this thread. I'll start here:

Da (Yes)

Whew, thanks for clearing that up

You really don’t know very much about American beers, now do ‘ya?  All that ale warmin’ on the stove musta’ dulled the ole gullivar a bit, forget about which mass market beer sells the most, I don’t know anyone who touches that stuff, here, this’ll help:

http://www.beeradvocate.com/lists/style/38/
http://www.ratebeer.com/Ratings/TopAmerican.asp

I am pretty much up on the mirco breweries in America. I have knocked back a few in my time. And yes, not bad at all.

However, when the best selling beer is basically water, you might want to spare me your advice. I like neither Baltika nor Obolon and much prefer anejo tequila of a certain quality when I do imbibe.

Anyhow, you shouldn’t have to go to Bletchley Park and dig up the ole’ Enigma Secret Decoder Ring, it’s my attempt at phonetic Russian, which if you’re a Russian speaker, to, chto vy mozhete ponyat! (I don’t remember how to use my keyboard in Cyrillic, I did many years ago, but forgot, and I’m too lazy to go and learn it again)

Did you really have to explain this to me?

Anyhow, seems to me that your message(s) are really about your antagonism about anything not Russian, which of course means just about everything.

Seriously?

Again, I said that Ukrainian women are not any more beautiful than Russian women nor do they make better wives than Russians. The most antagonistic comment came from lovely Mila IMO. If it had come from ugly Boris, I doubt we're having this conversation.

It's just a matter of guys protecting a female from the evil new poster, I get that.

If what I said was antagonistic, then your definition is much different than mine. I call it the truth; каждому свое.

So what’s your story moy droog?  Have you gone over to the dark side?

You mean America .

пока нет, мой друг

[Yes]

It was interesting to read this Russia vs. Ukraine discussion in the dating context. I would strongly recommend coming to Russia or (if you want to visit Ukraine) then go to Western Ukraine only. Western UA it's places like Lvov, Uzhgorod, Ternopol and the neighboring oblasts (regions). Though it might be more difficult to get to Russia visa-wise etc., but it's worth it. It's silly to discuss looks of RW vs. UW. It's a matter of personal taste. Also in Ukraine about a third of the population are ethnic Russians, so keep that in mind too.

I agree 100%.

It's much safer in Russia (I'm talking about Moscow region).

I didn't find Ukraine all that dangerous, but yes, it is very safe in Russia/Moscow.

Certainly more than any big city in, say, America.

As someone who has been in several RU cities this year from Moscow, Novosibirsk to Sochi - I can confirm that lots of entrance to Metros and pedestrian underpasses have disabled access and lowered kerbs.

100% true.

Times - as they say are a changin' .

Constantly.

It seems to me though, that most of the board members here are mentally stuck in 2006.








 

[2tallbill]

whoops posted this in the wrong place

[papakota]

Yes,
I never said Ukraine was dangerous. If it was I wouldn't be traveling there. I just said that that it's more likely for a non-local to get into troubles in Ukraine because locals there aren't afraid they can get caught by the police since there's no police in Ukraine to begin with. Here in Moscow area heavy police presence is definitely a deterring factor.
You can't even walk safely in the Kiev center, since some car can run you over on the sidewalk, since their drivers aren't afraid to drive where pedestrians walk. I can't imagine something like that here. They say in Russia the roads are bad. They are great comparing to what kind of roads they have in Ukraine. If you come for a week, it might not matter. But what if you stay for 3 months. Or what if you have to even live for whatever reason with your wife in her country?

[HoundDaddyLee]

Yes,
I never said Ukraine was dangerous. If it was I wouldn't be traveling there. I just said that that it's more likely for a non-local to get into troubles in Ukraine because locals there aren't afraid they can get caught by the police since there's no police in Ukraine to begin with. Here in Moscow area heavy police presence is definitely a deterring factor.

It is amazing. Every time I have been to Ukraine I see plenty of police. Never felt any fear. I am sure the war zones in the East are dangerous. Never been to Russia so don't know about police presence there. I can say that in Odessa I saw as many police on the streets as I do in NYC and I consider NYC the safest MAJOR American city (Manhattan).


Your mileage may vary.


HDL

[papakota]

It is amazing. Every time I have been to Ukraine I see plenty of police. Never felt any fear. I am sure the war zones in the East are dangerous. Never been to Russia so don't know about police presence there. I can say that in Odessa I saw as many police on the streets as I do in NYC and I consider NYC the safest MAJOR American city (Manhattan).

I didn't say I was more afraid in Ukraine than here. I said that one is more likely to get in troubles in Ukraine and no one would even care. It's a pointless argument. One can come to Mexico and return safely and another person can visit Switzerland and get robbed. Does that mean that Mexico is safer than Switzerland? People in this thread try to present their own experiences as different from what I present. But it's pointless and my Mexico/Switzerland example demonstrates that.

[msmob]

I didn't say I was more afraid in Ukraine than here. I said that one is more likely to get in troubles in Ukraine and no one would even care. It's a pointless argument. One can come to Mexico and return safely and another person can visit Switzerland and get robbed. Does that mean that Mexico is safer than Switzerland? People in this thread try to present their own experiences as different from what I present. But it's pointless and my Mexico/Switzerland example demonstrates that.

...and yet you STILL suggest Russia may be safer / less likely to have troubles ???!!!


I have seen lunatic driving in Russia, too - Aren't you seeing the youtube crashcam compilations ? 

[papakota]

msmob,
We talk in circles. I've seen crazy driving also in the US, so what? Again, I'm not talking about a PARTICULAR case, I'm talking about a general tendency. And I'm sure that generally there's more order in Russia than in Ukraine. And it concerns everything - driving, medical care, general safety. Like I said, in my 3,5 years of living in Russia (I'm not even touching my 16 years of living in USSR), I've never seen anything remotely close to what I've seen in those several months I spent in Ukraine. A few years ago I seriously considered to relocate to Ukraine (my mom was born in Kiev, so unlike in Russia, in Ukraine I actually have a right to immediately ask for citizenship). But after I've seen what's going on in Kharkov and Kiev, my passion kinda lessened to put it mildly. Yes, anything can happen in any country, but I'm talking about a NORM. In the Kiev center it was normal in summer 2013 that you walk on a sidewalk and there's a luxury car driving behind your back, so you literally have to jump aside to not be run over by it. I've seen in Russian suburban trains that local police officers actually interfere and demand violators to stop smoking in trains. Never seen any kind of involvement like that in Ukraine. And in 3,5 years of living in Russia I was only stopped by police ONCE to get my papers checked on a street and in Ukraine it happened at least 5 times during those few months I was there. I think that in Belarus there's also order.  I heard of one local guy who was traveling from Moscow to Smolensk on a Belorussian train (to Brest). He was drunk and Belorussians almost kicked him out of the train (it's illegal to be drunk in public transportation in Russia). People get drunk on trains in Ukraine and even get violent and nobody cares. The freedom in Ukraine is a type of Somalian freedom. Money also plays an important role. Without money you can't run a country in an orderly fashion. In Ukraine there's no money. They simply cannot afford A, B and C. Even after all the sanctions against Russia and over a hundred of B dollars that went from here to foreign countries, still in Russia there's about 400B dollars in gold and foreign currency. In Ukraine it's 13B. Enough said.

[msmob]

msmob,
We talk in circles. ..

and yet you didn't actually deal with what I questioned and that's why I'll continually state that you are generalising and are as 'guilty' of making your experience be the correct one?


Do you doubt I had to give my details 3 times in four days to the Russian traffic police ?


Why do you think so many Russians have crash cams ? One reason is there are so many bogus claims ...Insurance for our new RAV4 in Russia is 120,000 Rubles - 4 times what we pay for an RR Evoque -in the UK,  with 4 named drivers as opposed to two in Russia




Please, lets be honest .. Ukraine is corrupt - so is Russia. If you keep your head down and don't 'annoy' someone with power - you can largely avoid these issues...have a great life in either


I encourage any member to visit both countries - staying away from 'disputed territory' and see any differences for themselves. Neither is dangerous - as far as I'm concerned and the people - will be glad of your visit - if you show interest in their lives and culture.


Despite being 'gobby' on here - I don't get engaged in politics and if asked if I like Putin  / Poroshenko - I can honestly say I don't respect many Politicians


What has Russia's healthier finances got to do with the partners some of us might be seeking ?


As far as I'm concerned - I'm an 'ol git - the woman I searched for would have lived a considerable time and been educated in the Soviet era and they tend to have similar outlooks whether they are from BL, RU, UA, etc.,

[Trenchcoat]

On my two trips to Ukraine I would say its generally safe so long as you stick to the airport cities. Away from there it starts to get more desolate. Nikolaev was ok as although a lot less spoke English than Odessa it was still quite decent as a touristy destination mainly for natives though. I found with Ukrainian cities as no doubt is the case with all FSU cities is that they are well spread out so getting to where you want to be/getting lost is the main concern if your being dropped off by public transport. I did an overnight bus from Odessa to Nikolaev which was ok but its not the sort of thing I would care to repeat, the others on the bus were civilised enough but only an unofficial taxi guy at the drop of in Nikolaev, fortunately he turned out to be ok but a bit of a petrolhead, his car filled up from the boot not the side where the petrol flap was and he drove like a nutter, fortunately it was late at night so the roads were pretty clear. The 200 Hrivna was not too bad as hotel was quite a distance from the bus drop off, I would say 5 miles easy. Make sure to keep your stuff well conceal, travel light as you can, and confirm price in hrivna before agreeing to trip for anyone considering going to FSU. Also, try to avoid unofficial taxis wherever possible as they tend to charge more, sometimes a lot more.

Odessa I walk past a couple of policemen (Quite young, twenties I guess) normally I would avoid wherever possible. One gave a little look to the other but the other was dismissive and they passed by. I don't know if it was a 'shall we try in on with this guy and see if we can frisk him down' or just a misinterpretation. on my part. If it was the other police guy thought better of it, probably easier targets out there. I hear the police force is generally better than if used to be for that post uprising, apparently.

In general though no real trouble, worth those thinking of going to FSU to really consider keeping things tight as I could see how you could quickly get out off your depth out there. Part of what I'm doing for next time is preparing better to minimise the risks. Take some clothing that is smart enough but not obvious English signage on it for travelling - more casual if needs be and a thin travel wallet that conceals money and opens sideways so taxi drivers & shop/stall holders can't see if you have a load of money then try to charge more. In Odessa, I was going to buy 2 gifts then I think the stall holder saw how much money I had and tried to make out the price she had previously quoted was for one, I got myself a better deal elsewhere at nearly half the price.

So yeah, its easy for someone to say, 'hey here's a good idea go to some far flung part of FSU, wherever the girl is go visit her in her home city' but for those that have not been to FSU before its not necessarily going to be a joy doing that - easier to bring the girl to you as if you've not met her before there is no idea  if there is going to be any chemistry other than seeing if you get on well and seems nice on Skype. All in all though the FSU can be pleasant if you keep to the touristy areas, its not like visiting some failed state country or anything, but just take pre-cautions.   

[Yes]

and yet you didn't actually deal with what I questioned and that's why I'll continually state that you are generalising and are as 'guilty' of making your experience be the correct one?

Maybe, and I'm sure the pro Ukrainian honks on this board will disagree (wrongly), but Russia is ahead of the curve compared to Ukraine economically and with legal reforms, just the way it is. Just like Russia is behind the curve compared to the US, Germany, England, etc.

If you had really been to both countries recently, it would be hard to dispute this.

Do you doubt I had to give my details 3 times in four days to the Russian traffic police ?

I do. Sure, I guess it could happen. But, I don't know, nor have heard of anyone being stopped more than twice a year at most. Yet, somehow, you were stopped 3 times in 4 days, ok.

Why do you think so many Russians have crash cams ? One reason is there are so many bogus claims ...Insurance for our new RAV4 in Russia is 120,000 Rubles - 4 times what we pay for an RR Evoque -in the UK,  with 4 named drivers as opposed to two in Russia

Irrelevent to anything. Insurance in Russia has always been more expensive mainly because it's a fairly new system and cars are much more expensive compared to what they sell for in the UK or US.

The people I know who have video cams do so mostly so as not to pay bribes to the гаишник and for "bogus" claims as you suggested and want to have evidence to prove their case. Mostly for bribes though which happen more frequently, but are also slowly becoming a thing of the past.

If people in other populated countries had a similar number of video cams as they do in Russia you would see just as many, if not more, crazy things happening on the road IMO.

Please, lets be honest .. Ukraine is corrupt - so is Russia. If you keep your head down and don't 'annoy' someone with power - you can largely avoid these issues...have a great life in either

Sorry, and most on this board will not like to hear this, but Ukraine takes corruption to a whole other level.

This is easy to see when you are in both countries.

More real reforms have been put in place (yes, many more need to be implemented) in Russia than Ukraine.

But sure, if you mind your own business you can live anywhere. Whether that life is exactly the same can be a matter of opinion.

I encourage any member to visit both countries - staying away from 'disputed territory' and see any differences for themselves. Neither is dangerous - as far as I'm concerned and the people - will be glad of your visit - if you show interest in their lives and culture.

Sure, why not?

Despite being 'gobby' on here - I don't get engaged in politics and if asked if I like Putin  / Poroshenko - I can honestly say I don't respect many Politicians

Is that what you call it? I'd lean more to любящий спорить.

What has Russia's healthier finances got to do with the partners some of us might be seeking ?

IMO much.

I think the word we're looking for is desparation .

As far as I'm concerned - I'm an 'ol git - the woman I searched for would have lived a considerable time and been educated in the Soviet era and they tend to have similar outlooks whether they are from BL, RU, UA, etc.,

Okay.

[BillyB]

in Russia I was only stopped by police ONCE to get my papers checked on a street and in Ukraine it happened at least 5 times during those few months I was there.

I've seen cops misbehaving in Russia, Ukraine and Uzbekistan.  Good news for Ukraine. The police force got an overhaul. They fired the old and brought in new Ukrainian police trained with western standards. They are driving Toyotas which tells me western nations and Japan is assisting with abolishing corruption within the police force. I didn't see any motorist get waved over to collect bribes. I didn't see them stopping anybody to check their papers. It's going to be harder to get rid of corruption in the government but recently politician were required to disclose their assets in an effort to increase transparency.

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/fast-cars-space-tickets-luxury-mansions-not-so-secret-lives-ukraines-political-elite-1589162

[Anotherkiwi]

As someone who has been in several RU cities this year from Moscow, Novosibirsk to Sochi - I can confirm that lots of entrance to Metros and pedestrian underpasses have disabled access and lowered kerbs..

100% true.

Great! 

Times - as they say are a changin' ..  When were you last in Russia ?

2010, which is why I normally qualify my observations accordingly.  I'm very glad that this is one area where progress is being made.

[papakota]

msmob,
It's BY and not BL.

Probably in most cases it won't matter if you just visit Russia or Ukraine for a very short period of time. But if it's for a longer period, then it might matter (to what kind of country you're going). You'd be living in that country though as a visitor. What if you need an urgent surgery or something.

And of course, it's not a sure thing, but if you're from the West and you came to a very poor country like Ukraine, it might be easier to find some desperate woman who's willing to marry a first westerner that came along. But the question is... do you want this marriage to last or just to be a stepping stone for her? But when you come to a country that's better off then you're less likely to find a desperate woman who won't care about you, but only about how to emigrate to the West.

In summer 2005 I was dating one young woman in Kherson (Ukraine) and I felt like a walking ATM, 'cos literally we went into every grocery store we were passing by, and all I heard was - buy me this, buy me that. I'm not cheap and those things weren't expensive, but it was too much.

[msmob]

   [/size][/color]

 Maybe, and I'm sure the pro Ukrainian honks on this board will disagree (wrongly), but Russia is ahead of the curve compared to Ukraine economically and with legal reforms, just the way it is. Just like Russia is behind the curve compared to the US, Germany, England, etc.
 
 If you had really been to both countries recently, it would be hard to dispute this.

 
 
 If you paid attention to my trip reports you'd know I've been in the Kharkhov region of UKraine, Moscow, Novosibirsk and Sochi - so far - this year ..
 
 
 Russia is ONLY ahead due to natural resources .. legislature ? We'll cover that, further down ..
 
 
 
 
 [/size][/color]

 I do. Sure, I guess it could happen. But, I don't know, nor have heard of anyone being stopped more than twice a year at most. Yet, somehow, you were stopped 3 times in 4 days, ok.

 
 
 Oh dear, you are new, here ...here is a link to a thread you might like to read..
 
 
 [/size][/color]

 
 
 
 
  whilst at the Rugby Match - the Police decided our car was parked 'illegally' - sorted - after one of our passengers - who had invited us to the match - had a word with the Mayor's office..
 
 
 So now, you know ...  3 times in three days ...
 
 
 [/size][/color]

 Irrelevent to anything. Insurance in Russia has always been more expensive mainly because it's a fairly new system and cars are much more expensive compared to what they sell for in the UK or US.

 
 
 1/ Sept 2015 Ford Eco Sport - 15k Pounds in UK - 1.1 million Roubles Russia - then 35 percent different
 2/ Oct 2015 RR Evoque 54K Pounds as ordered in th UK - same spec Russia - 3.4 million Roubles - a heck of lot different
 3/ Nov 2016 - Toyota Rav 4 2.0 litre petrol automatic - fully spec'd with roof bars, etc. 32k Pounds UK..Russia 2 million Roubles... Please vist toyota.ru / toyota.co.uk to compare ..
 
 
 These are not 'opinions' - they are based on transactions I've done on deals negotiated..
 
 
 
 
 
 
 Insurance has been compulsory in Russia for how long, now ? The issue is the bogus claims / corruption and lack of competition in the market.
 
 
 [/size][/color]

 
 The people I know who have video cams do so mostly so as not to pay bribes to the гаишник and for "bogus" claims as you suggested and want to have evidence to prove their case. Mostly for bribes though which happen more frequently, but are also slowly becoming a thing of the past.

 
 
 Sorry, but these games still continue - the reason for their continued popularity is mis-use of power / 'friends' in the Police - as much as proving liability / non-liability
 
 [/size][/color]

 If people in other populated countries had a similar number of video cams as they do in Russia you would see just as many, if not more, crazy things happening on the road IMO.

 
 
 )) America is a very litigious country and yet crash-cams are not as prevalent ... Many - esp. male - FSU
 drivers are v.aggressive - speed and signalling direction change is rare.
 
 
 [/size][/color]

 Sorry, and most on this board will not like to hear this, but Ukraine takes corruption to a whole other level.

 
 
 I agree - the political upheavals - were supposed to cut this out ( - which nation’s govt. seeks ‘instability’ for Ukraine ?
 
 
 [/size][/color]

 This is easy to see when you are in both countries.
 
 More real reforms have been put in place (yes, many more need to be implemented) in Russia than Ukraine.

 
 
 'reforms' like legislation to counter decisions made by international courts / tribunals Russia agreed to bide by ? - that sort of 'legislation' ? ...hmm.
 
 
 [/size][/color]

 Is that what you call it? I'd lean more to любящий спорить.
 IMO much.
 
 I think the word we're looking for is desparation .
 
 Okay.
 

 
 
 I'm 'argumentative' when I see someone posting inaccurately ..hardly 'desperation'
 
 
 
 
 

 

[papakota]

Russia is ONLY ahead due to natural resources
 

You're confusing Russia with Kuwait. Advanced weapons, airspace technologies, nuclear technologies.

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-space-russia-idUSKCN0X600H

http://sputniknews.com/russia/201609071045041919-russia-defense-rosoboronexport-weapons/

My impression is that 90% of porn made in former USSR is produced in Russia (mostly in St. Petersburg) . I think 'cos it's illegal in Ukraine and Belarus. Well, it's probably legal in Baltic states, but US producers don't go there for some reason.

Also grain export.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-10-06/russia-upends-world-wheat-market-with-record-harvest-exports

[2tallbill]

Bill, you are a lucky man.  I am very happy for you.

Yeah, after just 9 short years I found a keeper 
I'm happy for me too. 

[Chicagoguy]

I didn't have many "9's" left and as it turns out I got lucky. Less than 1 year. Has worked out almost perfect for our 7 so far and looks clear for the long run.

[msmob]

You're confusing Russia with Kuwait. Advanced weapons, airspace technologies, nuclear technologies.

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-space-russia-idUSKCN0X600H

http://sputniknews.com/russia/201609071045041919-russia-defense-rosoboronexport-weapons/ 

Indeed, Papakota .. 'ONLY' was a big howler on my part ..


Grain:


http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-10-06/russia-upends-world-wheat-market-with-record-harvest-exports


Arms : #2 to USA


But these exports are dwarfed by Energy and Minerals, right ?

My impression is that 90% of porn made in former USSR is produced in Russia (mostly in St. Petersburg) . I think 'cos it's illegal in Ukraine and Belarus. Well, it's probably legal in Baltic states, but US producers don't go there for some reason.

Did I mention porn, or is it on your mind ? 

[papakota]

msmob,
The discussion was not about Russia's place in the world economy, but about its position vs. Ukraine, right?
My point was that natural resources aside, Russia's still far more developed (not only richer like Kuwait due to selling its oil). Or compare the situation in Venezuela and Russia and you'll see the difference very fast.

Forget the porn, it's a drop in sea anyway.

[msmob]

msmob,
The discussion was not about Russia's place in the world economy, but about its position vs. Ukraine, right?

Nope the OP simply wanted to know which place might be better to make his first place - hoping to meet a partner - Kyiv or Moscow ?


WE have taken the thread off tangent

My point was that natural resources aside, Russia's still far more developed (not only richer like Kuwait due to selling its oil). Or compare the situation in Venezuela and Russia and you'll see the difference very fast.

I seriously doubt the OP will feel Kyiv is third world  - compared to Moscow

[papakota]

Nope the OP simply wanted to know which place might be better to make his first place - hoping to meet a partner - Kyiv or Moscow ?
WE have taken the thread off tangent


I seriously doubt the OP will feel Kyiv is third world  - compared to Moscow

I don't think for westerner coming to meet a local lady geography in that sense should matter most. People here overstate the importance of visa, while being blind to more important things like personal safety and such.
I'll give you a good example. I don't need a visa to visit Canada, but I do need one to visit the US. I've been to both countries. And USA is much better, in my opinion. Visa is visa. It shouldn't be your top concern when you decide where to go to.

I never said that Kiev is third world comparing to Moscow. I said that a country economy of which is only based on natural resources would be in far worse situation than a current situation in Russia.

I don't know why people here get a feeling that I try to persuade someone to avoid Ukraine. The opposite is the truth. I think it's a great country to visit and Ukrainian women are great too for dating and marriage. I'm just being objective and try to show both sides of a coin.

[Trenchcoat]

I think you're right papakota, particularly on personal safety and such, people on here speak easily about '...just go blah, blah, blah' without considering some of these people on here will be first timers and could quickly get out of their depth. From what I've seen of it the FSU is reasonably safe, but a country that is vast and alien to first timers needs to be accounted for, otherwise it can be setting some folk up for a fall, so I think we need to think responsibly when suggestions are made that may be a bit far out for first time visitors.