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Author Topic: ukraines non dual nationality policy in practice  (Read 8570 times)

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Offline southernX

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ukraines non dual nationality policy in practice
« on: March 27, 2017, 09:57:11 PM »
query on ukraines non recognition of dual nationalities ??


who has practical experience of travelling into ukraine using their home countries passport while being the holder of a current ukrainian passport ?
& did you need a visa ??   if you applied did  you get it ?? etc

any experience of of how this plays out in real life practical terms , ??

we know ukraine does not recognise dual citizenships, but we also know many people who are ukraine citizens do have both and travel into ukraine

experiences please if you have any of how this is dealt with at customs/border entry points  in real time 

thanks SX
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Online BillyB

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Re: ukraines non dual nationality policy in practice
« Reply #1 on: March 27, 2017, 11:27:07 PM »
No experience yet but my wife is about to become an American citizen soon and may travel to Ukraine this summer. She's thinking about using her American passport, not because Ukraine will give her trouble but because she heard Ukrainians having trouble coming back into America due to Trump's tough immigration policies. I believe they were denied because they have a green card and living an extensive time outside the country but I don't know the whole story, just one side.

I suspect Ukraine will play nice with citizens of dual nationalities, especially of those from the West. They don't want bad publicity and are trying to gain sympathy for their struggles.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2017, 12:04:13 AM by BillyB »
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Offline JayH

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Re: ukraines non dual nationality policy in practice
« Reply #2 on: March 27, 2017, 11:50:02 PM »
SX --use Ukr passport to enter and leave Ukraine passport control --outside of that --use Aus passport.
The only tricky part I can see is that airlines want to see the right to enter before allowing you to board( check in).
I have had a query on leaving  -- in Kyiv -- after checking in -- and on entering secure area - they seem to do a ticket & passport match electronically --  and then through to official  passport exit point.
That check may be jut to see if the ticket is valid-- and I have remained curious as to it's purpose.
Why is it tricky? If  you show Aus passport   to airline because you need the Aus passport eligibility to enter destination/transit etc I am not 100% certain how that next check works !

I will pm you a link where it is discussed. My concern on this does not seem to have caused problems for Americans with the same issue.
I hope your not planning trip for anyone of call up age !! ( unless you already have it covered) !
SLAVA UKRAYINI  ! HEROYAM SLAVA!!!!
Слава Украине! Слава героям слава!Слава Україні! Слава героям!
 translated as: Glory to Ukraine! Glory to the heroes!!!  is a Ukrainian greeting slogan being used now all over Ukraine to signify support for a free independent Ukraine

Offline southernX

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Re: ukraines non dual nationality policy in practice
« Reply #3 on: March 28, 2017, 01:01:42 AM »
Quote
bb  She's thinking about using her American passport, not because Ukraine will give her trouble but because she heard Ukrainians having trouble coming back into America due to Trump's tough immigration policies. I believe

yes billy this is the same type of issue , its not about entering its about leaving ,

australia issues a visa in to the ukraine passport , this allows one to stay here in oz and have permanent residency , however once you have gained citizenship , this may well be void due to the granting of the citizenship and the australian passport

so a ukraine citizen with dual passports may be able to leave australia, and enter ukraine , but not leave ukraine without a visa doc for australia being valid so ukraien pasport is no good at present

then if you use your australian  passport , you need to apply for a visa, either on arrival or before you leave australia , thus in applying , you are asked to declare if you have dual citizenship and have you/will you /can you show evidence of having cancelled your ukraine passport .before the visa will be granted 

 that is ok , in itself however to sell property there you need id docs to prove ownership , these are usually passport,  national and internal , to not have them by canceling them then creates new issues etc within the country as you then cannot provide proof of ownership without issues etc

americans not needing visas to ukraine , sort of negates the issue for them

SX
« Last Edit: March 28, 2017, 01:03:48 AM by southernX »
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Offline southernX

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Re: ukraines non dual nationality policy in practice
« Reply #4 on: March 29, 2017, 11:43:05 PM »
follow up on this for others who may in the future  research or wish to know 

for all migrants living or arriving into australia
 the australian  permanent residency visa in their overseas home countries  passport [any country  ]  that initially allows them to live , enter and exit australia is  automatically cancelled upon the granting of australian citizenship , no matter if the overseas passport is still valid or not

SX

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Offline Anotherkiwi

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Re: ukraines non dual nationality policy in practice
« Reply #5 on: March 30, 2017, 06:21:03 PM »
follow up on this for others who may in the future  research or wish to know 

for all migrants living or arriving into australia
 the australian  permanent residency visa in their overseas home countries  passport [any country  ]  that initially allows them to live , enter and exit australia is  automatically cancelled upon the granting of australian citizenship , no matter if the overseas passport is still valid or not

Same thing here.  I imagine that it's pretty general.

Offline southernX

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Re: ukraines non dual nationality policy in practice
« Reply #6 on: April 02, 2017, 08:48:47 PM »
curently president poroshenko is putting abil to the rada to further  hamper dual citizenship of ukrainians

it reads as rather excessive imo

SX
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Offline ML

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Re: ukraines non dual nationality policy in practice
« Reply #7 on: April 03, 2017, 09:09:13 AM »
americans not needing visas to ukraine , sort of negates the issue for them

SX

No . . . I think most of the same issues apply to those who have or want to have both USA and Ukrainian citizenship.

We are wrestling with the issue, although it is not yet time.
Winston Churchill.  “The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter.”

Offline southernX

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Re: ukraines non dual nationality policy in practice
« Reply #8 on: April 03, 2017, 06:13:38 PM »
ML

how does your better half travel to ukraine ??  has she US citizenship yet ??  if so which passport does she use ?

being as one passport is likly in a maiden name , the newer passport is in the married name , seperate ticketing needs to be booked , if one wants to attempt  to use both ,

for example , here we can fly from melbourne to thailand, on oz passport , booked in name on australian passport,   then if you have pre booked online your next flights seperatly in the maiden name of the ukraine passport , you fly thailand to say kiev , boarding gates will not have issues , customs in thailand should not ,

question is if custom/border control in ukraine notice you left say 2 years ago  as the last stamp in your  ukraine  passport , they may well ask where have you been and why ??  its possible it may not be picked up , but if it is , technically you are a law breaker as a ukraine citizen holding a second passport , that now is liable for potential gaol time .

given US citizens dont need visas , i would think your wife could , arrive into ukraine on her US passport in her married name and no visa issues ,, however where was she born ??if in ukraine it will say on the passport and thus raise a red flag  at entry ?? 

SX   



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Offline Bounder

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Re: ukraines non dual nationality policy in practice
« Reply #9 on: April 03, 2017, 07:15:16 PM »
query on ukraines non recognition of dual nationalities ??


who has practical experience of travelling into ukraine using their home countries passport while being the holder of a current ukrainian passport ?
& did you need a visa ??   if you applied did  you get it ?? etc

any experience of of how this plays out in real life practical terms , ??

we know ukraine does not recognise dual citizenships, but we also know many people who are ukraine citizens do have both and travel into ukraine

experiences please if you have any of how this is dealt with at customs/border entry points  in real time 

thanks SX

You are right to be concerned about some of these questions. I don't know how it works in practice, but there looks like plenty of opportunities for extortion and bribes. It's Ukraine, aborderline failed state at this point, So be careful!

I suspect it would be easier if she can use a Ukrainian passport to travel.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2017, 07:19:45 PM by Bounder »

Offline ML

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Re: ukraines non dual nationality policy in practice
« Reply #10 on: April 03, 2017, 07:18:39 PM »
SX, to answer:

My wife will not change her name on any documents.
This is at my advice.
She is not yet USA citizen . . . and we are not sure she will be.
Concern is her holdings of Real Estate in Ukraine which includes farm land.
Current law does not allow owning farm land by non-Ukrainian citizens.

Even as USA passport holders do not need visa, the following problems arise for those attempting to hold dual USA-Ukraine citizenship, which is not legal:

If she tries to leave Ukraine on Ukraine passport, they will not allow boarding without visa to USA.

If she tries to leave Ukraine on USA passport, a computer check by authorities will show she is also a Ukrainian citizen . . . hence violating the law.

Doesn't matter if others have said they have not (as yet) encountered any problems.

I know people who claim their dogs as exemptions for tax returns . . . but some get caught.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2017, 07:20:25 PM by ML »
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Offline Boethius

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Re: ukraines non dual nationality policy in practice
« Reply #11 on: April 03, 2017, 07:25:47 PM »
You hit the nail on the head, ML. Most of the elite hold 2 or 3 foreign passports. That's the reason for the new law.

Bounder is mistaken because Ukraine already knows who holds foreign passports. If this law passes, watch for those with foreign passports to lose their Ukrainian situs properties.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2017, 07:34:17 PM by Boethius »
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Offline southernX

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Re: ukraines non dual nationality policy in practice
« Reply #12 on: April 03, 2017, 10:04:16 PM »
Quote
SX, to answer:

My wife will not change her name on any documents.
This is at my advice.
She is not yet USA citizen . . . and we are not sure she will be.

yes ML  i understand that and that was our view here until my wife obtained citizenship some years ago


Quote
Concern is her holdings of Real Estate in Ukraine which includes farm land.
Current law does not allow owning farm land by non-Ukrainian citizens.

same concerns here

Quote
If she tries to leave Ukraine on Ukraine passport, they will not allow boarding without visa to USA.


again similar issues , hence we looked at thailand as ukrainians only need a visa on arrival

Quote
If she tries to leave Ukraine on USA passport, a computer check by authorities will show she is also a Ukrainian citizen . . . hence violating the law.

given my wifes ukraine passport and her australian passport  have different surnames  and she was not born in ukraine which does show in both passports , authoritys may well not be able to know she has ukraine citizenship as well at point of entry and exit in ukraine


Quote
Doesn't matter if others have said they have not (as yet) encountered any problems.

again we agree , we have thought it better to cancel the ukraine passport , as it is wide open to risk otherwise within ukraine if a problem arises

even a simple small car accident may end up becoming a major problem if authoritys become involved etc

not worth the risk ioo

SX
« Last Edit: April 03, 2017, 10:06:56 PM by southernX »
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Offline ML

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Re: ukraines non dual nationality policy in practice
« Reply #13 on: April 05, 2017, 09:17:54 AM »
we have thought it better to cancel the ukraine passport , as it is wide open to risk otherwise within ukraine if a problem arises

SX

But without Ukraine Passport (citizenship), there is the cloud over ownership of farm land.
You said that affected your wife also.
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Offline southernX

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Re: ukraines non dual nationality policy in practice
« Reply #14 on: April 09, 2017, 06:54:40 PM »
yesML , we have sopught legal advice from ukraine to clarify the position on what foreign national can own or sell and the tax liabilitys of same if /when sold

that is not an easy question , either, but it is easier /more suitable problem than being detained over dual citizenship issues within ukraine

SX
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Offline southernX

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Re: ukraines non dual nationality policy in practice
« Reply #15 on: June 05, 2017, 10:46:39 PM »
Just as  future reference for other australians who may want to know how this progressed


To have my wifes ukrainian passport name changed into her married name  so it matches her australian passport we have had to complete the following process

First we needed to take all her ukrainian documents, birth certificate , marriage certificate etc that have been translated into english and certified by an approving translation agent to our state registry of births , deaths and marriages ,[each australian state has one and you must apply within your own state where you live or where married if you married within australia ]
 There we applied for a ''change of name certificate which costs $200

The change of name certificate must then be taken to the federal dept of foreign affairs in any state and be apostled so it is then legally recognised by ukrainian authorities at the ukraine embassy in canbera as a legit australian gov document to use in having a ukrainian passport name changed from the pre married name to a new married name


You must make an appointment with the dept of foreign affairs in any state to have your doc apostled , you can do it by mail in melbourne and sydney , but all other capitals it must be in person , having your name change certificate apostled will cost you $80
The aposltiing of your doc meets the legal requirements under the hauge convention of 2003 for recognition of foreign gov documents for ukraine

You must then apply in person in canberra at the only ukraine embassy in australia to have you passport name changed , they will need your current passport , all docs original birth , marriage , divorce docs from ukraine and take your photo to process your application , this  new passport process will take approx 60 days and you may have to collect it in person or they may choose to mail it to you

The embassy in canberra is not easy to deal with and getting correct information is not readily done by email or mail , only by phone or in person

Given ukraine does not recognise dual citizenship ,

It is our experience in australia  they therefore will not recognise an australian citizenship certificate , australian passport or marriage certificate as proof or a name change due to marriage

The path to a name change is different if you married in ukraine or you apply in ukraine , as there you need to have the internal passport name changed first then use the apostled docs as well as internal passport to achieve this

Given her new ukrainian passport name will match her australian passport into the future , all airline tickets will be booked in the same name and match either passport, ukraine has now been allowed legal entry into the EU , so legal travel to there is now allowed same as for australians , No visas required and travel back and forth should now be fine

Dual citizenship is not illegal for ukrainians,to the best of our discovery  we could not find any penalty for having dual citizenship , it does seem frowned upon and it can cause complications with land /legal issues ,

We also did not find any easy / quick or guaranteed process to cancel ukraine citizenship, in theory it is possible , but in practice ??  almost impossible 

Hope this might help some one into the future

SX
« Last Edit: June 05, 2017, 11:04:05 PM by southernX »
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Offline ML

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Re: ukraines non dual nationality policy in practice
« Reply #16 on: June 05, 2017, 11:21:56 PM »
WOW SX, why did your wife not keep her name before marriage to you?
That would have been much simpler.
And, if she owns or will inherit anything in Ukraine, not keeping her original name will cause a ton of problems.
Now her educational documents won't match up with her name on passports, etc., etc.
And, after possible divorce, she will want to go through this same mess again.
Winston Churchill.  “The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter.”

Offline southernX

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Re: ukraines non dual nationality policy in practice
« Reply #17 on: June 06, 2017, 01:11:43 AM »
Quote
WOW SX, why did your wife not keep her name before marriage to you?

simple answer is  she wanted to  ;D

  longer version is  that  we did get married and she then had a legaly recognisable australian document with her married name on it that she used to gain other australian documents , such as drivers licence , health cards, bank cards etc , she then wanted citizenshp and australian passport , again they all stem from the marriage certificate in her new married name

Quote
That would have been much simpler.

it possibly may have , but we will never know now what complications it may have invited long term either

Quote
And, if she owns or will inherit anything in Ukraine, not keeping her original name will cause a ton of problems.

no not really , with her new internal passport and international passport it wont be hard to change other legal docs within ukraine , at least no more difficult than when she originally got married in ukraine , legally it is relativly simple her on in

Quote
Now her educational documents won't match up with her name on passports, etc., etc.
  she has never used her education docs here anyway , she has changed her career altogether completly , so they are not a consideration of importance and again no difference than having gained them before a marriage in ukraine to a ukrainian
worldwide authoritys usually recognise marriage as a logical reason some education docs dont have matching names

Quote
And, after possible divorce, she will want to go through this same mess again
  cheerful bastard arnt you  :P  nah she knows me well enough by now lol

SX
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Offline ML

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Re: ukraines non dual nationality policy in practice
« Reply #18 on: June 10, 2017, 10:04:56 PM »
Not to belabor this, and I know you did the standard thing . . .
however, your rationale seemed to be started by:

"we did get married and she then had a legaly recognisable australian document with her married name on it"

Are you saying that in your country the woman is forced to take husband's last name?

I just double checked, and our Marriage Certificate says:
Groom: 'My Name'
Bride: 'Wife's name before we married'

She could have chosen to put my last name in the 'Bride' slot.
We, of course, had discussed this before, and I encouraged her to keep her previous name on all USA documents so it would match up with all existing Ukrainian documents with no need to change any previous documents.

When we get party invitations, etc., they come with Mr and Mrs 'My last name' but this is fine.  Many women are referred to socially and professionally by different names.
Winston Churchill.  “The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter.”

Offline southernX

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Re: ukraines non dual nationality policy in practice
« Reply #19 on: June 15, 2017, 09:02:15 PM »
ML  no problem with answering this

Quote
"we did get married and she then had a legaly recognisable australian document with her married name on it"

we have two marriage  certificates,

1st  is the fancy certificate you sign on the day of the marriage this has both our names before marriage and witnesses etc , just ceremonial only that is issued on the day by the person who married you , at that stage the marriage is not registered so that certificate  has no legal weight in law for identity purposes . it is purely for framing and display usually

2nd is the state gov official registered marriage certificate that has more detail and is recognised by all authorities within australia as a legal document for proof of name change /identity if you wish to use it as such on a 100 point proof of identity check list
this one is issued once the marriage is registered with the authorities and all information re persons on it are checked to be true and correct

things they check as below , should all be normal and seem standard but fraud can occur
ie the person conducting the marriage is legaly able to do so
the bride or groom have no impediments to the marriage that is being registered [ like still being married ]
witnesses are legally of age
bride & groom are of legal age etc

this second gov issued certificate is the one that is commonly used to show why a woman is using a ''married name ''legally as proof of identity within australia

Quote
Are you saying that in your country the woman is forced to take husband's last name?

no to the contrary , a woman is not forced to take her husbands name once married here  she can make her own choice with her surname usage ,husbands or maiden name can be used or anything else she may want to adopt  legaly really 
hence the issue with the ukraine embassy not recognising the new ''married name '' as it is not legally binding to take it , they dont recognise it as legal authority on a marriage certificate

the only reason we needed the gov here to provide a ''change of name certificate ''was to use it with the ukraine embassy , THEY  required it to change her name in her ukrainian passport , WE needed to do that so both her passports have matching names , this is purely for travel reasons only




SX

« Last Edit: June 15, 2017, 09:31:14 PM by southernX »
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Offline southernX

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Re: ukraines non dual nationality policy in practice
« Reply #20 on: October 18, 2017, 08:44:41 PM »
to come back to this topic and advise how it applied in practice on leaving and entering all countries on our recent travels

my wife now has both her ukrainian passports , internationl and internal in her married name , these both now match all her australian identity documents

we had no issues in either leaving or entering australia , and ukraine using both international passports  or any of the countires we have visited in the last few months

the customs control only wanted to check her passport from the country she was entering or leaving , the airlines wanted at checkin to see both passports in leiu of a visa being absent in the ''other international passport

much of the information on this subject we where told by travel agents , notaries , lawyers , proved to be incorrect

hope this thread will help in some way to others who may look for similar info in the future

SX



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Offline ML

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Re: ukraines non dual nationality policy in practice
« Reply #21 on: October 22, 2017, 11:54:04 AM »
SX, you have raised more questions in my mind than you have answered.

First you talked about two Ukrainian passports for her.

Then you talk about both international passports.

And why would she need to show both international passports to any one official or ticket person?

Show Ukrainian to enter and exit Ukraine.
Show Australian to enter and exit Australia.
Show Australian with visa to enter and exit any country where visa was needed.
Winston Churchill.  “The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter.”

Offline JayH

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Re: ukraines non dual nationality policy in practice
« Reply #22 on: October 22, 2017, 04:49:52 PM »
SX, you have raised more questions in my mind than you have answered.

First you talked about two Ukrainian passports for her.

Then you talk about both international passports.

And why would she need to show both international passports to any one official or ticket person?

Show Ukrainian to enter and exit Ukraine.
Show Australian to enter and exit Australia.
Show Australian with visa to enter and exit any country where visa was needed.
You are basically correct-- as I stated in my earlier post in the thread.

Now the tricky part -- when checking in with airline -- that is before immigration processing -- the airline staff need to be CERTAIN that you are eligible to enter the destination country  before issuing a boarding pass.
That may require you to show both passports at that point .

If there is a variation of names  compared to the ticket - that would be another complication.
EG  If coming from Australia and checking in -- you would need to show Ukrainian passport to prove the right to enter Ukraine -- but--  the ticket and passport name needs to match Australian document on exit through immigration and would need to be the Australian passport( the law requires you use only the eligible Australian document right to enter and exit Australia ).

Further -- when boarding the actual flight that will arrive in Ukraine -- airline staff should ( & usually do) check eligibility to enter .That is at the gate--ie the last possible point prior to boarding . For me-- that is a visa in the passport and it can take a little time for them to find it.

So-- when holding dual passports-- you would need to be paying attention!!  From what I hear -- Ukrainian immigration  officials take little interest in holding  multi passports-- at least with countries like Aus, US,Canada,EU etc 
For those wondering why any of this is important-- Ukraine does not recognise dual citizenship.


« Last Edit: October 22, 2017, 04:51:28 PM by JayH »
SLAVA UKRAYINI  ! HEROYAM SLAVA!!!!
Слава Украине! Слава героям слава!Слава Україні! Слава героям!
 translated as: Glory to Ukraine! Glory to the heroes!!!  is a Ukrainian greeting slogan being used now all over Ukraine to signify support for a free independent Ukraine

Offline southernX

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Re: ukraines non dual nationality policy in practice
« Reply #23 on: October 22, 2017, 04:57:21 PM »
You are basically correct-- as I stated in my earlier post in the thread.

Now the tricky part -- when checking in with airline -- that is before immigration processing -- the airline staff need to be CERTAIN that you are eligible to enter the destination country  before issuing a boarding pass.
That may require you to show both passports at that point .

If there is a variation of names  compared to the ticket - that would be another complication.
EG  If coming from Australia and checking in -- you would need to show Ukrainian passport to prove the right to enter Ukraine -- but--  the ticket and passport name needs to match Australian document on exit through immigration and would need to be the Australian passport( the law requires you use only the eligible Australian document right to enter and exit Australia ).

Further -- when boarding the actual flight that will arrive in Ukraine -- airline staff should ( & usually do) check eligibility to enter .That is at the gate--ie the last possible point prior to boarding . For me-- that is a visa in the passport and it can take a little time for them to find it.

So-- when holding dual passports-- you would need to be paying attention!!  From what I hear -- Ukrainian immigration  officials take little interest in holding  multi passports-- at least with countries like Aus, US,Canada,EU etc 
For those wondering why any of this is important-- Ukraine does not recognise dual citizenship.

yes jay , totally correct  :) 

ML  both ukrainian passports refers to her international and internal passports ...you need the internal passport for your major identity doc within ukraine and to apply for an international passport , so both must have same name after marriage

australian passport has her residency visa cancelled after she gained australian citizenship , so when airlines  look on leaving ukraine to gain boarding pass and checkin they need to see both passports for ukraine and australia

vice , versa when leaving australia  for ukraine as final destination

 any other questions ?? 


« Last Edit: October 22, 2017, 05:03:15 PM by southernX »
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Offline ML

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Re: ukraines non dual nationality policy in practice
« Reply #24 on: October 22, 2017, 07:07:03 PM »
any other questions ??

Not now . . . this is giving me a headache . . . as my spouse will be facing same issues in a couple of years. !!!!!

I think she will have less complications since visa not needed for  USA passport holders to gain entry to Ukraine.  So no need for airlines to see her Ukrainian passport when boarding flights in USA.
Winston Churchill.  “The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter.”

 

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