St. George's Ribbon

[jone]

AK,

I'm not sure that Bill is clear on what the St. George Ribbon was used for in Russia in the past couple of years.

[msmob]

AK,

I'm not sure that Bill is clear on what the St. George Ribbon was used for in Russia in the past couple of years.

I, on the other hand I'm QUITE sure our Beel knows it's traditional use.  That is used by 'rebels'in Ukraine - suggesting they are fighting 'Nazis' is VERY MUCH their ignorance and stupidity.

[jone]

I, on the other hand I'm QUITE sure our Beel knows it's traditional use.  That is used by 'rebels'in Ukraine - suggesting they are fighting 'Nazis' is VERY MUCH their ignorance and stupidity.

I certainly didn't understand your post.  Perhaps others might, but your convoluted language use coupled with an inability to properly share your ideas leads people like myself to believe you are into your cups.  Perhaps you could rephrase your post in a more sober fashion.

If you are saying that the use of the St George's Ribbon in Russia is one of solidarity in fighting the Nazis of the Ukraine Maidan Rebellion then I would have to agree with you.  I was in Russia two years ago on Victory Day and many people were wearing the ribbons and when I inquired they said that they were wearing the ribbons to show support for the rebels fighting in Donetsk and Lugansk.  However if you are arguing that the St. George Ribbons have been around a lot earlier, while you would be right on principle, you would be wrong on the Ribbon's recent re-emergence.  It was brought out specifically to bolster nationalism and the defeat of the Ukrainian Hitlerites.

I took AK's statement, about his reason for walking away, to be one of support for Ukraine and not necessarily against Russians.

[2tallbill]

AK,

I'm not sure that Bill is clear on what the St. George Ribbon was used for in Russia in the past couple of years.

I was there with Russians, Ukrainians, Moldovan's and every other stripe of FSU
person. They called it a victory medal for victory day. It was a celebration of
victory over the Nazi's. It wasn't nationalistic or political at all. They would
have lost a third of the crowd if it was.

[Anotherkiwi]

I took AK's statement, about his reason for walking away, to be one of support for Ukraine and not necessarily against Russians.

Exactly! Thank you, jone.

To me, having that flag in such close juxtaposition to the Russian flag is anathema.  It shows, to me anyway, that whoever set up the flags is quite happy to show either their ignorance of what is REALLY going on in Ukraine - which I find somewhat baffling, considering that all FSU people in the USA have easy access to media sources other than RT - or, perhaps more simply, that they endorse Putin's efforts to bring Ukraine back into a modern version of the Soviet Union.

Or, maybe, kids hung up the flags without knowing what the black and orange one was.

[2tallbill]

Or, maybe, kids hung up the flags without knowing what the black and orange one was.

They had an old Soviet Flag up too.

[ML]

I was discussing  this with wifey, and showed her the thread and pics regarding the picnic in Denver.

She immediately noticed that Big Bill was wearing the St. George Ribbon on his shirt.

She said it was certain that he and wife knew that the ribbon represented support for Russian terrorists fighting Ukrainian Nazis in Eastern Ukraine.

[msmob]

She said it was certain that he and wife knew that the ribbon represented support for Russian terrorists fighting Ukrainian Nazis in Eastern Ukraine.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ribbon_of_Saint_George

Clearly predates the 3rd or was it forth time (?)  Ukraine became 'independent' of Moscow

It was - according to Wiki - resurrected in 2005.

I seriously doubt most Russians realise how controversial this symbol is -  nor seek to 'upset' by wearing it ..

[2tallbill]

I was discussing  this with wifey, and showed her the thread and pics regarding the picnic in Denver.

She immediately noticed that Big Bill was wearing the St. George Ribbon on his shirt.

She said it was certain that he and wife knew that the ribbon represented support for Russian terrorists fighting Ukrainian Nazis in Eastern Ukraine.

My wife had a message involving her middle finger about your comment.
The ribbon was about WW2 and they had photos of men who died.

The other photos have Angel Eyes in them so I'm not posting them.
The Soviet flag was in the shows. The Soviet flag wasn't used during for
the events that your wife describes.

There were 8 1/2" x 11" photos of old men who died during the war. There wasn't
anything about the recent events in Ukraine. There were natives from all over
the FSU. They wouldn't have put up with the Ukraine political crap. The conflict
is NOT debated or talked about at these events, not once, not ever. 

[Boethius]

Without getting into a political debate on Russia/Ukraine, the ribbons were not used in Soviet times.  The St. George Ribbon was part of the Order of St. George, and in Tsarist Russia, was a yellow and black ribbon, the most prestigious military honour awarded.  It was dropped by the Soviets, as was everything else from the past, but during WWII, another ribbon was reintroduced.  At May Day parades in Soviet times, only fighting units wore the ribbon. 


The current ribbon was reintroduced by the Russians in the government's policy to reintroduce patriotic feeling among the populace.  It was part of their "nation building" exercise.  So nope, it is not really solely to commemorate the war dead.  The ribbon has been used widely by Russian nationalists and separatists. I can see both sides of the issue -Russian patriots wishing to show their patriotism, and Ukrainian patriots being offended by a symbol used in raining death and destruction on their country, largely under the control and direction of a foreign neighbour.  It's not a good/bad either way, just the way it is.

[jone]

My wife had a message involving her middle finger about your comment.
The ribbon was about WW2 and they had photos of men who died.

The other photos have Angel Eyes in them so I'm not posting them.
The Soviet flag was in the shows. The Soviet flag wasn't used during for
the events that your wife describes.

There were 8 1/2" x 11" photos of old men who died during the war. There wasn't
anything about the recent events in Ukraine. There were natives from all over
the FSU. They wouldn't have put up with the Ukraine political crap. The conflict
is NOT debated or talked about at these events, not once, not ever.

Bill,

Please forgive me for being so explicit in my description.  I do know many of the Russians wear the St. George Ribbon these days as a statement of pride.  It's re-introduction coincided with the Ukrainian conflict so it was picked up by those nationalists.  No one would think anything badly of you or your lovely wife for saluting Russia and her victory over the Nazis in WWII.

[2tallbill]

Bill,

Please forgive me for being so explicit in my description.  I do know many of the Russians wear the St. George Ribbon these days as a statement of pride.  It's re-introduction coincided with the Ukrainian conflict so it was picked up by those nationalists.  No one would think anything badly of you or your lovely wife for saluting Russia and her victory over the Nazis in WWII.

I wasn't offended, I just can't see that everyone was duped. It would have
been easy enough to dupe me, I didn't know the history behind the ribbon
but they wouldn't have duped the Ukrainians and others there. Also everyone
knows that there is a HUGE disagreement about what has happened/happening
in Ukraine and Georgia so they don't discuss it.

They have many meetups throughout the year, with picnics and entertainment
including traditional dancing, music, etc. There are people who own business
businesses that sponsor some of the other events.

They had people who teach children traditional dances and music who wouldn't
be stupid enough to threaten losing a percentage of their potential customers.

That's my two kopecks,

Bill

[tfcrew]

[JayH]

I was discussing  this with wifey, and showed her the thread and pics regarding the picnic in Denver.

She immediately noticed that Big Bill was wearing the St. George Ribbon on his shirt.

She said it was certain that he and wife knew that the ribbon represented support for Russian terrorists fighting Ukrainian Nazis in Eastern Ukraine.

There are plenty of closet Russophobe's here on the forum who are too gutless to openly state their support for Russia in the open forum.A history of  derogatory and anti-Ukrainain posts tells the story .
To wear that ribbon and then post the photo here was not an accident .

[Boethius]

There are lots of people who would make no connection between the ribbon on the Russian nationalists.  So, I think it's unfair to state otherwise, or accuse others of nefarious purposes.

[ML]

I was in Russia two years ago on Victory Day and many people were wearing the ribbons and when I inquired they said that they were wearing the ribbons to show support for the rebels fighting in Donetsk and Lugansk.  . . .  the Ribbon's recent re-emergence.  It was brought out specifically to bolster nationalism and the defeat of the Ukrainian Hitlerites.

My wife has family wounded and friends killed by the Russian terrorists operating in Eastern Ukraine.

And she knows that those who wear the ribbon cheer these deaths and injuries.

[msmob]

It's re-introduction coincided with the Ukrainian conflict so it was picked up by those nationalists. 

No... It was re-introduced in 2005...

[msmob]

There are plenty of closet Russophobe's here on the forum who are too gutless to openly state their support for Russia in the open forum.A history of  derogatory and anti-Ukrainain posts tells the story .
To wear that ribbon and then post the photo here was not an accident .

JayH, 

You may just be / are another of those internet types who 'advise' folks about their behaviour - not having the first clue of their feelings / experiences..

I haven't seen seen ANY post where Beel has supported 'away games' in neighbouring states and he has BEEN to Georgia and Ukraine and retained friendships, there.

  There was a time I hated the Irish Tri-colour flag - as I regarded it as the flag of Irish Terrorism....   a nation that then claimed N.Ireland in it's constitution.

I did not wear the Ribbon on May 9th and no-one was upset.  SC's dad lost both legs at twenty years old, entering Berlin as part of the Soviet Red Army and V's dad was a Soviet 'advisor' on Air-to-air missile systems in N.Vietnam and Syria - that probably took out US / Israeli pilots. 


My personal reason for not wearing the ribbon was the fact it was used in Ukraine by the 'rebels' and - more importantly - to me, at least ... the Soviet Union 'forgot' to 'go home' after liberating folks from one form of Totalitarianism - replacing it with another form - for 45 years. I know folks from Warsaw who rose to fight the Nazis and couldn't go home - the UK and France entered WW2 to 'protect ' Poland - so how 'we' won it eludes me.


BUT.... and this is an important but ..... It was worn by Russians I know for reasons of pride / respect for their forefathers, rather than any 'support' for 'rebels' in Ukraine.

 

[southernX]

i have a  st george ribbon , it was given to me as a bystander  on the footpath in st petersburg in may 2010 during the parade and celeberations to celebrate the date

at that time it was worn by all as aprt of the days celeberations , and i cna say it was impressive to see how many of the old military members wore their uniforms and how people generally showed them respect and gave them flowers etc ,

it had then on that day no linkage to the crimea or  donbass invasion by russia

as we had our russian family members with us that day it was just a family joining in with the locals of st pete to show respect and gratitude to those who served one way or another .my wife born in russia lost her grandfather in the war ,

today she is a citizen of ukraine and does not associate the st george ribbon with the donbass invasion , to her it will always be a symbol of ww2 , great patriotic war may celebrations   

i would not attibute to anyone  the agenda of others , assuming things can often lead you well wide of the mark ime

after may of 2010 i put my st george ribbon on my travel case  when we left st petes  as an  easy way to identify it when collecting my bags off the carousels at bagagge claim ,and as areminder of the day and events there
 in  early 2014 i removed it , not because it meant less to me , but for what it may represent to others in ukraine/russia  and how some might assume wrongly its symbolism on my bag

SX

[ML]

To claim that the St George ribbon is part of celebration to remember soldiers killed in WWII is disingenuous.   Soviet Union celebrations of these men and women started immediately after WWII ended.  For 60 years after WWII, there was no systematic use of the St George ribbon for that purpose.

But in 2005, the St George ribbon came back into usage in the Russian Federation as a tool against Ukraine.  Those who try to hide their true feelings toward Ukraine by claiming an association with the Soviet hero's of WWII are actually dishonoring those hero's.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ribbon_of_Saint_George

During Soviet times, the ribbon held no public significance. The symbol was revived in Russia in 2005 as a response to the pro-democratic Orange Revolution in Ukraine.

In current Russia, the ribbon of Saint George is used by civilians as a patriotic symbol and as a symbol of public support for the Russian government actions against Ukraine, particularly since 2014.

[msmob]

To claim that the St George ribbon is part of celebration to remember soldiers killed in WWII is disingenuous. 

[/quote]

To many Russian people that is ALL it is ...  I posted the link from Wiki up-thread. 

I am no fan of VVP and I assure you - despite my understanding the offence this ribbon causes many Ukrainians - most of those wearing it simply don't wear it believing it will offend Ukrainians.

What is far more offensive - to me - is an oft observed attitude that Ukrainians are the 'same as us' - the Slavic 'thing' and that they are behaving like 'naughty children'

This Saturday we will watch a UK feed of the Eurovision Concert and wish that Ukraine had not so easily fallen for the Russian bait of entering a wheel-chair bound contestant who had entered Crimea illegally, at the last minute.

This has played in Russia as 'Kiev' being the 'bad guys' and it would have been far better to let the lass enter and 'bite on it'

THE UK will probably get 'kicked in the teeth' by Europeans for 'Brexit' and I have no idea why Australia is in 'Europe', again - but it would be funny if they won )

[jone]

I had a scholarly friend of mine, from St. Petersburg, give her understanding of the St. George Ribbon.  Her (politically correct) response was the following:

Me:  What is the significance of the St. George Ribbon?

Her:  A symbol of military prowess and glory.  It represents a holiday on May 9th, as a symbol of the memory of those killed during the war.

[2tallbill]

My wife has family wounded and friends killed by the Russian terrorists operating in Eastern Ukraine.

And she knows that those who wear the ribbon cheer these deaths and injuries.

So you or your wife thinks that I cheer the deaths (and especially the injuries)
of the men, women and children of Eastern Ukraine? and I wear a special
ribbon to identify myself as happy and gleeful of those deaths? That's ridiculous!

[Boethius]

Bill, for Ukrainians, it's akin to wearing a Confederate flag.

[JayH]

From yesterday

"The symbol of the invaders": Rada has banned the St. George ribbon in Ukraine

"St. George ribbon became the symbol in Ukraine of the Russian occupation and aggression. "

Источник: http://www.amn.com.ua/polityka/symvol-okkupantov-rada-zapretyla-georgyevskuyu-lentochku-v-ukrayne/
Источник: http://www.amn.com.ua/polityka/symvol-okkupantov-rada-zapretyla-georgyevskuyu-lentochku-v-ukrayne/