Best laid plans...

[Momus]

In another thread, I offered myself up to the clue bat, so I might as well get started. I've spent a few months researching, soul-searching, and planning before I even decided if I wanted to do this. I've made it 39 years without a divorce settlement. I'll feel like the biggest buffoon in the world if I end up marrying a GCG. There are some things in life I just never want to here, like, "Hey Momus, I got a lapdance from your ex-wife at the Kitty-Kat Klub last night!"

I sent out my first letter less than a week ago...

The problem is, I can already see the very real danger that my plans will be the first casualty of the war. In what follows, I'm using one woman as an example of this. This specific case isn't all that important: chances are, one or both of us will decide we don't like the other all that much, after all. It's the curveballs this case represent for my plans and approach that I want to focus on.

One of my "rules" was that I wasn't going to go "too young." I would limit my search to a 15-year age difference, preferably 10 years. So, of course, last week I get a letter from a 22 year old. She's ridiculously cute, seems very nice, smart, writes a good letter, solid English, has real photos rather than glamour shots. The only reason I hadn't contacted her is that she's too young for my search requirements. Hmm...no problem, I can nip this in the bud. I send her back a letter telling her I'm flattered, but I'm worried about the age difference. What does she most want out of life? If she chooses an older man, is she still going to be happy with him in 10 years, or 20 years? The actual answer to this question doesn't mean a whole lot, of course, but the way she answers it will tell me a lot.

She comes back with just about the perfect response. Okay, she's probably had a lot of practice assuring older guys that they're exactly what she wants. I'll give her the benefit of the doubt, but remain cautious. She's saying all the right things, but I don't know her. Moving on...

Don't fall in love with a photo or letters. Okay, this one's easy enough, otherwise I'd be stalking Jenna Jameson. Yeah, Jenna's never written me a letter, but a picture is worth a thousand words. The problem I'm finding in less than one freaking week is that, while it's easy not to fall in love with a photo, it's pretty damned hard not to play favorites. My 22 year old's letters (we'll call her Luda, since that's not her name) are so far and above what I'm getting from the other women I'm writing, it's hard to maintain interest in the others. Is that the solution? If they aren't measuring up to this week's best, just move on? I'd hate to half-ass a correspondence with a woman who might turn out to be terrific just because I'd rather be talking to my current favorite. Luda wants to move onto webcam chat, too, which will eat up more of my available time for this. And, honestly, I can't say that bothers me a whole lot right now.

Write Many, Visit Many. That's my motto. How the hell am I going to even write many, if Luda is taking up all my time? Even worse, Luda lives in the middle of nowhere, even by FSU standards. Thus, if I decide I want to visit her, it's going to be pretty difficult to have a backup plan. There goes the "visit many" part. Should I suggest that if things don't work out when I meet her, maybe she could hook me up with some of her friends? 

This is just an example of what I'm encountering in my first few days. So the question is, how do you stick to the plan and obey the rules when an unpredictable process starts to go sideways? Do you stick to the rules no matter what? For example, as my travel date approaches, do I just jettison Luda if it turns out that I can't find any backups in her area? That seems rather self-defeating. On the one hand, I think a man has to trust his own judgment enough that he's breaking the rules for the right reasons. On the other hand, though, that's probably EXACTLY what every WOVO and OWW is telling himself as he drives off the cliff...

[ConnerVT]

Perhaps Luda's letters are "so far and above" the others as they are well honed from lots of practice writing to many men so much older than her?

[TheHorseman]

Hi Momus

I am not real sure what your age is, but I would advice againest 22 year olds if you are more than ten years older than her.  Given that you say something about 39 years without a divorce settlement.  I will say that your too old for her (on the average).

Just because she is saying the right things doesn't mean she is the right one and your idea s of "maybe I might miss the right one if I keep talking to her" is a good solid judgement. If she has the equipment to Cam in the middle of nowhere I would really look twice.  I have been to the middle of nowhere Cams are not that easy to come by there and computor time is expensive to them in the cafes.  

Your in the right place to ask questions.  I personally like to go to the little out of the way places to. But I go there as a Teacher.  It changes the rules, gives you more time and the women don't look at you in the same way.  But that is just me.

Will

[Momus]

Hey guys, thanks for the feedback. I should probably reiterate that I'm less interested in the specific details of my correspondence with Luda than I am in the potential problems it highlights. Again, as I said, I've been writing to her for less than a week, so it'd be kinda silly to waste bandwidth on it at this point.

Your responses were similar enough in theme, though, that it raises another interesting question. Obviously, we have to keep a clear head and be alert for red flags. But to what extent is assuming the worst and interpreting every possible thing as a red flag actually a viable strategy? Do you/did you guys actually do this?

* Her letters are more interesting than other women? She's probably a very practiced scammer. It couldn't be that she's just a more interesting person.

* She has a webcam? She's probably a solo girl with her own pay-per-view site. It couldn't be that she's from a well-to-do family (by her country's standards) and has her own computer and Internet access.

* The sex was great? She's probably a prostitute...

Obviously, I haven't had sex with Luda, but that seems like the logical conclusion of this approach. So do y'all really do this, or is this just a technique to make sure the newbies have considered all of the possibilities and are alert to red flags?

Thanks!

[SANDRO43]

Momus, why don't you run Luda through the ScamCard ? Not infallible, of course, but its questions could give you a few extra insights.

[catzenmouse]

Momus,

 Welcome! (and as KenC said in the other thread, you are less of a newbie than most who come this way)

 Your thinking is going in the right direction. With Luda you have only spent some time so maybe see where it goes. If she is into the scam you will find out soon enough.

 One thing that many of us here advocate is to pick where you want to go then look for ladies in that general location. Get some names of agencies in the area ,so you will have your back up plan if needed, write a few letters and see what happens.

 Probably the best thing you can do is to not have any expectations for this first trip. Just go, get the feel of the country and the people and if you happen to meet someone who peaks your interest then all the better.

Ken

[Momus]

Hey Sandro, she scored a 42 ("Probably not a scammer.") I think it's still way too early for the test to mean much, though. She might ask for money in her next letter.

Ken, thanks for weighing in and for your nice welcome. It's a very good point about picking one city and not straying from it. I won't be surprised if that's what I end up doing. I started by casting a wide net because this is my first trip and I didn't have any preference for one city over the next. I probably should have just thrown a dart at the map. And you're right: I have no expectations at this point. I'm going to be in Europe on business anyway, and it will make a fun vacation and hopefully give me a little experience that will serve well in the future.

[TheHorseman]

* Her letters are more interesting than other women? She's probably a very practiced scammer. It couldn't be that she's just a more interesting person.

* She has a webcam? She's probably a solo girl with her own pay-per-view site. It couldn't be that she's from a well-to-do family (by her country's standards) and has her own computer and Internet access.

* The sex was great? She's probably a prostitute...

I can see from what you have posted in here and the other thread that you have the ablity to ask the right question and seemingly give yourself the correct answers.  My question is:  What is your Real question? 

Yes, she could be just more interesting that someone else!
Yes, She might be well off and have her own computer!
And No, great sex doesn't make her a prostitute!

Maybe some of us do look for the red flags.  Experience has taught us to.  But the biggest Red flag was the age thing.  Your ideas to go and look around without too much expectations is good and having a back up plan is a great idea too. 

I'm going to be in Europe on business anyway, and it will make a fun vacation and hopefully give me a little experience that will serve well in the future.

In my (Limited) Experience in Russia.  Time will be your problem.  The odds that you're going to meet someone and make that connection in a short time are very slim.  Even if you write to them before going it might take a while to bond enough once there to get anywhere.  And just walking around looking for someone when you get there has never worked for me.  Especially if you don't speak very good Russian.

[PeeWee]

I don't think that you want to make an impulsive decision now. You seem to be a smart guy so why not let the big head resume control of your thought process, I do suspect that you have more logic active in your little head than most guys do have in their big head, but still the big head is the one that will save your hide time and again. How can you let her dominate your time? You are at the stage where one plays the field and you are ready to pack it in after just one inning? This is a nine inning game that may go into extra innings, just ask Turbodude about that.

Here is me. She is not more than 15 years different in age. Speaks very good English. Has a job. Has not more than one kid who is at least 16 years old. Lives in a large city so that I can get there with minimum time spent doing it. I don't want to be traveling more than 15 hours start to finish. So I have a list and if the pretty face with the good letters does not match my simple and easy to achieve requirements then I move on. I do the WOVO and that has worked great for me these past 5 or so years. I have not been scamed yet but there is a first time. I am watching for it all of the time.

Onward, Man! You got lots of time to figure this out. I'd say not to let the first chicken that struts out of the hen house sway you in your quest.

Peewee

[RussianGal]

.. So the question is, how do you stick to the plan and obey the rules when an unpredictable process starts to go sideways? Do you stick to the rules no matter what?...

I say PeeWee has a good grasp on the matter:

....Here is me. She is not more than 15 years different in age. Speaks very good English. Has a job. Has not more than one kid who is at least 16 years old. Lives in a large city so that I can get there with minimum time spent doing it....

If certain things are important to you (such as, for example, her not being younger than 30, her having or not having kid/s, etc), you should not compromize and settle for less. Picture your dream girl and look for her, she`s out there somewhere.

When I asked my hubby why he decided to write me, he said: 'Besides being ......, you met my most important requirements: having real photos (not model shots), not smoking and speaking fluent English'. Sounds simple, but that what was important to Him.   

[BillyB]

If the 22 YO is into you with no red flags, I see no reason to drop her. Would you rather visit a 29 YO who has shown a half assed interest in you? Now that would be taking a chance and you'd probably come back with a trip report saying it didn't work out.

Call the woman and call her often. A woman who is into you would be thrilled and excited everytime you call. You can judge her interest in you by her tone of voice. While an insincere woman or one who is not into you may be excited too by the novelty of your first calls, but they would not be able to maintain a high level of interest in you over time.

I am 36 and my fiancee 24. One thing I notice of our and other successful relationships with much bigger age differences is that the woman is into her man. She adores him, respects him, and truly loves him. I've read enough from men who talk about their wives and the women who married older men on these forums to know some of the secrets of their success. No matter, young or older mature woman, if she's not into you, your marriage will probably fall apart when she's sees a man she could get into to.

Just make sure Luda is not infatuated with you and she actually knows what she wants in life. Continue to write other women because Luda could drop you like a hot potato if she feels you're not into her or she gets into another man. You're not in the dating stage yet so you're a long way off from deciding on marriage. Don't sweat it.

[Turboguy]

PeeWee, how did I get into this?     I guess I could be one of the best experts on what not to do.  I definately have a game that went into extra innings a long, long time ago.

Frankly Momus, since you are just starting you will fall in love with a lot more gals before you get very far into it and I have a feeling the one you end up with won't be Luda. (I wish you would have picked a different hypothetical name)  

I think when you are making your first trip the ones that will really hit you as wonderful are more likely to be the ones you meet just because you are there and the ones that have you awake at night dreaming of them will turn out to be duds in real life.  Take that as the voice of experience, lots and lots of experience.   By the way, I just dropped a whole pile of Luda clones because I knew it was just not going to work.  As beautiful and wonderful as they were in their letters and photos, I knew I was just wasting my time.

I think the advice you have received so far is great.  Write a lot of gals,  concentrate in a few areas, go see them and have a back up plan.  One of the problems you will encounter are that the gals that really have you turned on willl be scattered over a big chunk of geography.   If meeting them is not practical, don't waste your time writing to them.

I will agree with the others.  You seem like you have a pretty good head on your shoulders.  I think you will do fine.

[Momus]

How can you let her dominate your time? You are at the stage where one plays the field and you are ready to pack it in after just one inning? This is a nine inning game that may go into extra innings, just ask Turbodude about that.

Yeah, I hear you. I probably just need an attitude adjustment. I'm looking at this stage as something that's supposed to be fun, when I should probably just look at it as necessary groundwork I have to lay. I guess it's just a discipline thing: I can have a great conversation with Luda, or I can return letters to some other women that are still at the "I to like active rest, the nature, home coziness, and cook tasty dishes" stage. I'll quit whining now.

So I have a list and if the pretty face with the good letters does not match my simple and easy to achieve requirements then I move on.

So if a seemingly terrific woman contacted you but she was 16 years younger than you, you'd really discard her just like that? I believe you, but I'm not sure I'm that good at following rules. I mean, like I said in the original post, I *have* all those rules...I'm just not sure I can follow them as strictly as you.

Thanks PeeWee, very helpful.

[Momus]

(I wish you would have picked a different hypothetical name)

LOL! Sorry bro...

[Turboguy]

I had forgotten that part but I guess when I first started it was fun.  Now I think it is more like work than work is.   I seem to spend all my free time trying to maintain correspondence with a bunch of gals while I sort out meetings. 

It does become fun when you think you have met the right one though.  I remember being quite happy when I met Luda (not a fictitious name) and could quit writing other gals.  Unfortunately it did not work out in the long run but that was my own fault for ignoring too many red flags.

You do need to do the groundwork though and it seems like you have a good start.  I think it is easy to fall in love with a photo and some letters particularly when you are just starting.  If the age difference between you and your Luda is only 16 years I think I would keep working on her and not toss her aside.  I am not saying a difference of 16 years is nothing but it is not unreasonable.  Keep writing and don't put all your eggs in one basket.

[PeeWee]

I had forgotten that part but I guess when I first started it was fun.  Now I think it is more like work than work is.   I seem to spend all my free time trying to maintain correspondence with a bunch of gals while I sort out meetings. 

It does become fun when you think you have met the right one though.  I remember being quite happy when I met Luda (not a fictitious name) and could quit writing other gals.  Unfortunately it did not work out in the long run but that was my own fault for ignoring too many red flags.

You do need to do the groundwork though and it seems like you have a good start.  I think it is easy to fall in love with a photo and some letters particularly when you are just starting.  If the age difference between you and your Luda is only 16 years I think I would keep working on her and not toss her aside.  I am not saying a difference of 16 years is nothing but it is not unreasonable.  Keep writing and don't put all your eggs in one basket.

Women are adept and getting a guy turned around backwards. When you are off balance like that you don't use your God given reason very well. A guy can get all goofy when a young and hot lady bats her eyelids at you. You will usually find her hand on your wallet sooner or later.

Somewhere in time I got the attitude, when I see them coming, that has me asking myself, "Yah, so what else is new?" I preceed with caution.  But I do proceed. Never know when she might just be the real deal. If she is not then I go back to the, "Yah, so what else is new?" and look for the next one coming along.
You want to play it out and see where it leads you.
Peewee

[KenC]

Momus,
You poor baby!  Such problems!!!!  Having a 22 year old hottie stalking you on the net!!  (Now if that aint the most ridiculous thing I ever heard, go show her photo to your buddies and ask fro their sympathy!)

OK, enough comedy.  What would you do if this "Luda" hit on you in a bar?  On the street?  Or any where locally?  I know for sure that you would not blow her off.  More than likely you would pursue the conversation and see where it led.  Do the same thing with your Russian Luda.  You can write down a list of rules and specifications that your future wife MUST fulfill or you can just set out to have fun and meet some interesting women.  Where that will take you, who the hell knows?  BUT YOUR SURE GONNA HAVE ONE HELL OF A LOT OF FUN DOING IT!

The choice is yours.  You can lay out a very strategic "battle plan" and never deviate one iota from it and still come up empty.  Or you can have the time of your life and maybe meet the woman of your dreams.  Practical? ......Schmactical!!  How can you apply logic to matters of the heart?  I say you can't.

Almost 8 years ago, I acted impulsively.  I picked up the phone and called a girl waaay too young and waay too beautiful for me.  Then I illogically got on a plane and went to meet her in person.  God knows I did none of the proper due diligence that should have been required.  I was just being a man and she was just being a woman.  I was charming enough to win her heart.  And she was sincere enough to eliminate my fears (of having such a young and beautiful wife).  In a couple of weeks we will celebrate our seventh anniversary and we are as madly in love today as we were back then.  It is scary to think that I may have missed out on the love of my life if I had just been a little bit more logical or practical.  Oh, and by the way, she is still 25 years younger! (That never seems to change)
DisclaimerI would never give this advice to a guy that didn't "know his way around women."  You seem to have been around the block a few times, so I say go for it to you.  If this young girl is playing you, you will soon know it.  Best of luck,
KenC

[snowm]

Hey there Momus,

I'm sort of in the same boat as you, I'm 33 and the girl I'm most interested in, just made 20 in June, and I'm in no way indending on discarding her just because of the age difference without having met her in person first.
If you like her go for it, talk with her on the phone, and visit her on her territory, thats the only way to find out if she's the one. But i would advise you to keep a back-up plan, not being a scammer or CGC is not everything in this picture, suppose there just no chemistry on her part or on your part (yes that can happen too).
Contact other girls that interest you in the same area, even if the letters you exchange with them are sort of pen-palish one never know how things go when there a face to face meeting.

Best of luck!

[jb]

Momus,

Welcome to the board.

Maybe I missed it but I am curious as to how this Internet romance got it's start.  I gather you didn't write to a 22 y.o. girl initially, because you've made the point here quite clear that you thought that was too young for you.  Did you place an on-line advert somewhere and she broke the ice and wrote to you first?  If you placed an ad, did you specify a target age group?  I'd consider it a red flag if she ignored your age group requirements and wrote to you anyhow.

Also, is she living in Russia or Ukraine?  This is important only because you mentioned she lives in a hard to visit region, (hopefully it's not Lugansk).  Being one or the other will help to evaluate the *desperation* factor which may motivate her.  Although it should be noted that the hinterlands of both Russia and the Ukraine are both still very poor and economically depressed.

You've mentioned that she wants to move your personal communications onto a webcam, frankly, I find that to be somewhat unusual.  You also mentioned that her letters were well written, in English.  That is also very unusual for a girl so young who is not from a major commerce center and working in a job which requires a high level of English.  They study English in school, but that level of English proficiency in not usually attained with simple school work.  IOW; who has she been practicing her English with?  One of the things which most often confound Russian English learners is the articles of speech, i.e., the definitive *the*, *of*, and *a*, are not present in Russian, and it is not uncommon for Russians, even with years of English speaking backgrounds to make untidy grammar mistakes because of this. 

If she has a computer with webcam capability at home she is fairly affluent, compared to most Russians living out in the hinterland, the cost of high speed internet is still rather high compared to salaries therefore it's safe to assume she also has a home telephone.  Has she given you a phone number and encouraged you to give her a call?  A personal call is the only way you can assure yourself that she's the same person writing all those well crafted letters.

You are being highly sensible to be suspicious of her motives.  This thing has only been going on for a week so it's too early to predict, but I'd not be overly surprised if the money letter didn't come pretty soon.  I'm not suggesting you kick her to the curb at this point, if I were you I might continue to exchange friendly letters for the time being, however I fear her letters will shortly be closed with *kisses* and declarations of love.   The instant you declare undieing love and affection for any of the photos she had sent, I suspect you'd be in for some serious heartbreak.

Be very, very careful with this one my friend.

[ConnerVT]

Gee, jb, I thought that's what I wrote in my one sentence reply immediately after the original post.  You need to learn how to conserve bandwidth, my friend.  Unlike petroleum, the Earth doesn't have an unlimited supply... 

 

[Turboguy]

jb, I think you made a good point with the web cam.  To me that is very unusual.  I have written more gals than the average 10 guys put together and have never had on as about web cam.  It sounds fishy to me too.  I know there is starting to be some web cam in some of the agencies and I have always stayed away from agency gals but it still seems odd to me.  

That might be where the money issue will come up.  My darling Momus, The agency will charge me $ 10.00 an hour for the webcam.  My pay is low honey can you send me enough money for 20 hours of web cam with you.  Someone living in a remote area is less likely

I am not saying she can't be for real or suggesting dropping her, just keep the rule in mind to never send money to someone you have not met.  The other suggestion is to keep your dreams in check and keep exploring your options.

I mentioned that I just dropped a bunch of gals who I think were scammers even though they wrote forever without asking for money.  One thing I noticed they had in common was they were all from remote areas that would be hard to get to.  I have no idea where their scam was going.  My best guess was that they were trying to get to the point where I wanted to meet them and since they were in the middle of nowwhere they would offer to meet me someplace like Moscow if I sent them the money to travel but I never got that far with them.

[TheHorseman]

Gee, jb, I thought that's what I wrote in my one sentence reply immediately after the original post. 

I'm with Conner

I said the samething (Give or take) as jb..... Including the part about the webcam.  RED FLAG..... RED FLAG

[PeeWee]

jb, I think you made a good point with the web cam.  To me that is very unusual.  I have written more gals than the average 10 guys put together and have never had on as about web cam.  It sounds fishy to me too.  I know there is starting to be some web cam in some of the agencies and I have always stayed away from agency gals but it still seems odd to me.  

That might be where the money issue will come up.  My darling Momus, The agency will charge me $ 10.00 an hour for the webcam.  My pay is low honey can you send me enough money for 20 hours of web cam with you.  Someone living in a remote area is less likely

I am not saying she can't be for real or suggesting dropping her, just keep the rule in mind to never send money to someone you have not met.  The other suggestion is to keep your dreams in check and keep exploring your options.

I mentioned that I just dropped a bunch of gals who I think were scammers even though they wrote forever without asking for money.  One thing I noticed they had in common was they were all from remote areas that would be hard to get to.  I have no idea where their scam was going.  My best guess was that they were trying to get to the point where I wanted to meet them and since they were in the middle of nowwhere they would offer to meet me someplace like Moscow if I sent them the money to travel but I never got that far with them.

We just had a lad last month who went to Paris to meet a ghost. Best to go there to meet her before you get too upside about her. I have the opportunity to meet an RW for the first time mid August. We are going to meet in Prague. I will buy her ticket with my credit card. She cannot return a ticket for cash if it has been paid for by my card. As you know the credit goes back to the card. I also arranged for her to arrive in Prague 2 days ahead of me. I will call the hotel before I board a plane to see if she is really there. If she is not there then Peewee stays put and then uses his week of free time to find another.

This may sound to you as if I do not trust her. After reading some of the things that I have read I can say that I will remain cautious until I see the whites of her eyes.

Jb, Turbo..and the rest have given their best advices.

Peewee

[BC]

I'm surprised nobody mentioned:

"Until you've met you're only penpals.."

Anything more is pure fantasy.

[TheHorseman]

I will buy her ticket with my credit card. She cannot return a ticket for cash if it has been paid for by my card. As you know the credit goes back to the card. I also arranged for her to arrive in Prague 2 days ahead of me. I will call the hotel before I board a plane to see if she is really there. If she is not there then Peewee stays put and then uses his week of free time to find another.

Peewee, I have to admit that is a sure fire way to make sure. 

Me on the other hand, I have gone to meet one woman at a time and found that to be a hugh waste of time and money in the long run. 

I have also gone blind as a English (Okie) Teacher.  I met a lot of people that were happy to set me up with good women and even though that didn't work out with my Luda (Real name), I think it was the best route for me.  I have plans to go back.  But my plans are to stay longer than most people.  I will find what I am looking for when I get there in the conventional way.